wingslionstigers

2011-12 Brynäs SHL 50 16 23 39 22 -3 | Playoffs 16 4 12 16 12 12 Sweden EHT 6 1 1 2 2 -2 | Sweden WC 8 0 1 1 0 0 | Sweden (all) International 18 2 3 5 2 -6 | 2012-13 Brynäs SHL 53 13 29 42 12 -2 | Playoffs 4 0 0 0 6 -3 Grand Rapids Griffins AHL 9 0 3 3 0 3 | Sweden EHT 5 0 2 2 2 2 | Sweden WC 10 0 1 1 4 -2 | Sweden (all) International 16 0 2 2

I'm done arguing with you about the rest of the stuff because we been over it all 10 times.. But this part shows you clearly have no credibility in knowing what your talking about. It won't get the point across to you but everyone else reading will see it. We WERE going to get a defense-men until we lost all of our centers to injury. A center is MUCH more important than a D in order for this team to make the playoffs. The D we have now can get the job done just like they did last year, the centers we are left with could not. Franzen was being used as a our first line center and Andersson was centering our second line. You do realize how little games are left and our centers are going to be out most of the season if not all of it. You do realize how important centers are right? You do realize center is the most important role on the team to have quality players filling the position? You cannot win in the NHL without decent centers. We have no choice but to get a very capable center if we are going to make the playoffs. Picking up a D would have not helped us much. Our D isn't the best but it's an NHL caliber core that can get the job done. The centers we had left injury free were not NHL caliber. Do you understand hockey? Do you understand how important it is for this franchise to make the playoffs? Whether we make it or not we had to make a move to give ourselves a chance. Holland did exactly that, he made a move that gives us a chance and he made a good one. It was a move that HAD to be made. We don't trade often like the chart on the last page indicates, but we had to do this. It is a business and this business has a lot on the line.

Who else do you think we could have traded? You want to trade Mantha, Tatar, Jurco? Who? You have to at least give some value. You can't trade a player that has absolutely no chance of becoming an NHL player. We don't have to much left for forwards that have any trade value. We have D but we can't afford to give up D prospects. Jarnkrok was one of the lower prospects on forward we had that has some value and some potential. Jarnkrok was expendable. We have 600 centers that are going to be around for a few years. I don't think we are going to have all of them injured again like this. This year has been a real unlucky season.

Yeah because the trade didn't finish and submit to the league within 1 minute of the dead line. At base case scenario he becomes as good as Legwand is now? Yeah we really lost that one. No I'm judging him because he didn't perform at the world cup and was a 4th line player. You know that thing were all great NHL players performed well at? That's where you get a look at your players for the first time and how they compete with and against other highly praised NHL prospects. That's where Jarnkrok lost value and its for good reason.

Please tell more more about how Jarnkrok in the past 2 years was showing any signs of becoming a top six forward. Sweden WC-A stats over two years, 2 points in 19 games. Probability of success C, Talent 7.5. A couple years ago he was highly praised for his potential, he hasn't lived up to his potential so far. WHY do you people think he was SO good? Please give me legit sources claiming he was going to take Zetterbergs spot or be anything close to that. He was worth Legwand, especially the situation the team is in needing a center so badly if we have any hope of making the playoffs. You guys just don't understand the side effects of this team missing the playoffs for the first time in 23 years and how it will affect our young guys. Who we are training to become winners. You really want this teams mindset next year to get back into the playoffs? Or do you want it to be make the playoffs for the 24th time and continue and hand off that tradition to our young guys.

Then what was he going to be that made him way to valuable to be traded in a Legwand deal? Why don't you look at the WC A stats of some good players or better yet Swedish players and tell me the difference. Guys that go big in the NHL perform on the WC stage. He lost value because of his performance there. Jarnkrok was a good prospect, a couple years ago. He never really developed to his potential and there is no reason to assume there is even a good chance that he will end up doing so at this point. Jarnkrok certainly will make the NHL but its likely to be as a 3rd or 4th center at this point. He had no chance to make the Wings roster in the for see able future. When are we ever going to need a 3rd or 4th center? With all the players we have, Sheahan, Helm, Weiss, Datsyuk, Andersson, Legwand (likely to be resigned)... We should have kept him in the AHL for 5 years? Our team is almost fully re-tooled don't think there is going to be a big change of hands like there has been the past year. That doesn't happen very often

Because Jarnkrok was so good he managed to put up 2 points in 18 games in two years with the Sweden WC A team? Yeah your right he was the next Crosby for sure.......... Wait no he wasn't.

Can someone please list these teams that have Legwand caliber players as their number 3 centers? How is Legwand a number 3 center? Where in the world do you people come up with these conclusions..... Does anyone have any idea what a number 3 center looks like on 98% of the NHL teams? Who has a number 3 center anywhere close to Legwand? I guess maybe the Sharks if they use Pavelski as their 3, which I don't seem them do very often. Legwands just a number 3 huh? I would say he is one of the better number twos in the league and capable of holding down a first line. Which hmmm, is exactly what we needed isn't it? I don't know of to many teams that have an Alfredsson, Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen, Nyquist, AND a Legwand plus a Tatar a Helm and a Weiss who cannot be ruled out. I would say we have a really good team if we are healthy. Like extremely good. We have eight guys who would all land at least somewhere in the top 6 best forwards on pretty much any team. Let's all wine about how bad our team sucks some more Want to know who is a number 3? Helm is he is a very good number 3 in this league, and Legwand is a much better hockey player.

What has Jarnkrok done? I'm not asking at the pro level because it was obviously to earlier for that. But please explain to me in his hockey career what he has done for anyone to think he is going to be a point per game NHL player. On the 2012-13 Sweden WC A team he recorded 1 point in 10 games at -2. The year before that 1 point in 8 games. Look up Swedish players who exceled in the NHL, Zetterberg, Backstrom, etc and tell me the difference. Jarnkrok was a 4th line grinder on that team with that type of talent. Sure Jarnkrok posted somewhat similar stats in the SEL to those guys. Jarnkrok was a good prospect but I'm not believing for a minute he was going to be anything close to a Zetterberg and to be honest, this team has enough 3rd liners for the foreseeable future. We needed a real number two. Pav is going to be around for a little while and we have plenty of time to find a new number one. On to Brunner it was actually very easy to see then. Anyone that watches the game conscious to the details with the ability to apply logic when analyzing a player could see it with ease. Although what I just described seems to be RARE now days and that is the truth. Talk about sheep, but thats another subject for a different place. Everyone was smoke screened by Brunners somewhat flashy plays he rarely pulled off and the fortunate points he was able to put up early on. The guy did put up a few at first but he scored them because of the line mates he played with. Nobody seemed to notice how many easy goals he didn't score because his shot was unreliable and weak. His lack of strength and desire to battle in corners or help out defensively. The guy sucked. For a quick moment after you ignored his clear flaws it looked like maybe he would just be one of those guys that just might somehow plug in with Z or Datsyuk and manage to produce ok points. It didn't last and once he got demoted he didn't do anything. He hasn't done much sense. I said it then and I say the same thing now. What surpises did we have? Nyquist wasn't a surprise this year, it was clear last year this guy was serious. We seen enough of Tatar last year to know he had some serious talent too. Their stats in the AHL backed what we saw at first NHL glimpse. There was a clear difference between Nyquist and Tatar's first 8 games than compared to say Andersson or Glendenning. Talent is not that hard to spot, and when you spot talent and see hard work ethics combined with solid skating abilities and vision then you know you have something, very rarely you won't. Which Nyquist and Tatar had all of. Those guys were easy to spot from a distance. Last year I said those guys could be anywhere from top 3 forwards and at worst 4th to 6th forwards on a good team. Nyquist being likely a top 3 and Tatar more likely at the bottom of the top six. Sheahan did come as a surprise as in nobody thought he would walk in and be a guy ready to stick around from the start. Sheahan has shown no ability to ever be as good as Nyquist is going to be. Sheahan looks like maybe a really good 3rd liner. Regardless I guess he is still a nice gift for this roster to receive earlier than recently projected. The reason I get into this guys. Is not to say anybody is stupid but let's start seeing the big picture and look at what we have going forward. Just think and analyze things, stop reading other peoples conclusions and spreading this negativity about our team and its future. A few people started this and everybody takes it for fact like it must be right. It's like social media advertising all the crap it does and people eat it up and don't question any of it. Use your own brain. Its sad really. This team and prospect pool excites me more than it has in a long time. Our team is really good and we got a lot more coming. The hardest part is going to figure out who we keep and who we trade off because of an over abundance of good players. We are not going to be able to afford it all. If we are missing a piece Holland will get it don't worry. He has been clearly trying but the right piece for the right price hasn't showed up at the right time. Free agency is hard to get a good player for a good price now days. A big piece is likely going to have to come via trade. We haven't had the chips to trade in the past. We have chips now but we need to cash those chips in on our current roster, we are re-tooling and we will have plenty of chips left over after we finish the process. That is when left over chips can be used to bring something big in that puts our team over the top. It's a very simple process to understand. It is exactly what Holland is doing. Holland didn't make that bad of moves with Sammy, Bert, etc. What happened here was simply a miscalculation. We knew Nyquist and Tatar were going to be good, but what we did not know is that they would 'already' be this good. He calculated we needed these guys to fill out roster for another season before we started cashing in the chips. Any one of us could have made that mistake. Some of you guys just have no concept of what these GM's are faced with when your trying to stay competitive, develop properly and transition these guys in at the right times. Ken Holland knows what he is doing and it becomes very clear when you break down and deeply analyze it as well as the situations he previously and will soon be faced with. This team is on a very calculated plan with constant projections of whats going to happen this year, next year, the year after. Holland knows decisions made today have to be parallel with what he has projected in three years from now for example.You just can't always make the right moves I don't care how intelligent you are. If you think Ken Holland is honestly stupid your a fool and need reevaluate your thought process and understanding of your own mind and the world around you. Bring back the positive energy to this fan base and stand behind this promising team and for f**** sakes quit your B****ing. I just wish we could talk intelligently about hockey around these forums and not have to skim threw post of whiners every time something isn't perfect. Oh one more thing. Remember Filppula, I told everyone here years ago how good this kid is and how important to our team he is. Look what happened when we got Weiss, most finally realized it. Fil made the Red Wings a much harder team to play against and increased our teams puck possession time. Most probably don't have the brain capacity to understand how much an extra couple minutes per game of a player on their team floating around with the puck on your teams stick increases your odds of winning games through out the season. Point here, appreciate guys like Franzen. Who only have a salary hit of 3.9 million per year who can clearly keep this team a float with two of the best players in the world injured. What a beast and what a shame for all you people who disrespect him any night he doesn't score 2 goals.

Lol funny you say that. Wasn't everyone crying all summer about losing him? When he was clearly a one dimensional player that really wasn't much value to our team. Especially with players like Nyquist and Tatar coming up. If we had Brunner this year everyone would be crying about him. Kind of how just two days ago everyone (ss in 99.3% of all Red Wings fans on the Internet) were crying about Legwand and trying to make ridiculous claims that hes only a number 3 center? Jarnkrok who has never been in his entire career a top six type forward. Never in any league has he been a point per game type guy. This guy was a really good 3rd line center type prospect and that is it. Get real people. Legwand is going to sign in Detroit if we offer him a contract which we will likely do everything possible to make happen. What a great trade for our team. What a great hockey player and the perfect player that this team needed. If the Wings are healthy come playoffs, we will be a team nobody wants to see.

Where is all the Franzen haters at today? Him and his stupid extremely low 3.9 cap hit need to be traded I thought? For Elder?

Doesn't look like to many guys from LGW are ready to watch the game this morning... Thank god I'm laid off and in the process of relocation. It's to early to be up and not getting paid but I wouldn't miss it. Lets go USA

The first time I really paid any attention to soccer was during the Olympics. I from time to time watch it now. Maybe if I already wasn't packed with sports following hockey, baseball, and football I would have ended up watching it regularly. I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume someone would watch the Olympics purely because of the hype and supporting their country and end up realizing the game is exciting and start watching the NHL. I know a couple people who watched the USA/Canada gold game that did not watch any NHL at all. That game gave them respect for hockey and I wouldn't say that they are now die hard NHL fans but they certainly watch some Wings game here and there. That adds up and helps the league. It would be impossible to create any research or statistics on it. It would cost way to much money and the NHL wouldn't waist money on it. So just because there isn't research to back it up like someone said earlier, is not a legitimate argument to dismantle Olympic hockey's potential in growing the sport. One thing is for sure. Nobody ever stopped being an NHL fan because they went to the Olympics. The Olympics has surely drew at least some people to the game. Who knows how many, but anything helps. If a player gets injured from your NHL team are you seriously going to stop watching? If Datsyuk gets hurt I'm still going to watch as many games, still buy Red Wing stuff, still go see them play at the Joe. It's nice to see Datsyuk but there are other very good athletes on the ice worth watching. If Datsyuk gets hurt than so be it. I'm not going to cry for them to stop going because of it. I'm sure some people will though because they wine about everything possible. That's where some of us differentiate though. Not all of us grew up to become sensitive whiny individuals that cry everytime something doesn't go perfect. I can understand women using emotions to guide their thinking, but more and more guys now days are becoming feminine. Thank god for hormones in our food increasing estrogen and decreasing testosterone levels.... Hopefully I'm aloud to say two sentences out of 30 that's not directly hockey without being warned and banned on this forum. I guess we are not aloud to use logic and analyses that reaches outside of hockey to make a hockey point. Sounds a lot like the world today. You can do this this and that, but not that this and that. Amazing.

In the Constitution it no where states that the United States is a democracy or republic, Although the word "majority" is used and referred to in the Constitution several times. The only place the word "republic" is mentioned is in Article IV, Section 4. "The United States shall guarantee to every state in this union a republican form of government." Lets not forget the word "republic" identifies some of the worst of dictatorships, authoritarian and tyrannical governments It would be more accurate to consider it as a Democratic republic. Regardless of your selective attention to detail this has nothing to do with anything I said. If people told the NHL that they were not going to watch games and honored their word if the players didn't go to the Olympics, than they would go to the Olympics. If Americans stood up against acts of lobbying and and political "sponsorships," than it wouldn't exist. The power is in the people they just refuse to be ignorant and let the rich run the world. Back to what you said about the people making the calls would be dangerous. Do you think it is any less dangerous for the billionaire corporations to make the calls like they currently do? No, the people need to stand up so we have a balanced government. The food full of GMO's, hormones, and pesticides that are responsible for diseases, heart conditions, etc and kill millions of people in the name of cooperate profitability. Please don't get me started.

So you are saying the Olympics isn't good for the NHL? The big time headlines Hockey receives across the United States and the rest of the world aren't good for hockey? The fact that most NHL fans watch and hype the Olympics up like its the Superbowl. I'm pretty sure the tv ratings for that USA and Canada gold game four years ago was incredible for hockey. When USA makes the medal games, every city/towns newspaper in the country has it on the first page. NHL doesn't create those type of headlines because NHL is irrelevant to the USA, but the USA hockey team is competing for a gold for our country so it makes the big headlines. ______________________________________________________________________ What's this other stuff that I read some people saying about that they are in contracts and just shouldn't go? Sense when does a NHL contract mean that the players are slaves. Wow just an example of ignorance in this country. Let's keep allowing the corporations to sponsor and lobby politicians in the name of mass profit. Force things down our throats that we don't need like insane and deadily pharmaceuticals for example. In which all Americans are told they are needed on comemrcials every day and even by doctors. Doctors who were trained by pharmaceutical sponsored college books. The college book industry is dominated by the pharmaceutical companies to train doctors to virtually push pills for profits. Just because they are in a contract to play for an NHL team does not make them slaves. They are allowed to hang out with their friends, shoot some hoops which could result in injury, but they can't go play hockey for their country? Get real. Prime example of the mindset that is wrong with this country and world. The fans pay these players salaries and if the fans want our players to go play in the Olympics than they should, bottom line. If everyone stopped being delusional we would all want that and it's our right to make happen. It was our founding fathers intentions that the people make the calls in this country and the politicians work for the people, because the people fund everything. Stop being ignorant and educate yourselves. Stop falling victim to manipulation and slavery. The Olympics is the best hockey in the world and it would be a shame to not witness it.

So you don't want to interrupt a team that's managed to win a few games? I could see if the team was playing fantastic and consistently for a couple months with the current line up and was sitting better than the last place wild card spot. But I don't think having an ok stretch justifies not wanting to 'shake things' up by adding some of our top forwards to the line up. I'm pretty sure with Franzen and Weiss we would be capable of having a good week or two also. The sooner we get a healthy Weiss and Franzen back into our lineup the better. I think Holland and Babcock will agree by putting those guys back in as soon as they are healthy. But that's just my thoughts on it obviously everyone's entitled to their own opinion.

I don't mind Bertuzzi but I do agree it would not be a bad idea to move forward without him given the talent we have available. Franzen is a great player with a great cap hit. Any team in the league would take him for his cap hit. It would be crazy to assume Franzen is not well worth his 3.9 million cap hit. You can't afford to have 4 or 5 Zetterberg's or Datsyuk's on a team. You need guys paid like Franzen and your not going to get guys who play like Z or D that take Franzen's pay. Think about it.

If by some chance we were 100% healthy after the Olympic break. Ken Holland obviously would have some big decisions to make to iron this roster out before the playoffs. Let's not turn this into a flame Holland thread because everyone still assumes he is going to shaft our young good players in favor of the vets. He did misjudge the capabilities of our young guys early on but lets be serious, he is not going to favor vets over the young players who clearly earned their spots. Although you may see him take either Bert or Cleary for one spot purely for extra veteran leadership and locker room presence. I think that would be understandable and expected. He wasn't afraid to send down Eaves, Sammy, and Tootoo. Obviously Jurco would be the first to go in the event of a healthy roster. He is not a bottom six player and we would not have room in our top six for him. We have guys who I personally think would be better off in the bottom six. Let the kid go develop and get ice time, he surely will be here in the future. It would be best for the team this year and best for his development. Here is what I would like to see. Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Abdelkader Franzen - Weiss - Alfredson Nyquist - Helm - Tatar Abdelkador - Andersson - Sheahan or Franzen - Zetterberg - Nyquist (Don't forget this line was great) Bertuzzi - Datsyuk - Alfredson What happens to the remainder of the lineup if we went with option 2 as our top six? This makes things more complicated. Remember we need guys that can play the roles of their lines. A guy with a little more skill necessarily isn't the best thing for a 4th line and more skill doesn't always make someone a better player, especially in the playoffs. Which the purpose of this thread is to build a playoff team. Bertuzzi / Miller / Jurco / Cleary / Glendenning (All remain as possibility's) Weiss - I am optimistic that Weiss was being held back by his injury. We have a lot of money invested in him for the next 4 years. He will have every chance to get back in into the number two center role. With a couple of good players around him I have a hard time believing he won't get the job done. We have to try and get Weiss going, we simply have to much invested in him. Sheahan - He obviously would be the first to be shafted in favor of Bert or Cleary. This kid has been extremely impressive and I think he blew everyone's expectations away. His production rate likely wont hold but he certainly would produce the points expected of someone on a 4th line role. He is a big body and plays very well both ways. This kid has earned the last roster spot in my opinion. His pure ability to step right into the NHL and play has really impressed me. It's no longer his spot to earn, it's now his spot to lose. 1st line - Only in the event that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are paired together on the 1st line would Abs break the top six. With those two guys on one line there is no need to concentrate anymore talent on one single line. It makes more sense to let Abs be physical and get pucks for those guys and in return make the 3rd line much stronger by freeing up Nyquist to play the third line, giving us three really good lines. 3rd line - Pretty much summed this up in the first line conversation. If we can build two great lines without Nyquist, we might as well put him here where he has some chemistry and would make for a super fast and possibly the best third line in the league. Three very dangerous lines. 4th line - I think this would be a very competitive 4th line although it is probably unlikely. Miller is extremely valuable to our pk and we have to believe Cleary and Bert aren't both going to be scratched. Bertuzzi - He is still far to good to be scratched, honestly. A very smart player that can plug into a top six line. He is a little slow now days but is still big and physical, makes really smart plays, can protect the puck, and understands the defensive game very well. His only downside like mentioned earlier is he lacks speed. Cleary - I don't want to see him in the lineup as I'm sure everyone feels the same. I know he is a big locker room guy for us but someone else has to step up and replace that. Sorry Cleary, we thank you for your dedication to the team but unfortunately the young guys have emerged and we are a new team now. Defense - There is nothing to discuss here as we know who is playing for us this year in a healthy scenario. This is not where the roster moves need to be made and this might be a lot more interesting conversation next year. Unless a trade was proposed for a D. If you propose a trade please use logic and common sense, we will lose very good players for a good D. Absolutely no team is going to take Bertuzzi and Cleary for a top 3 D. Plus a big contract could hinder the signing of our very good upcoming free agents in the next 1-2 years. Think about these things and the talent we have that will need more money. With all that said, I think we have a very strong team if we are healthy. There is no arguing that our forward line-up is very impressive, may be one of the best groups in the league from top to bottom. Let's have a serious well thought-out conversation guys.

Lol yeah... What I was arguing is that I know most people are looking way to much into Sheahan's points. If Sheahan played the exact same and had two less goals right now we wouldn't be having this conversation because these guys wouldn't be overly high on him and saying hes better than Andy. I always argued in favor of Filppula year after year, but everyone around he judged him so negatively on his stats alone, now that he left now they all would love to have him back. That's one example. Sheahan looks pretty good so far, but we shouldn't be jumping the gun. Especially making premature judgements that hes more valuable to our team than Andy who has been a great bottom six guy for us. Your right about that but he has still played more games than 95% of our team. Sheahan does look like he has some upside, never was trying to imply he doesn't. I just get annoyed sometimes when I read posts around here. When we lose our team sucks so bad and our future is dim and our prospects aren't going to turn this team around. When we win we are the best ever. When someone doesn't score a point per game they are useless and need to be traded. When someone goes on a 6 game point streak suddenly they are the best player ever when two weeks ago everyone was calling for their head. I might be over exaggerating a tad but I'm just trying to make a point. I just find it amazing.

Buy out Mule lol?? Our 25-30 goal scorer who gets paid peanuts compared to other players of his caliber (3.95 million) I can understand that some people give Franzen slack because he could be more consistent sometimes. But to ever consider giving up a player this good for 3.9 a year is insane. Franzen was phenomenal and carried this team through injury's before he himself got hurt. Good thing Holland doesn't listen to any of you guys or Yzerman would snag Franzen and Tampa Bay would be winning a cup with the players he snagged from us, who happened to be guys these forums wanted gone. Andersson is 7th in points for forward scoring and one of the few people who managed to stay healthy. I have no idea how you can consider Sheahan who only only scored 36 points in 72 games with Grand Rapids last year better than Andy. Sheahan has a higher point pace in the NHL than he did in the AHL, Do you really think that's going to last? Just because he happened to show up on the stat sheet a few times early don't start considering a player with a few games better than proven players.

Good sign to see Mantha being viewed so highly from an outsider standpoint

We are looking good any way you put it. Even if we don't have two superstars we surely have a a few all-stars in the making and great bottom six and bottom 3 D. When D and Z go at worst case scenario we would have to sign a couple big names and we are a serious competitor as we will have the rest of the team built. Nyquist and Tatar already proven they are going to be atleast 2nd line caliber. Mantha is putting up insane stats its hard not to be highly optimistic of his future, sure there is a chance he might not pan out at the next level but not many guys put up the stats has is in juniors. You can't ignore that or discredit it. Sproul, Quellet, all these guys are looking really good. Dekeyser, Ericsson, Abs, Helm, all pieces young enough to be apart of the future with these prospects.

Oh Fil wouldn't be worth the exact same money we gave Weiss? If he was willing to sign here we would have signed him and for good reason. We would have won more games this year as a result.

I went to the Alumni game and some circumstances (travel) prevented me from watching the Winter Classic. I have Center Ice but there are no replays on there so I was wondering where can I possibly find a full video/stream of this game. I have to watch it and can't believe I missed it. If anyone can help me out I would really appreciate it.

Good call on the Torrent. I found one I hope it ends up working.. There is only like one seed and 12 leaching so could take a long time to download. Fingures crossed though.