Wombat

Couple things: Lidstrom NEVER dominated offensively, he was one of the better offensive dmen during much of his career, but he never dominated.  The better argument is consistency and longevity I suppose.  He did finish top 2 scoring for dmen for 5 years in a row, but never lead anyone else by that significant of a margin.
With Orr, dominate is probably not a strong enough word, Gretzky is the only player that dominated the competition like Orr.  Orr lead dmen is scoring for 7 straight years with the following points between him and #2 in those years: 9, 76, 76, 44, 47, 40, 59...that's domination.  It's also important to understand that 44 more points isn't Orr scoring 170pts and #2 scoring 126, it's Orr scoring 100 and number 2 scoring 56...he was doubling #2's output a lot of years.
Scoring was definitely higher in Orr's day, but not as significant as most would think (during Orr's career, GPG was 6.3, during Lidstrom's it was 5.7).
Edit: also, I can only go by what I've heard and read and saw people say, but suggesting Orr was all offensive an no defense is false, he was known as one of, if not the best defensively during his time as well.

This doesn't make a lot of sense though, doesn't this mean we should never really have a discussion of best of all-time since the prior eras wouldn't really have a chance.  Does this mean Crosby is the best player of all-time?  Or is Gretzky still in the conversation since his domination against the rest of the league was so wide?
I think it's fair to discount some raw stats for eras, but you do need to factor in qualifiers.  I could say that it would be scary to see Crosby playing in the mid-80s against those goalies....but that's not fair...why would he have modern equipment while the goalies are still stuck with their 80s equipment?  I know the goalie position has evolved quite a bit beyond just equipment as well though.  Point being, you can look at 100pts in 1985 not meaning the same as 100pts today to compare a player, but the best way to assess "best of all time" is to assess how each stacks up against their competition at the time.

This isn't even close.  Orr is likely the second best hockey player of all-time and a player who changed the game.  One of only a few generational talents in hockey history.  One of the most important athletes in sports history.  
You rank Doug Harvey behind Paul "I'm not a forward" Coffey?
All of us here are Wings fans.  That's not a good excuse for picking Lidstrom.  This isn't a poll asking about who you like more.  
You could argue that his last Norris trophy and the one in 2003 should have gone to someone else (especially 2003).  It all evens out.  

and you can act fanboyish all you want, since you are happy with every move of course you call everyone who sees a flaw in the masters plan a hater.....Although not having a number 1 center, number 1 defenseman and no star (not even talking about superstars) on the team would have most realistic people concerned.The Nielsen contract is too long for what he brings, period. This is a guy who can work great behind a stud center and with a sniper on his line. Do the Wings have that ? No. It's the same BS as the Ericson in Vancouver signing he doesn't help them long-term in fact he is going to hurt their chances Patrick, Liljekren by the time the canucks could be good again, he will be a 6 mill anchor...just like Nielsen will be.
Still amazed that Anaheim and Detroit can't seem to workout a deal, ducks are screaming for more offense and wings are screaming for a quality defenseman. Either Holland and Murray really can't stand each other or Anaheim has a lower internal budget than some of us believe
p.s.: wanna know what happens to teams that continuously refuse to accept roster flaws..look no further than the Leafs before Shanahan brought in Babcock, Lou and that drafting guru and of course the canucks Boa Horvat , Tanev and then what?...yep.

It's a great point... who cares about trying to get to a 3-decade playoff streak when 53% of teams make the playoffs! It's not impressive at all! By random chance a team will make 30 consecutive playoffs 1 out of 186,949,330 chances, so of course that's not impressive! Phooey to that.
It's CLEARLY much more important to try to tank to the 10th overall pick rather than sneak into the playoffs and get the 15th overall pick. I mean, we as Red Wings fans know for a FACT that it's impossible to get franchise altering players without having the absolute highest picks possible! Who would want 2008 15th overall Erik Karlsson over 10th overall Cody Hodgson?
Turning off the sarcasm, yes, it is slightly easier to get a better player with a higher draft pick. But is it worth tossing away a chance to be in the playoffs and a chance to chase a record that may be insurmountable in the future? I want this team to try to make the playoffs. If they fall short, it happens and we try to pick up some talent in the off season. If the team loses in the first round, at least we were in it. And if they make a nice run, that's fun too!

AND all this talk about tanking makes me wonder how many on LGW have actually played sports. Is Holland supposed to tell some of the world's most competitive athletes and coaches, ( Babcock, Alfredsson, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Bertuzzi , Tatar, Nyquist, Howard etc) that he is going to rob them of their chance to reach their life's goal, their entire reason for existence up to this point in their lives, the chance to make the playoffs , their chance to be the under dog and do what everyone told them they could not do, against all odds win the Stanley Cup, that everything it means to be a Red Wing will end on their watch? (Grandpa, tell me what it was like being on the team that tanked and ended one of the most Golden eras in all of hockey).Holland: "Alfie, thanks for your sacrifices but I'm shutting 'er down so we can move up and gamble on a higher pick that we may see in 5-6 yrs if it works out or not. Thanks for pissing away everything you've worked for including your old friends and teammates and uprooting your family for nothing. "
"Andy, Tomas, Gus, Riley, Glenny, Danny, I've decided to set you up for failure this year. So, I do not want you to build on your Calder Cup experience. I want you to get away from making the conscious decision every morning when you wake up to be great. I want you to move away from greatness, be a little less than the guy across from you on each and every shift. It may be humiliating at times, it may destroy character deep inside you, you may feel like you are not playing for your teammates, but trust me, years from now, we might be better."
Not sure how you guys think this is supposed to work in real life.

It's a great point... who cares about trying to get to a 3-decade playoff streak when 53% of teams make the playoffs! It's not impressive at all! By random chance a team will make 30 consecutive playoffs 1 out of 186,949,330 chances, so of course that's not impressive! Phooey to that.
It's CLEARLY much more important to try to tank to the 10th overall pick rather than sneak into the playoffs and get the 15th overall pick. I mean, we as Red Wings fans know for a FACT that it's impossible to get franchise altering players without having the absolute highest picks possible! Who would want 2008 15th overall Erik Karlsson over 10th overall Cody Hodgson?
Turning off the sarcasm, yes, it is slightly easier to get a better player with a higher draft pick. But is it worth tossing away a chance to be in the playoffs and a chance to chase a record that may be insurmountable in the future? I want this team to try to make the playoffs. If they fall short, it happens and we try to pick up some talent in the off season. If the team loses in the first round, at least we were in it. And if they make a nice run, that's fun too!

It's a great point... who cares about trying to get to a 3-decade playoff streak when 53% of teams make the playoffs! It's not impressive at all! By random chance a team will make 30 consecutive playoffs 1 out of 186,949,330 chances, so of course that's not impressive! Phooey to that.
It's CLEARLY much more important to try to tank to the 10th overall pick rather than sneak into the playoffs and get the 15th overall pick. I mean, we as Red Wings fans know for a FACT that it's impossible to get franchise altering players without having the absolute highest picks possible! Who would want 2008 15th overall Erik Karlsson over 10th overall Cody Hodgson?
Turning off the sarcasm, yes, it is slightly easier to get a better player with a higher draft pick. But is it worth tossing away a chance to be in the playoffs and a chance to chase a record that may be insurmountable in the future? I want this team to try to make the playoffs. If they fall short, it happens and we try to pick up some talent in the off season. If the team loses in the first round, at least we were in it. And if they make a nice run, that's fun too!

Don't worry, I'm sure the reason Sammy might play ahead of Tatar and Nyquist in game 1 is so Sammy can get a boo-boo that will keep him on LTIR for a month or two. That will then free up space for actual contributing hockey players.

Don't worry, I'm sure the reason Sammy might play ahead of Tatar and Nyquist in game 1 is so Sammy can get a boo-boo that will keep him on LTIR for a month or two. That will then free up space for actual contributing hockey players.

So that's what they call rehab now!

So that's what they call rehab now!

Your original post refers to the "Soviet block [sic]". The Soviet Bloc, also better known as the Eastern Bloc, is a term denoting the countries behind the Iron Curtain that were within the sphere of influence of the USSR. These countries include East Germany, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and Yugoslavia. So, the other poster was correct that the Wings have drafted players from the former Soviet Bloc states.
If you're talking about independent nations that were once a part of the USSR, those are Former Soviet Republics or Post-Soviet States.
/homework graded

I think Modano could have really helped out in Game 7. It wasn't that apparent at the beginning, but when the Wings lost 2 of their top six forwards to injury during the game, it would have been nice to be able to mix in Modano for some potential scoring touch instead of Abdelkader. But overall, I'm not upset he missed most of the playoff games, as I don't think he was consistently one of the 12 best forwards on the team.

Thank god you're around to protect all of us from our own imaginations. Now that this great service has been rendered, why don't you start touring around elementary schools dispelling the evil myths of Santa Claus and the Easter bunny. While you're at it, maybe you can share with them the odds of becoming astronauts, or baseball players, or the president of the United States. Much better that they stop dreaming now than to learn the crushing truth on their own.

I think you're being too hard on Franzen as well. He did lead the team in goals during the season, and while he did have some cold spots, in the NHL he's making about the right money for a 30-goal scorer. Plus, he started well in the playoffs before his ankle was messed up.
I definitely agree with your defensive reading. Kronwall has really stepped up and finally become a bit of the "Nick Jr" he was advertised as. Preferably, I'd like the team to get a youngish 3/4 defenseman with some physicality and match him with Rafalski.
I would like to see the Fil we got in the last two games for the whole season. Maybe the answer is putting him with Datsyuk. They both seem seem to play off of each other really well and can both be creative. Those two with Cleary or Franzen might be really entertaining.
Ericsson is about what I expect out of a bottom pairing guy. I don't want to give up on him quite yet, but if they can bring in a new 3/4 guy, I wouldn't mind having Ericsson and Kindl fight it out for that last spot. Keep them honest and working.

I think you're being too hard on Franzen as well. He did lead the team in goals during the season, and while he did have some cold spots, in the NHL he's making about the right money for a 30-goal scorer. Plus, he started well in the playoffs before his ankle was messed up.
I definitely agree with your defensive reading. Kronwall has really stepped up and finally become a bit of the "Nick Jr" he was advertised as. Preferably, I'd like the team to get a youngish 3/4 defenseman with some physicality and match him with Rafalski.
I would like to see the Fil we got in the last two games for the whole season. Maybe the answer is putting him with Datsyuk. They both seem seem to play off of each other really well and can both be creative. Those two with Cleary or Franzen might be really entertaining.
Ericsson is about what I expect out of a bottom pairing guy. I don't want to give up on him quite yet, but if they can bring in a new 3/4 guy, I wouldn't mind having Ericsson and Kindl fight it out for that last spot. Keep them honest and working.

I think you're being too hard on Franzen as well. He did lead the team in goals during the season, and while he did have some cold spots, in the NHL he's making about the right money for a 30-goal scorer. Plus, he started well in the playoffs before his ankle was messed up.
I definitely agree with your defensive reading. Kronwall has really stepped up and finally become a bit of the "Nick Jr" he was advertised as. Preferably, I'd like the team to get a youngish 3/4 defenseman with some physicality and match him with Rafalski.
I would like to see the Fil we got in the last two games for the whole season. Maybe the answer is putting him with Datsyuk. They both seem seem to play off of each other really well and can both be creative. Those two with Cleary or Franzen might be really entertaining.
Ericsson is about what I expect out of a bottom pairing guy. I don't want to give up on him quite yet, but if they can bring in a new 3/4 guy, I wouldn't mind having Ericsson and Kindl fight it out for that last spot. Keep them honest and working.

It was tough last night playing most of the game without 3 top-six forwards (Franzen, Bertuzzi, Cleary). Those are the breaks. They still fought valiantly and I'm proud of how they played.

I think Franzen is great, but he's no Fedorov. Also, I think the whole "both don't give all their effort all the time" argument is bogus. They both have the ability to pot a goal every game, but that just isn't going to happen. Even Gretzky in the high-scoring 1980's only did it twice (which is amazing in my mind that he could even do it once!). I think lack of game-by-game production looks like laziness, but really it's not. Just like any of us with our jobs, some days you are rocking and can do no wrong, and others you just can't get out of your own way. It doesn't means you're working less hard... it's just the ebb and flow of life.

I think Franzen is great, but he's no Fedorov. Also, I think the whole "both don't give all their effort all the time" argument is bogus. They both have the ability to pot a goal every game, but that just isn't going to happen. Even Gretzky in the high-scoring 1980's only did it twice (which is amazing in my mind that he could even do it once!). I think lack of game-by-game production looks like laziness, but really it's not. Just like any of us with our jobs, some days you are rocking and can do no wrong, and others you just can't get out of your own way. It doesn't means you're working less hard... it's just the ebb and flow of life.

I think Franzen is great, but he's no Fedorov. Also, I think the whole "both don't give all their effort all the time" argument is bogus. They both have the ability to pot a goal every game, but that just isn't going to happen. Even Gretzky in the high-scoring 1980's only did it twice (which is amazing in my mind that he could even do it once!). I think lack of game-by-game production looks like laziness, but really it's not. Just like any of us with our jobs, some days you are rocking and can do no wrong, and others you just can't get out of your own way. It doesn't means you're working less hard... it's just the ebb and flow of life.

The knock on Holland is he doesn't break rules well enough? You are aware he's not *allowed* to "violate" the salary cap, right?

Good questions. To me, I'm not all that concerned about 1 consistent standard over the season as I am concerned about consistency within the context of a single game. In other words, I don't mind if Game 2 of the playoffs is called loose, but Game 3 is tight. Too a certain extent of course... can't have too big of a range. If you put reffing on a scale from 0 to 10, where 0 is a completely loose (no calls) game, and 10 is a completely tight (everything is called) game, I wouldn't mind if all games in the season floated somewhere between a 3 and a 7.
Officials can let the players know what they are looking for early in the game, either verbally or by calling (or not calling) a couple quick penalties. I think refs start seeing problems when they start one way and finish the other, or if one team is getting some tick-tacky calls while the other is hacking away with impunity. I think it's fun to have games during the season that are tightly called, and some loosely. It allows more variability in style of play and makes the game entertaining (again, as long as they stay away from the extremes of calling nothing and calling everything).

Nightfall, wonderful post! I don't think people realize how difficult it is to ref a game of high level competition in just about any sport. I myself do not ref, but I know it is very difficult. I think that refs are doing the best they can, but sometimes a couple mistakes end up on the wrong side and it looks like bias. It's sort of the same thing when fans complain about players not giving their all... the players and refs are trying to do their jobs to the best of their ability, but everyone has off days. I'm certain that people who complain about players/refs don't have perfect efficiency at their job every single day, and they aren't dealing with people trying to stop them do their jobs and random bounces of a puck.
That said, I think there can be more improvements to how games are called. I, along with many others, would simply like to have more consistency in the calls. I don't much care if games are called loose or tight, as long as it is consistent. Overall, I think how refs have to interpret calls needs to be more clarified. For example, the whole kicking/propelling a puck. there has got to be a way to allow pucks to go into the net for goals off of skates while still keeping goalies safe from having people kicking their blades at him.
There are a few penalties that get me mad every time. I hate how a slash that breaks a stick, or knocks it out of a player's hands is an instant penalty. Some of these sticks break when someone receives a soft pass! And allowing a player to gain a penalty by dropping his stick is a farce to me. I also don't like the hooking calls where the player being hooked closes his arm on the stick and pins it to him. If anything, I'd like that to be 2 for hooking, 2 for holding and send both to the box.
Overall, I think the game could be improved with more off-ice punishment. I LOVED back before the lockout when they would announce fines for players that dived. Then that went away. I think it should come back. Dives can be hard to catch in the moment, but are easier via review. Announce fines for dives. After 2 or 3 dives, a player gets suspended. Subsequent dives have longer suspensions. Maybe suspend a coach when his team reaches a certain seasonal dive threshold. Embarrass the players, and make them hurt their teams by missing games, and diving will become much less a part of the game.