Carman

He's a year younger, and put up close to the same numbers in the AHL. The difference between the two is Moore is much better defensively, yet doesn't move and have the puck skills that Smith has. They are both 20-30 first round picks.

Yeah Dorsett was the heart of their team. It wouldn't be quite like us losing Helm, but close. And Brassard/Moore is like us losing Filpulla signed to a 3 million deal for a another year, and Brendan Smith. Not saying I wouldn't do it, but we all saw what happened to New York when they lost the heart and soul aspect and loaded up no high end talent. You need good depth players. And Minnesota gave up the equivalent of Mrazek, Jarnkrok for Pominville. It's a risky trade. I don't know how I feel. Slighty disappointed, but the more I think about it it's not as bad as it seems to me.

.50 ppg players aren't bums. What world do you live in?

Yep that's pretty much us giving up Jarnkrok, and Mrazek.

We ARE leading the league in man games lost.

Pominville, and Gaborik being moved. Not too happy, these are players that can make us better now, and for the next few years. Good return for Gaborik by New York, they got Brassard, Dorsett and Moore it seems like. Much tougher to play against.

yeaa no. I like Conacher, but he's a small, speedy guy. Not exactly what we need in our top 6. Especially when Mrazek can be used for a more proven top 6 guy.

What he says to the media, does not mean that's what he says to other teams. And Holland's actually came out and specifically said if he's making a move it's for a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman. And you don't go after those guys if you aren't trading firsts and top prospects.

Yzerman traded for Ben Bishop. Good move by Yzerman. I can't help but think that Ben Bishop has been a product of good defensive teams though.

I was semi sarcrastic, but really Ian White has been a very good point producing defenseman. And he's only 28. It wasn't just a one year thing with Lidstrom, the previous year he played with Calgary and Toronto and put up 38 points and played 22 minutes a night, 28th among defenseman in points and 42nd in ice time. He's struggled this year, but it's not like he's never been productive.

You don't scratch one of the 50 best defenseman in the league. Ian White is a great player, just is battling some demons right now. He'll be huge down the stretch.

To be fair washington's first round pick ended up in Norris consideration=p, that wasn't a bad trade though Lang was a beast before coming to us, leading scorer I believe. But, let me know when someone that could help this team is moved. Iginila, Morrow, Jagr etc. are not what we need. If Eriksson, Gaborik, Pominville etc. get moved then you can start the hate.

He's traded 3/23/99 - Traded D Anders Eriksson + 1999 1st round pick (#23/Steve McCarthy) + 2001 1st round pick (#29/Adam Munro) to Chicago Blackhawks for D Chris Chelios 3/23/99 - Traded 1999 2nd round pick (#59/David Inman) + 2000 3rd round pick (#74/Igor Radulov) to New York Rangers for D Ulf Samuelsson 3/23/99 - Traded G Kevin Hodson + 1999 2nd round pick (#47/Sheldon Keefe) to Tampa Bay Lightning for LW Wendel Clark + 1999 6th round pick (#181/Kent McDonell) 6/30/01 - Traded LW Vyacheslav Kozlov + 2002 1st round pick (#30/Jim Slater) to Buffalo Sabres for G Dominik Hasek 7/9/01 - Traded D Aaron Ward to Carolina Hurricanes for 2002 2nd round pick (#58/Jiri Hudler) 6/22/02 - Traded 2003 3rd round pick (#98/Grigory Shafigulin) to Nashville Predators for 2002 3rd round pick (#95/Valtteri Filppula) 7/14/05 - Hired head coach Mike Babcock 6/24/06 - Traded 2006 1st round pick (#29/Chris Summers) + 2006 5th round pick (#152/Jordan Bendfeld) to Phoenix Coyotes for 2006 2nd round pick (#41/Cory Emmerton) + 2006 2nd round pick (#47/Shawn Matthias) 2/26/08 - Traded 2008 2nd round pick (#61/Peter Delmas) + 2009 4th round pick (#119/Ben Chiarot) to Los Angeles Kings for D Brad Stuart 6/24/09 - Traded 2009 1st round pick (#29/Ashton Carter) to Tampa Bay Lightning for 2009 2nd round pick (#32/Landon Ferraro) + 2009 3rd round pick (#75/Andrej Nestrasil) 11/11/09 - Claimed LW Drew Miller off waivers from Tampa Bay Lighting 2/6/10 - Traded LW Ville Leino to Philadelphia Flyers for D Ole-Kristian Tollefsen + 2011 5th round pick (#145/Mattias Backman) 6/24/11 - Traded 2011 1st round pick (#24/Matt Puempel) to Ottawa Senators for 2011 2nd round pick (#35/Tomas Jurco) + 2011 2nd round pick (#48/Xavier Ouellet) Those are just some moves, credit to FissionFire's thread on HFboards. http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=576043 I would hardly say he's done nothing, made some very good hires, and kept the majority of good players in the organization, if you look at the players we've lost, vs. the player's we've gained it's not even close. It's been very positive, he's been very good about keeping good players(Howard, Kronwall), and letting players go(Hudler, Ritola, Leino etc.) Sure he's not perfect, but man he is better than most GM's. Do you really want to risk a new guy, and be facing Feaster selling of the heart of your team for 26 year old goalies that have never came to North America?

I wouldn't want them to say and believe anything else. Now it may or may not be the truth, but as professional players you have to play with confidence.

Mrazek is awesome, no one is trying to put him down at least I'd hope not. I would only trade him for a player that I know for a fact will step in and play a top 6 role for this team for the next 5 years at least. That's all. I can understand where you are coming from, Mrazek is an exciting prospect, and he has a ton of potential.

Franzen has his place on this team, he's a good value for his production. But I completely understand the frustration, the guy has all the talent, skating ability and size to just be an absolutely stud. Instead he is just a good to very good player. I just really can't get over the fact that Babcock had to call him out, on coming to play everyday. And this is a guy that's in his prime on a 11 year deal. It's scary to think about what might happen in a few years. Right now he's worth his salary, but if he ever loses a step, he hasn't shown the propensity to be a grinder and really use his body effectively, which is something that can hurt the team when they are paying him 4 million a year for 10 goals and a bottom 6 role. So I can understand the thought process for trying to get value for him now, while he's still worth something.

It's a good question, I should probably rephrase my comment to say and top pairing defensive guy. Ericsson might be on his way, but we could really use that Orpik, Mcdonagh, Seabrook, Seidenberg, Methot etc. type guy to cover down on Kronwall inefficiencies, they will always be there, it's who he is. Which is one of the reason I wanted Bouwmeester, he could have really bailed out Kronwall's mistakes. Ericsson is good in his own right, I just don't think he's at a level in which he can make up for Kronwall. Hopefully he can develop some chemistry, but man do they make some crucial mistakes for a number 1 pairing. But you're right a Doughty, Pieterangelo, Keith, Suter, Weber don't grow on trees, which is why I really wished Holland would have been more aggressive going after Subban for example.

Awesome news. This kid has really been developing well.

And Courturier is a 20 year old with potential to be a top line center. The difference is we have Sproul, Backman, Jensen, Deykeyser, Smith, Lashoff, Kindl etc. What's our big center depth look like? Sheahan, Andersson ???? And they don't project to be top 6 players, Sheahan has an outside shot though. I don't know, I think you guys are undervaluing Courturier, if he was in our system you would most likely be signing a different tune. IMO

for a 20 year old 6'3 center? We already have a goalie, what we are missing is size. Mrazek is very promising, but it's a win/win for both teams. We have Howard hopefully for the forseeable future, but we don't have a big top 6 center prospect.

I find that ironic when I posted numbers. A goalie can only do so much, did you hold it against Hasek for 8 years before he won? Fact is goalies in this league don't stay elite for long, Miller was amazing for a couple years, Luongo was briliant for a long time, Thomas put up ridiculous numbers, every Phoenix goalie puts up numbers. etc. Elite goalies are a rare commodity, and I'd venture to say their may not be an "elite" goalie ala Hasek, Roy, Brodeur playing right now. It really depends on your definition, if all it takes is a good cup run to be elite then Fleury should be in their, along with Neimi, Thomas, Giguere. But if a goalie can't be elite without winning in the playoffs then you are leaving out a ton of great goalies.

Yes. Look at their career numbers. Howard .917 with 2.42 gaa his best season was .924 and 2.26 GAA 2.25 million Price .916 with 2.53 gaa his best season was .923 and 2.35 GAA 6.5 million Rinne .920 with 2.35 gaa his best season was .930 and 2.12 GAA 7 million Ward .910 with 2.74 GAA his best season was .923 and 2.56 GAA 6.3 million Quick .915 with 2.32 GAA his best season was .929 and 1.95 GAA 5.4 million I don't see the major difference, but you know where I do see? Look at salaries. Howard at 4-5 million is better. And Rinne's and Quick's best season were behind defensively oriented clubs, not a type of team Howard is playing behind now. I really think Howard gets underrated here, we finally get a very good goalie, and yet he's not good enough. If we were paying him Quick money, and then puts up .895 SV% like Quick is this year do you think we'd be happy?

I like Mrazek, I'm not saying to trade him for a rental. His value is high, I agree with you. But Where was I wrong on Howard? Can you please elaborate?

Nobody knows that Mrazek has the ability. He has the potential to. Jimmy Howad also dominated the 2002 World Juniors and lead the US to a gold medal. Then he goes back to college hockey and leads his team to a final four championship game and lost the game 1-0. He set league records in college. Jimmy was also the first griffin goalie to be named to the all rookie team, and set several griffin records. Then his first NHL season he gets nominated for a Calder trophy and puts up top 5 SV% and GAA numbers better than Lundqvist, Bryzgalov, Brodeur, Kiprusoff, Rinne, Price, Luongo, Thomas. His career numbers of .917 and 2.42 are not that far off of your elite criteria of .920 and 2.35 for Rinne. Or quick .915 and 2.32. How about Ryan Miller who everyone thought was elite a few years ago with .915 and 2.59. Fact is Howard has proven to be an elite goalie. And he has been elite at every level. No goalie is going to put up great numbers with this current Wing's team. They are awful at turning the puck over, and allow way too many high % chances. The only goalie that would do well would be Hasek, and the odds of Mrazek being Hasek are 1 in a million.

Yep I'm being patient. If Pominville, Eriksson, Gaborik, Courturier etc. get moved for a reasonable price I'll start to hold Holland to the fire. But so far none of these moves are that big of a loss.