Which Wings are ‘Untouchable’?

[superstarsingh 23]

Lilja is untouchable...for all 29 other GMs.

[ZatasGirl40 0]

so basically i'm overruled then eh?

whatever...i still would never trade hank.

[HenrikRules40 14]

Nope, Zets can go. haha, Bring It.

[BlakChamber 8]

Well for what it's worth, at least Z has more goals for the season than Crosby and is also a strong candidate for Selke (which I believe neither wonderkid is). Z certainly is among the top 5 or so all-around players in the league.

Zetterberg has 26 goals to Crosby's 25. But Crosby has 32 more assists and is 7 years younger. He's also a +13 so it isn't like he's costing his team goals.

Look, I like Zetterberg, he's probably my favorite player on the Wings. But if the Wings had to chance to trade him for Crosby, they'd be insane not to do it.

[eva unit zero 271]

Honestly? No way. Steve Yzerman was not as good as Gretzky and Mario...im sorry but thats not even up for debate imo.

Yzerman may not have been as good as Mario or Wayne offensively, but he was FAR better defensively.

Yzerman is the only player in league history to score 150 points and get at least one first place selke vote in the same season--and quite possibly will be the only player to ever do that.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I like Hank and think he's the guy for the Wings to build the team around, but if we could swap him for Crosby, I'd do it faster than you could say "Hank."

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Han--

s***.

[Guest Crymson]

Yzerman may not have been as good as Mario or Wayne offensively, but he was FAR better defensively.

Yzerman is the only player in league history to score 150 points and get at least one first place selke vote in the same season--and quite possibly will be the only player to ever do that.

If you'd traded Yzerman, you'd have traded away the team's heart and soul--these things do matter.

[FinWing 26]

Yzerman may not have been as good as Mario or Wayne offensively, but he was FAR better defensively.

Yzerman is the only player in league history to score 150 points and get at least one first place selke vote in the same season--and quite possibly will be the only player to ever do that.

Thank you, I was wondering if anyone but me understood this.

And trading Z for Crosby would be flat out stupid, you can't just replace a your best player with someone else (no matter who) and expect things to go smoothly just like that. There would be serious repercussions and effects on team spirit, stability and all that. It's not a way to build and manage a team.

Yeah I know Crosby has more assists and is younger but Z isn't exactly pondering retirement either.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Thank you, I was wondering if anyone but me understood this.

And trading Z for Crosby would be flat out stupid, you can't just replace a your best player with someone else (no matter who) and expect things to go smoothly just like that. There would be serious repercussions and effects on team spirit, stability and all that. It's not a way to build and manage a team.

That kind of stuff would take a month, tops, to smooth out. Lots of players have been added and subtracted to the Wings and life went on.

People talk about how you can't trade away Lidstrom or Z because of all the intangibles they bring. So Crosby's just a points robot? No "intangibles" from him either? Sure, the locker room would be different. It's not like the players would go into a deep depression and not speak to each other if there was a trade like that.

[BlakChamber 8]

Thank you, I was wondering if anyone but me understood this.

And trading Z for Crosby would be flat out stupid, you can't just replace a your best player with someone else (no matter who) and expect things to go smoothly just like that. There would be serious repercussions and effects on team spirit, stability and all that. It's not a way to build and manage a team.

I can see it now. Zetterberg gone, everyone in the locker room, crying their eyes out. Crosby walks into the room, everyone turns their back to him. Pavel tells Holland that he'll sign for whatever, because he has no will to live anymore since Zetterberg is gone

[ZwedishWing 0]

That kind of stuff would take a month, tops, to smooth out. Lots of players have been added and subtracted to the Wings and life went on.

People talk about how you can't trade away Lidstrom or Z because of all the intangibles they bring. So Crosby's just a points robot? No "intangibles" from him either? Sure, the locker room would be different. It's not like the players would go into a deep depression and not speak to each other if there was a trade like that.

I don't buy this way of looking at it. If an organization starts trading their best, most loyal and hard working players against the players will (unless the player underperforms or causing trouble in some way), they send a message to all other players in the team as well.

"You are nothing but merchandise to us! It doesn't matter what you do or how much you fight for the team cause we will trade you anyway."

Result will be that you end up with a bunch of really good hockey players only playing for themselves rather than for the team. That's not the way to win titles in my opinion.

[betterREDthandead 58]

I don't buy this way of looking at it. If an organization starts trading their best, most loyal and hard working players against the players will (unless the player underperforms or causing trouble in some way), they send a message to all other players in the team as well.

"You are nothing but merchandise to us! It doesn't matter what you do or how much you fight for the team cause we will trade you anyway."

Result will be that you end up with a bunch of really good hockey players only playing for themselves rather than for the team. That's not the way to win titles in my opinion.

I do think the players understand that the NHL is a business. It's good to have loyalty to your players and all, but come on. The NBA and NHL have been looking for successors to Jordan and Gretzky for a decade now. The NBA is still looking. The NHL found theirs, and he wears #87. Henrik Zetterberg is an excellent player and might even be a Hall of Famer. Sidney Crosby is going to be a legend. If Crosby plays to age 38 like Gretzky did, he'll be second on the all-time scoring list. If Zetterberg plays til 38 he's got a decent chance of cracking the top 50. This isn't a comparison of Yzerman to Mario - Zetterberg will NEVER get anywhere near that much production. It's more like Mike Modano to Mario.

[Wingsfan31 0]

Again, I have to disagree with the sentiment that intangibles don't matter. You don't think that Yzerman's willingness to accept more responsibility defensively when Scotty came in had a big effect on the team and, really, the franchise? You don't think that Yzerman scoring goals against Vancouver in '02 with one knee inspired the team?

Mario and Wayne were world-class whiners, not just on the ice but off it. Mario bitched and bitched about the obstruction, all Yzerman did was help lead his team to 3 Cups in that era. Crosby complains, Zetterberg puts his shoulder down and soldiers on. Ovechkin runs his mouth on the ice, Zetterberg works the corners in the offensive zone and kills penalties.

These things do matter. If you've ever played hockey at a high level you know that talent is held in much less regard than leadership and sacking up in big games. Granted, none of Zetterberg, Corsby or Ovechkin have played many big games as of yet, but Hank was one of a handful of guys who actually showed up last playoffs, along with Lang and, *surprise*, a hobbled Steve Yzerman.

Stats are pretty and all, but the truth is championships are generally won with qualities you can't quantify. Let me frame it this way, even with the Colts having won the Super Bowl this season, do you think the Pats would trade Brady for Manning? I rest my case.

[FinWing 26]

That kind of stuff would take a month, tops, to smooth out. Lots of players have been added and subtracted to the Wings and life went on.

People talk about how you can't trade away Lidstrom or Z because of all the intangibles they bring. So Crosby's just a points robot? No "intangibles" from him either? Sure, the locker room would be different. It's not like the players would go into a deep depression and not speak to each other if there was a trade like that.

I can see it now. Zetterberg gone, everyone in the locker room, crying their eyes out. Crosby walks into the room, everyone turns their back to him. Pavel tells Holland that he'll sign for whatever, because he has no will to live anymore since Zetterberg is gone

For the record, I didn't say anything like that. Those are your own exaggerations and propositions. Sure Wings have traded players but we're talking about the Yzermans and Zetterbergs, not just any players. You seriously can't claim that trading one of them would be just another trade.

How can you create any team identity and cohesion if you get rid of your top players? Gimme a break. There's no way Wings would have been a Cup contender for such a long time unless they kept hold of their top players and created an environment of trust and stability.

You talk like you have quite a bit experience of playing for a professional sports team.

I don't buy this way of looking at it. If an organization starts trading their best, most loyal and hard working players against the players will (unless the player underperforms or causing trouble in some way), they send a message to all other players in the team as well.

"You are nothing but merchandise to us! It doesn't matter what you do or how much you fight for the team cause we will trade you anyway."

Result will be that you end up with a bunch of really good hockey players only playing for themselves rather than for the team. That's not the way to win titles in my opinion.

Again, I have to disagree with the sentiment that intangibles don't matter. You don't think that Yzerman's willingness to accept more responsibility defensively when Scotty came in had a big effect on the team and, really, the franchise? You don't think that Yzerman scoring goals against Vancouver in '02 with one knee inspired the team?

Mario and Wayne were world-class whiners, not just on the ice but off it. Mario bitched and bitched about the obstruction, all Yzerman did was help lead his team to 3 Cups in that era. Crosby complains, Zetterberg puts his shoulder down and soldiers on. Ovechkin runs his mouth on the ice, Zetterberg works the corners in the offensive zone and kills penalties.

These things do matter. If you've ever played hockey at a high level you know that talent is held in much less regard than leadership and sacking up in big games. Granted, none of Zetterberg, Corsby or Ovechkin have played many big games as of yet, but Hank was one of a handful of guys who actually showed up last playoffs, along with Lang and, *surprise*, a hobbled Steve Yzerman.

Stats are pretty and all, but the truth is championships are generally won with qualities you can't quantify. Let me frame it this way, even with the Colts having won the Super Bowl this season, do you think the Pats would trade Brady for Manning? I rest my case.

Both of you, I couldn't agree more. I don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

Edited February 13, 2007 by FinWing

[OsGOD 3]

Thank you, I was wondering if anyone but me understood this.

And trading Z for Crosby would be flat out stupid, you can't just replace a your best player with someone else (no matter who) and expect things to go smoothly just like that. There would be serious repercussions and effects on team spirit, stability and all that. It's not a way to build and manage a team.

Yeah I know Crosby has more assists and is younger but Z isn't exactly pondering retirement either.

As soon as Crosby got his 1st goal and 15th assist... People would be asking, "Zetter- who?"

Obladee--- Obladah --- Life goes On!

Edited February 13, 2007 by OsGOD

[betterREDthandead 58]

Both of you, I couldn't agree more. I don't get what's so hard to understand about this.

And I don't get what's so hard to understand about this:

Crosby will be a legend and mentioned in the same breath as Gretzky and Howe.

Zetterberg will not.

The Panthers' top player is Olli Jokinen. He's an excellent player. You think they would give two s***s about locker room cohesion if for some stupid reason the Pens offered up Crosby? You think the Kings wouldn't trade Frolov in a heartbeat?

Lemme ask this. Draper's been a part of the Wings' locker room as long as anyone. If anyone on that team is important to locker room cohesion and togetherness and stability and all that stuff, it's him. Would you trade Draper for Crosby?

You talk like you have quite a bit experience of playing for a professional sports team.

So do you.

[toby91_ca 620]

Mario and Wayne were world-class whiners, not just on the ice but off it. Mario bitched and bitched about the obstruction, all Yzerman did was help lead his team to 3 Cups in that era.

Yzerman whined quite a bit as well, he even joked about it in his jersey retirement speach.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

I can't believe this discussion is still going on.

Like I said, Z is a great player and one of my favorites on the team. But we're talking about trading him for a 19 year old phenom here. If the opportunity came up, you do what's best for the team.

As for trading players "against their will," that's how the NHL works. A downside of being a professional athlete is that you can get traded away to a different city at a moments notice. The upside is playing the game you love and making millions of dollars doing it.

[toby91_ca 620]

I can't believe this discussion is still going on.

Like I said, Z is a great player and one of my favorites on the team. But we're talking about trading him for a 19 year old phenom here. If the opportunity came up, you do what's best for the team.

As for trading players "against their will," that's how the NHL works. A downside of being a professional athlete is that you can get traded away to a different city at a moments notice. The upside is playing the game you love and making millions of dollars doing it.

I'm not sure why it is still going on either, but mostly since it would never happen. What's the point in discussing?

[Wingsfan31 0]

Yzerman whined quite a bit as well, he even joked about it in his jersey retirement speach.

Oh, I agree, but his complaining was generally contained to on the ice. I think that the majority of players complain on the ice. What irked me was Mario whining about the obstruction and whatnot and how the game wasn't fun anymore, yada yada. I'm not one of those people who think Yzerman was this infallible paragon of virtue but he was always there to answer questions, took responsibility for the team's, and his own, play and usually didn't try to obscure the issues by creating controversies are making pariahs out of the officials, which Mario certainly did do.

[FinWing 26]

So do you.

Well, some of us actually have that experience. Not that I've ever played for an organisation nearly as big as any NHL team but anyway.

And about Drapes, sure he's a solid player and served us great but what upside does he have? He's seen his best years already. Will he have a jersey retirement here or be remembered as one of NHLs best players? (I think you agree Sid, Ovie and Z most likely will)

However, why are we even debating? Obviously we can't agree on this no matter what.

I see what you're saying but I don't like to look at things from such a simplistic perspective.

[betterREDthandead 58]

However, why are we even debating? Obviously we can't agree on this no matter what.

Cause it's fun. I'm having fun, anyway. Which is why I'm gonna blast ahead much better than doing the work I'm supposed to be doing.

Anyway, the Draper point just goes to show that at some point, those mythical locker room intangibles take a back seat to production. Obviously in my opinion, that covers just about anyone. Because, you mentioned Crosby, Ovechkin, and Zetterberg in the same sentence. I promise you, 10-15 years from now, nobody will do that. It's like saying Gretzky, Mario, Modano. Modano's a terrific player. He's not even in the conversation when it comes to the all-time greats. Crosby will be.

[OsGOD 3]

Anyway, the Draper point just goes to show that at some point, those mythical locker room intangibles take a back seat to production. Obviously in my opinion, that covers just about anyone. Because, you mentioned Crosby, Ovechkin, and Zetterberg in the same sentence.

Really people outside of the Wings org are actually putting Zeta in the same conversation as Crosby and Ovechkin? I always heard the big three of the hockey world to be, Crosby, Stills and Nash.. Wait strike that! Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin.

I agree with your point.

[BlakChamber 8]

Really people outside of the Wings org are actually putting Zeta in the same conversation as Crosby and Ovechkin? I always heard the big three of the hockey world to be, Crosby, Stills and Nash.. Wait strike that! Crosby, Ovechkin and Malkin.

I agree with your point.

Crosby Stills and Nash made some good music, but Neil Young is head and shoulders above the rest of them.

Anyway, I'm in agreement with BRTD. Zetterberg is a good player and I think he'll be a good guy to build a team around. But he's not going to be mentioned in the same breath as Crosby and Ovechkin when it's all done.

I wonder what the results would be if you went to a generally hockey forum, like HFBoards and ran a poll asking if people if they would trade Zetterberg for Crosby, how many would say no. I doubt many, no matter what the alleged intangibles are.