Wheelchairsuperhero

I've been humoring you for the last several pages. This is the first thing you've said I've found legitimately irritating though, so score one for you. I believe the conversation has sufficiently devolved to a close.

It is straw manning to continually change the narrative of my argument. kr pretty much sums it up for me. You're not actually including they're entire seasons because it doesn't fit for you (because there's no real reason to not include his games with the Blues), and we're also apparently arguing two different things. I believe including the PP when determining someone's offensive worth is important, you don't. Seems wrong but hey, that's your opinion man. I'm gonna say something I've already said a handful of times, if you don't care about it feel free to no longer argue it. Zadina has been the better offensive player since joining the team.

You're the one who keeps talking about their "season". I'm simply pointing out what I said extends beyond 26 games. I just realized you've been doing that other fallacy everyone loves to call each other out for around here. You've been straw-manning the crap out of my argument, and when I finally point out all the misinformation you just say "congrats I guess". I'm not going to bother to keep defending myself from it, It's pointless and irrelevant to the point I've reiterated multiple times. At the end of the day hating on Zadina is the trendy thing to do. It's an over-correction to the post draft hype after he didn't immediately become a superstar. But it's tiring, he's playing like one of our best players right now so just enjoy it while it lasts.

I mentioned that a post shortly after, I'm not going to go keep digging them up because you want to point fingers at me. Isn't that some of kind logical fallacy? I forget which one. It doesn't matter anyway, his points per 60 is better if you include the entire season too (both st louis and red wings). Just not your fabled 5v5 tell all metric. Zadina has produced better this season. I'm having a good time, but that's a subtle sprinkling of salt if I've ever seen it.

alright. and I didn't set out to prove it, I just said it and you argued it. Thanks though, don't sound too upset about it jesus.

It was actually this from the start, I was very clear about it. You can even read what your own post was about. I mentioned those secondary stats once because I noticed them and found them interesting. I don't know why you're so focused on them.

considering my argument concerns recency, yes. I'm using the pertinent statistics.Your argument is lacking substance, you just keep pointing the finger at me lol.

I prefer the guy who does both, that ultimately adds up to more than the other guy doing both. I prefer the guy who produces more. I didn't say it wasn't discounting what he did before Zadina joined, I'm saying it's irrelevant to my point. Pierre Mcguire said during the game that Zadina was a potential "25-30 scorer, if he gets there." Surprise Pierre, he's literally on that pace already. Dude's just a hockey trivia wiz, I still think he's pretty stupid.

This change happened several games ago.

He scored his goal on PP2 and I don't recall ever seeing him on 1, for the past few games that is. Since he's been on the team he's 5th in pp time. You know who's first? It starts with an F. In fact Fabbri's third since he joined the team, just behind Larkin and Bertuzzi. I've referenced offensive talent multiple times, you must not be reading closely. It's how the conversation started when I quoted your list of offensive talent. My point is that Zadina is the better offensive player right now, he is. Originally, I only meant recently, but really if you look at Fabbri's total 43 games (both Wings and Blues) his points per 60 is just lower. That's all strengths of course, because PP matters imo. Statistically, 5v5 points per game numbers support Fabbri if you include all of Fabbri's 43 games (1.7 vs 1.57). That's pretty much it though. Zadina shoots more, scores more, creates more rebounds, has more rush attempts, is involved in the goals that are scored when he's on the ice more, and most importantly has been better the last 26 games even 5v5. Also, he's doing it at 20 in his first real season. Anecdotally and statistically, I prefer Zadina. Also, 26 games isn't really a "small sample hot streak". It's a large chunk of the season.

No, I've read your posts about Zadina. I was asking if you watched because if you had you would know he's not on PP1 anymore. I'm not sure if you misunderstood or just dodged me there. I'm not basing my opinion on my eyeball test, I've actually never said anything like that (though if I was I'd say he's noticeably more dangerous too), I'm telling you it's not anecdotal because I'm staring at a side by side of all their stats. 5v5 play is important, and I would probably use it exclusively if we were talking simply "who's the best player", but we're talking about offensive talent. If you don't think the PP is important for that I'm not sure what else to say. I've never really understood the negative connotation associated with being a "pp specialist" either. Special teams are a hugely important part of the game lol. But I think labelling someone a pp specialist simply because he's good on the PP is silly anyways, Zadina has more points 5v5. I did get you there btw, if you look at the last few weeks all his stats are better. He's better at this moment. I'm not sure why you're even arguing this part tbh. The bolded is good news, Zadina has scored at a higher rate even strength than Fabbri since he's been on the team.

I was concerned with his start in GR, but what a turnaround. I'm pretty confident he's going to be at minimum a good top 6er for a long time. I think if he adds strength and learns to play more physical, the sky's the limit.

I literally have the games recorded, I will most definitely trust my own eyeballs over some random source you link. I ask again, have you been watching? And again, it's not anecdotal, you're simply valuing stats differently than I am. For example, It's ridiculous to not include PP time when evaluating offensive talent. This has gotten a bit convoluted so I'm going to simplify back to my original point, Zadina is the better offensive player right now. He just is, using the not so small sample size of the entire time he's been on the Wings roster. I never said he's been better than Fabbri the entire season. I happen to like Fabbri, and think he's just fighting it right now. I also think he's being used wrong on the PP and would excel in the bumper spot. I don't like him on the walls and I REALLY don't like him quarterbacking from the top. My point on Zadina's minutes were simply that Blashill is no longer playing Fabbri more than him, so that point you were making earlier was moot. Doesn't swing the pendulum largely one way or the other, but Zadina's on pace for more goals. I do like goals better. edit: Also, to be clear, the conversation has been mostly fair and totally cordial, kudos.

Have you watched the games? I have been, closely, he hasn't been. I'm not going to argue this point because some website says otherwise. It does matter when you take into consideration the context that Zadina was essentially brand new to the NHL outside of his 9 game stint last season. I of course expect Fabbri, someone with considerably more experience, to have been better while Zadina acclimated. Hence the thing I'll keep parroting and you'll keep ignoring, "Zadina has been the better player since joining the team." You can keep trying to turn my argument into something it's not, but at the end of the day I'm objectively right. Outside of the stats, he's been moved to line 1 and has averaged more ice time than Fabbri lately, so the argument that Fabbri gets played more for being better are out the window there too.

Zadina has been on PP2 for multiple games now. I'm not cherry picking when he got hot, I'm cherry picking when he joined the NHL. Should I include his AHL stats? Because personally, I think that'd be stupid. I've said numerous times that Zadina has been the better player "since joining the team."

Being on PP1 should definitely be an advantage over PP2. It just illustrates my point that Zadina is the one who should be on PP1 and Fabbri looks lost out there. And like I said, I was talking about offensive talent. I consider being good on the PP an important part of being a good offensive player. At the end of the day though, Zadina has been the better point per 60 5v5 player since joining the team anyways, so he's better in both respects. I'm with you though, it's a relatively small sample size and I could be arguing for Fabbri instead in a few weeks, we still don't know if Zadina has found his consistency really. I just think if we're talking right now, he's better. I don't dislike Fabbri, in fact I really hope Zadina learns how to play a bit more physical from him. That's something I've openly critiqued him on (though he hits more than I thought).

I think numbers for 5v5 are generally fair, but I'm not using them here because we were specifically talking about offensive talent and they're both on the PP. This should be an advantage for Fabbri anyway considering he's on PP1 and Zadina's not. But, just for fun I looked at the 5v5 numbers for the last 26 games (how many Zadina has played) and Zadina's scoring per 60 is still better. I couldn't remember specifically when Zadina joined the top line so I looked for the last 4 games. All strengths Zadina's points per 60 is 3.48 vs Fabbri's .91. 5v5 It's Zadina with 2.13 vs 1.33. To be fair to both sides that's a small sample size, if you know how many games he's actually been on the first line feel free to correct me. I also think it's fair to point out a lot of Zadina's other numbers are better too. Shot blocking, takeaways, and the one I like the most is goals per 60. The takeaways is also by a considerable margin, he's got a sneaky good stick.

2.33 vs 2.35, this is an insanely negligible difference and makes for a weak argument. And like I said, I think Zadina being obviously better is a recent development due to adjusting to the nhl. I'm willing to bet if you look at just the last couple of weeks, Zadina's scoring per 60 will be better. Not to mention, he's been on the top line the last handful of games (where he's looked good) so I'm not sure where this "harder minutes" business is coming in. I'm pretty ignorant as far as advanced stats go, so feel free to school me here. But a lot of the things I see seem to be mostly a wash, so I'd say at this point there's a case to be made they're basically equal, but I'd say given the last few games Zadina's just better at this point in time. edit: Turns out you can filter for the last 15 games played (thanks naturalstattrick). per 60 over the last 15 games Zadina is 2.1 vs Fabbri's 1.83. In fact, most of his numbers seem to be better if I'm reading that right. To further this, since Zadina has been on the team his scoring per 60 has been better.

Based on what? Zadina has been noticeably better offensively, is low key this team's best passer, and even without the eyeballs his stat line is better too. this list for sure

I've no idea why Fabbri is on PP1, he looks uncomfortable right now with the man advantage. I thought these two players were basically redundant a couple weeks ago, I no longer think this.

can someone explain to me why this is still so vague? Why can't we divulge what this "mid-body/rib" mystery injury is? I'm with you mostly, but to be fair to Mantha I don't think the weird body slam thing that happened is what he, or anyone, anticipated from a scrum. I'd rather just see him play physical and throw some hits than get into anymore fights though.

I was just feeling sassy, it does appear that Cholowski sucks. Although the connection with our names does make me feel like we're actually eternal rivals. You know, something like GOKU AND VEGETA . Maybe we should change our avatars...

you sucks

Raymond or Stutzle, though my opinion is still very fluid at this point. Of all the major names I probably know the least about Drysdale, and since we took Seider last year I went for a forward this time.

Zadina's physical game still needs work, but I feel like that's pretty common with new NHLers. Plus it's waaaay better than it was last year, so that makes me optimistic. To be clear I also really like Fabbri. Guy's a perfect Nyquist replacement and we got him for De La Plug. What a deal. To your point he's way more physical than I was expecting too.