fivetenandagame

Reminds me of this. I remember them telling the story of it. I think they said so many bones were busted they cut his face almost off to do the surgery. Like the Nic Cage movie Face Off. I think they peeled his face back and did all the repairs/plates and then put it back. YUCK

Yeah, I have to work on understanding this about some people. Especially on a message board. I guess because I look at it as a waste of time and emotional energy. I guess that's my own egocentricity kicking in. As for not giving it your all in Detroit potentially leading to harsh feelings. No doubt. Just look at Fedorov.

I can understand Wings fans being disappointed that maybe he didn't bring the work ethic we're accustomed to. What I don't get is the bitterness. In truth, I can't say i'm happy for the guy or angry at the guy. I have absolutely no care in the world for him. He's in the East, playing for a team I could care less about and he's not doing anything spectacular. Sure, he's become a pretty solid offensive forward. But that's a very offensive team. He's not going to put those numbers up in Ottawa nor is he the next Stamkos. I might as well be bitter about the career Mike Knuble has had. Slava Kozlov had a nice, productive career after Detroit too. Different circumstances but whatever. A player moves on and that's that. I personally don't give them too much thought. I'm too busy thinking about my own team to care enough to be bitter about former players.

Is everybody this touch all the time around here? Sheesh, people take this way too personally. I love the Wings too. But i'm not affiliated with them. They don't sign my paychecks and nobody in my family is named Illitch so I find it amusing when people seem to react like someone has absolutely wronged them. Leino didn't work here. Dan Cleary didn't work all the places he was it. It happens. We love Cleary because it worked for us. We hate Leino because he's found success and it isn't with us. Don't get all butt hurt over it. Not you personally, just generally speaking here.

Oh snap! haha. Like your style there RusDRW. That's a great reply.

I don't think it matters which term you use, enforcer or cheap shot artist. I just think your rationale is flawed. Only rich teams? How do you even begin to ascertain which teams can or cannot afford to pay fines? Sure, some teams are worth more or carry a heftier payroll. But that doesn't necessarily mean a team with a lower payroll can't afford to pay a fine anymore than they can't afford to pay their light bill. I don't know anything about NHL team finances because i've never seen their books and don't have the first clue. If you know more about it please share it. I also don't think the New York Rangers or Detroit Red Wings are going to employ dirty, cheap shot artists just because they can afford to do it. Maybe I don't understand what point you're trying to make but it almost seems like you're miffed because you think employing a cheap shot artist is good thing and that the rich teams will do it because they can and that's not fair to the "poor teams". If that's what you're getting at that's what I think is flawed. Nobody is going to employ these guys simply b/c they can afford to pay the fines. They'll employ them if those guys fill a need or role for their organization and hopefully, the fine system will encourage those types of players from crossing the line. There are plenty of guys I would consider cheap shot artists that would be able to find work on almost any NHL team no matter how wealthy that team is. The specter of fines isn't going to keep a team from signing: Steve Ott Steve Downie Shawn Avery Scott Hartnell Ben Eager Matt Cooke Daniel Carcillo Max Lapierre Jarko Ruutu etc, etc, etc......... These guys will find work even on teams that aren't the richest in the league. Potential fines aren't going to deter any GM who has the cap space and need to sign a player like this if he thinks it helps his team.

Is this a trick question? The video clearly shows that his right arm is right up under the chin of Letang. I guess I would consider that to be putting your arm up. It wasn't like he hit him with his shoulder. It was a nice forearm shiver. Like I said, I like the hit but understand the call that was made.

I'm perfectly fine with a charge being called there. Nothing more. Is it a "bad" call? In comparison to the bazillion bad calls per game, I think not. Ref has to make a split second call on this one and he does have his arm up. It's not a flying elbow to the jaw, but given the current state of the game, the black eye that is the concussion issue and the fact that Letang is flat footed and Brule absolutely steamrolls him, I am ok with the call. I personally think it's a fantastic hit. But with his right arm up where it is, and the contact catching part of Letang's head, I think a charge is iffy but reasonable. Could they have let it go? Sure. But by calling it I don't see it as a bad call. Just a borderline call.

Well then you're looking to be offended by him. And despite what you posted earlier, you're simply not capable of distinguishing between his in game or post game stuff (of which he can be very douchey) and his off the ice stuff where he is very well spoken, humble and gracious. Not that we need to go scouring the internet for more Crosby but the videos are out there. Away from the ice he seems like just another young, talented, aw shucks kind of hockey kid. Hockey is known for this. This isn't the NBA. In game, that's one thing. No debating that. Away from the game, I have nothing bad to say about the kid. Handles himself exceptionally well in interviews and has done so since he was 18. That's my opinion anyway.

As a fight fan its always nice to think about a young guy who can handle himself maybe joining the big club one day. Be nice if he wasn't so small by modern hockey standards. But he can really throw 'em and at this point beggars can't be choosers.

+1 I'd much rather play against the best and hopefully kick their butts than to have guys retire early from injury just because they pose a threat to my team. Much more rewarding to beat the best than to get the easy road. My dream playoffs would have us playing the Ducks, Hawks, Canucks and Penguins with all their players healthy and hoisting the Cup at the end.

LGW, keeping it classy. Sheesh man, it's just hockey.

Sounds like hearsay at this point. Wouldn't doubt it though. Playing sports for a living is one thing. Playing with injuries that threaten your quality of life going forward and the love of family is another entirely. Setting aside his douchebagginess for a second, he's a great talent and has accomplished more in 6 years than most players ever will. Frankly, it'd be sad if he had to retire b/c of injuries. Sad when any player's career is cut short (Cam Neely anyone). If this is true, coupled with the fact that he has or will end up missing nearly 1/2 a season b/c of this, it sounds like his family knows something we don't. Particularly the severity of his symptoms. I think it's probably pretty common for injured athletes to have family allegedly saying these things. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I just hope they are overreacting and that his symptoms aren't that bad. Despite the fact that I'm not a big fan and I hate Pittsburgh with a passion, I'd hate to see his career cut short. Just a supreme talent and it would be a big loss for the NHL and hockey fans in my humble opinion.

Are you insinuating maybe he's faking or something with this statement? I remember lurking around the boards when he got hurt during the WC and people saying all manner of things like he was faking and that he pirouetted to the ice and it was all exaggeration and such. Basically, there were quite a few folks who seemed to dislike him so much that they couldn't fathom that he possibly was really hurt. I thought that was a bit low for Wings fans imo. My first reaction to watching it was damn! Looked to me like he had no idea Steckel was there and for sure he got his bell rung. I actually thought the hit Hedman put on him was nothing and that the Steckel hit really did mess him up. Watching 24/7 they showed him in the locker room after the period and he seemed in obvious difficulty. Not that he was dying or anything but he sure looked like somebody whose eggs were scrambled. I guess looking back now since he hasn't played forever, perhaps people underestimated the severity of the blow. Damned concussions symptoms are unpredictable and scary these days. As for the tweet, I love statistics and have been watching them all year. At one point, like after missing 12 games or something, he was still the leading scorer in the league I think. Just goes to show that as an offensive weapon he was destroying it this year and as a hockey fan, it would've been nice to see if he could've kept the pace. Would've been nice to see somebody maybe crack 130 or maybe even 140 points in this day and age. I think the craziest stat is he had 32 goals in 41 games. That's a 64 goal pace. This is the 2nd year he's missed considerable time. 2 years out of 6. Not a good sign for longevity, especially with the concussion thing now. LaFontaine, Lindros, etc.....these concussions are downright cutting careers short well before their time. Kind of sad as a fan. I hate to see players knocked out of this great game due to injury.

So the writer is basically saying we have a 1 year window before we "might" have to rebuild and you go bonkers. But Babcock says we have a 2 year window and that's all good? I think in the next 2 years we're going to see a massive change in this roster. That's just the nature of the beast in the NHL today, especially so for a team with as many 35+ year olds on it as ours. We're going to be seeing new faces. Whereas I don't think that constitutes rebuilding, I do find it amusing that you take such offense with the writer's opinion that we've got a 1 year window and yet no offense to Babcock's opinion of a 2 year window.

I don't know if that's really a big deal though. And what exactly would be a "great surrounding cast"? Detroit? Our defense is worse than the Hawks this year. Seabrook is a fantastic young dman Keith is the reigning Norris winner Campbell (bloated contract aside) is a good player. His offensive skills are superb and he's leading the league with a +28 rating That's not a bad place to start. I think you'd be hard pressed to find many teams with a better 3 names at the top. Look at the rest of our lineup? Homer goggles aside, Ericsson, Kindl and Salei are hardly elite players. They're serviceable guys. Not bad players but not standouts either. I don't think they're any better as a group than say, Hjarmalsson, Cullimore and Boynton. A bit different skill set amongst the two groups but I wouldn't say our bottom 3 are way better than their bottom 3. Chris Campoli is a nice addition as well. Gives them a bit more offensive pop than the 3 guys I mentioned already.

Weren't people complaining about the Hawks thread getting bumped all the time or some such? I come into the Boston/Habs thread and half the posts are about Chicago.

I believed we were arguing the fact that I think his defensive play, while still stellar in comparison to his peers, has not been as good this season as in seasons past. And we seem to disagree about whether or not +/- is a useful statistic at all in that regard. I think it has some relevance. You seem to think otherwise. At least that's what I gathered from your posts. I don't think i'm so much as arguing with you as I was clarifying my position. I assumed you didn't understand my position otherwise you wouldn't have made that comparison between Nick and Rafs +/-, suggesting that that's the only way I measure a player's defensive play. Like most here I assume, I watch the games. Watching the past 3-4 seasons I have noticed Nick on the ice for goals that simply make me shake my head numerous times. That wasn't the case for me prior to that. That might be a misperception on my part but I used to never worry when Nick was on the ice. It was almost a given that the puck wasn't going in our net. That has changed some over time. Doesn't necessarily mean Nick isn't still better than everyone else. Perhaps it just means I think Nick isn't as good as Nick used to be.

Overall game, ability to generate both offense and strong defensive play. Probably Chara would be near the top of my list today with Nick. Nick's been head and shoulders above everybody for so long it's hard for people to fathom him not being the clear cut #1. Well, unfortunately players do age and I think anybody who thinks Nick is as good defensively as he was even a couple of years ago and that no other dman in the league could possibly touch him is suffering from a mild case of bias. I'm not saying he can't be the best dman in the league on any given night. What i'm saying is I think the conversation has changed (at least outside of Detroit and us Wings fans) that he's not the #1, best overall, nobody close to him hands down, no discussion, no debate. If I had 1 game, needed 1 guy, total package, most times I'd probably still say Nick. If I had 1 game and I need 1 guy to simply shut somebody down, maybe I still go with Nick. Maybe I go with somebody else like Chara. Maybe (lord please don't strike me down) maybe I even go with Chris Pronger. It's just my opinion. There's no right or wrong to it I think. I just personally think there are some guys who are as good defensively as Nick nowadays. Which says a lot for a guy Nick's age to still be considered by many the best in the game. Yup. That's how I feel. Still superb but not exactly as superb as we're accustomed to. That's all i'm saying. Not trying to bash the guy. Still, Nick is part of a team that defensively, is not getting it down. This team, with the amount of solid defensive forwards and system, ought never to be in the bottom 1/2 or for god's sake 1/3 of the Western conf. in goals allowed. That's unacceptable imo. We don't play to the end of the game always, been like that for years. Nick is a part of that. Like I said before, not the main culprit but we can't just blame everybody and say Nick is infallible. He makes mistakes too. He's been on the ice for some pretty horrendous goals against. Nothing new. Just seems to be happening more and more as the years go by.

Actually, Lidstrom's defensive play is still solid and i've never said otherwise. Did you not understand when I alluded to that in other posts? What I have said is that it is not what it used to be and that it wasn't necessarily a reflection just on him but on the entire team's less than stellar defensive play. Although I might have stated that in Wings Cup chances thread so perhaps you didn't see it. Furthermore, I clearly stated that I would still choose Nick over any other Red Wings defenseman regarding this topic. So your question about Rafalski is either simply an attempt to goad me or somewhere in my posts you've come to the wrong conclusion that you think I base everything on +/-. Of course I also posted that +/- is not the end all say when determining defensive play. It appears that either I am not being clear enough for you or you are simply ignoring the things I say that you don't have issue with, instead choosing to misconstrue anything I say that disagrees with you or impugns Nick's abilities even in the slightest. As for the validity of your statement. I'm not sure which statement you're referring to. Insomuch as your position that its valid. Well, that seems to be par for the course for a message board. One's own points are always right.

Rest assured I understand the position of defense well enough imo. I played it for over 20 years. And i'll have to respectfully disagree with you regarding statistics. You're statement is nothing more than pure hyperbole. Note that I did not state that statistical data is the only measure. But stats do provide useful barometers for some things. Let me pose a question to you for my own reference. Let's say Nick were to finish in the top 3 in D scoring. But finishes the year out at a -10. Would your opinion change at all? How about at -15? -20? Is there a +/- number out there that you think would simply disqualify a person from Norris contention?

That's your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. My opinion is that it's debatable at this point.

True. But it's one thing to go from a +40 to a +20. +20 is a very respectable number. It's entirely another thing to be -2 at this point in the year when your name is Nick Lidstrom. Has anyone ever won the Norris with a negative +/-? I think it would be sort of funny to see it happen considering most people I know gripe that it has turned into largely a who is the best offensive dman award. Granted you have to play d too or Mike Green would've won it a few years back. Still, winning the Norris and not even being on the plus side would seem to run somewhat counter to the very spirit of the award.

While I would still take Nick over any other Red Wings dman. It's getting harder and harder to say with 100% certainty that i'd take Nick over any other dman in the league. Pointing out the disparity in Raf's and Nick's +/- got you nothing but cricket chirps. That's because I don't think people here will easily come to grips with anything that reflects negatively on Nick. Comparing their +/- probably shouldn't be the end all say all nor an accurate indication of who is playing better (perhaps it is), the simple truth is Nick has been on the ice for FAR TOO MANY goals. The team needs to play better and frankly, so does Nick. Like I said earlier I think he'll tighten it up come crunch time but i'm not going to conveniently sweep this under the rug because Nick is "a god". He's not playing well enough defensively. His numbers are reflecting that. He is capable of playing better though and he will, of that I am confident.

I agree. Frankly, I don't think his +/- will really hurt him this year. Especially if he's going up against Yandle, Viz, Buff, etc..... There's been a definite swing in the names we typically see at the top. Take Chara for instance, nobody can argue his isn't an elite defender, perhaps even better than Nick these days. Boston's numbers sure do reflect much better as a team than ours. But he's so far down the list points wise. If you look at the top 20 guys (points wise) there's really nobody there you could argue is better than Nick. TBH, the field seems so weak this year. Weber, Doughty, Keith, Seabrook, they're all in the pack but not at the top of it and the guys who are higher up, Goligoski, Wizniewski, Burns, Ehrhoff, anybody really going to push hard for them as candidates? Nick may well end up winning his weakest Norris ever simply because the competition isn't up to par this year.