LeftWinger

Hey now this is a Blue Collar Hockey Forum, enough with the words that need to be Webstered! (yes, I am bring back the Webster's Dictionary! To hell with Google! ) If we are comparing this build to our Cup Dyansty build relative to players age and when UFA's started knocking on our door, we still have a 5-10 year window to become that elite destination WITH our current "core." THEN: Yzerman 31, Shanahan 28, Fedorov 27, Lidstrom 26, when the first Cup was won. ALL of them 5 PLUS years into their careers. Lids and Feds to least with 6, and they all won 2-3 more before they retired. So with our current core here is where we stand: (not saying these players will have careers like the ones above, just comparing core ages) Larkin - 23, AA - 25, Mantha - 25, Hronek - 22, Seider - 18, Zadina - 19, Rasmussen - 19, Cholowski - 20, Bertuzzi - 24 We can still have most if not all of those players in 5 years and they'd still be in their window for a Cup. But our history has also shown that before 1997, we were making trades, signing players to help lift us to that elite status. I'm good with a 1-2 year window to let these players establish themselves, but sometime within that time frame or right after, we MUST decide to make a few trades, sign some aging (27-31) UFA's to make this team even that much better. Ray Sheppard did not win a Cup here, but him signing here and the points he put up most definitely helped make this team a more attractive place for players to come to, plus we dealt him for Larionov. We traded for Coffey, which made us more attractive and even a better team and then traded him for Shanahan. The bold moves Jimmy D/Murray/Bowman made did it's part. I want excitement now, but I also don't want to be a splash in the pan. Signing 31 year old UFA's now, before our core is an established force (whomever the players will be in that core) would be counter active. Unless you are signing stop-gap players because your current ones stink beyond belief and you want to put some butts in the seats. But we all know, by the time we win a Cup, the likes of Filppula, Howard, Nielsen won't be around. Maybe even Abby and Helm as well. in 5-10 years they will be replaced with someone. hopefully we are relevant enough that their replacements are high end Cup seeking UFA's or via trading prospects/picks for that top end player that everyone is trying to acquire.

We've proven that already too. We had LETHAL offensive talent, an Elite D-Man supported by a VERY solid to star cast, backed up by a very good to almost great goalie in Chris Osgood. Sure, we won a Cup with Vernon and All-World Hasek. We aren't getting an everyday shot at anther Hasek in the near future (if ever again,I feel he was the best in the world) and of course Vernie was a hot goalie at the right time. Ozzie developed, and became a goalie who at times could give up the bad goal (but so could Hasek and Roy) and was good enough to win you a game when your team just wasn't on point that night. He made some gaffs, he made some elite saves. But (even though most of us wold love to see him in the HOF and rafters) we can all agree (even though his stats say otherwise) he was never in the same conversation as the likes of Roy, Brodeur, Hasek. They were considered by 100% of the NHL to be Elite. Again, no pun intended, but we did dominate when we got Hasek, but if you look at our best year "statistically" we had Vernon and Osgood in net, we just had an unstoppable O and Lidstrom/Coffey, two dominating Russians and a solid backup cast on D. It'd be nice to have that "Elite" goalie, but I agree, I feel that having a nice solid G with most of your talent in front of him wins Cups. How many Cups does Montreal have with Price? How many Cups did Hasek have until he was traded here?

which is why, IMO, that Holland should've went with D instead of Zadina. I get the whole "Zadina was projected #3" stuff, I get it, but you don't get a shot at a Quinn Hughes/Evan Bouchard at every draft. The draft usually has more quality forwards available in the teens and 20's than D, I feel our team would've been in a better situation by drafting, let's say, Hughes, Veleno, McIsaac instead of Zadina. He has a lot of nets to fill to make up for us not taking D. With my history, I feel that I am going to scrutinize him for his entire career if he doesn't. I hope not, , but you all know how bad I was with Hossa v. Franzen! To me, my unfair high expectations is going to be 35+ goals a year and 10+ per playoff year(s) in order to make up for not drafting D. But again, that is just going by my past, I hope that I am not that critical anymore and when/if he does well, I just enjoy the 6 out of 9 Stanley Cups we'll be celebrating in the coming years! (wouldn't that be nice!) Bottom line is, life is full of "what-ifs" we have to move forward no matter what. What if we were able to draft Bure when we tried to, what if Gretzky chose Detroit instead of LA, what if the limo hadn't crashed, what if Marty Lapointe took less money to stay here, what if The Isles took Heatley instead of DePietro, what if they didn't take LaFontaine and Devellano did..what if the moon were made of cheese (would you eat it?) what if life was fair to everyone....you get it. In the history of drafts, there have been more busts than booms. Here's to hoping that Zadina IS filling nets in the NHL SOON and that the four D you mentioned above ARE legit NHL starters and a couple of stars too! We only need ONE "Elite" D along with 2 or 3 2nd tier stars, we've proven that already. Establish who is elite, build him a nice cast of supporting talented line-mates and we're golden.

Veleno just may end up better than Zadina... question is, what do we do if Veleno outplays the other C's this fall and deserves to make the team?

you better get your heart off of him. Detroit isn't going to get the #1 pick, won't even get 2 or 3.

Holland is probably asking too much in trade for him as well.

I appreciate the effort to generate some chatter during this boring off season. The only thing I feel would not be fair is if we had a 16 team playoff for the #1 pick, chances are pretty good that the #1 seed in that tourney would win the #1 pick and that would be the the team that finished 16th, one spot outside of the playoffs. Even if it wasn't them, odds are a team within the 10-16 range would win it every-time, so in reality that would screw teams that legit stink and finish in the bottom 5 for a few years (like us.) Again, great write up, thank you! You put a lot of though into it, but I think, the best way to stop "rewarding teams" that finish just out of the playoff or are just off winning 3 Cups in 6 years by giving them a top 3 pick or #1 OA, is to only put the bottom five in the lottery, the rest stay right where they finish. That way you don't have a 14th seed jumping to #2 or a team like Chicago, fresh off wining 3 Cups in the last 8 seasons getting a top 5. It wouldn't necessarily stop a "tank" but it would stop teams like Philly, NJ or Chicago getting "gifts." we could do a #1/#2 playoff. That would be very fun to watch! Although, how would your scenario impact teams that have traded away a 1st round pick? Example Ottawa, whom finished last, and had to give their pick to Colorado, would they play "hard enough" to win the tourney just to watch Colorado pick Jack Hughes? Or would they "tank" the tourney, so Colorado would have to pick 16th? Would they want to play at all considering they don't even get to make the pick?

I'd like a little excitement, but looking at what he's done (not the draft, that's been covered) UFA signing of Filppula: Yzerman most definitely has history with Val, from his days in Detroit and to Tampa. Yzerman "watched" this team from day one, plus I am sure he "watched" all of our current prospects. Obviously Yzerman feels that Val is a better option than Nielsen for 2nd line C. I know most of you guys here would like to see Nielsen gone, so this is actually an upgrade in Yzerman's opinion. I also think that Veleno isn't quite ready for the NHL and it will take a year in GR, then some split time in 20-21 and Flip is a perfect stop gap for that time frame. UFA signing of Nemeth: Two words, Ericsson and Daley. Patrik Nemeth is better at this point in their career's than either of them. Mike Green will probably not finish the season due to his nagging virus. If he starts the season at all. Realistically, the ONLY "kid" ready to make the jump up to Detroit is Hronek. Cholowski is not ready and Yzerman said himself that Dennis has to go and work on his D-Zone. So if you look at our D in Detroit, signing Nemeth is also an upgrade for our D. Along with Hronek here full-time. IMO, they should sign Kronwall (if he can play) and waive both Daley and Ericsson. Kronwall at 38 is better than both of those guys as well. UFA signing of Pickard: Face it, our Goalies are horrible. Sure Howard played well enough to earn him some looks around from other teams at the TDL and earned himself a year contract, but he's old and will not be around for much longer, let alone to see our rebuild to the end. Bernier is just hot garbage and was the biggest waste of money. I hope that Pickard plays well enough to get a job here and they waive Bernier to GR. Like I said, I'd like to see a little more bold moves to peak my excitement, but there were reason's why Yzerman signed the above guys, not just for depth, not just for loyalty, not because they called us. He signed them because, even though they were not high end players, they are all better than some of our current NHL roster right now.

This may shed some light on him: http://sabreslegends.blogspot.com/2006/12/ray-sheppard.html From what I read it sounds like he already wasn't in their favor because of his (lack of) speed, (lack of) physical play and was not very agile. He had a great rookie season, regressed the next year, then hurt himself and only played 18 games his 3rd season. So I guess Buffalo figured since he regressed after his rookie season, he probably would be of no use after his ankle injury....hence the VERY little in return from The Rags. Looking back, most Buffalo fans feel that was their worst trade in franchise history, followed by trading Hasek to Detroit. https://lastwordonhockey.com/2017/07/31/13887/ Thanks Buffalo, both trades helped us very much! There's also this: http://www.buffalohockeybeat.com/ray-sheppards-rookie-season-still-one-of-sabres-best/ so I guess the coach felt if he isn't going to play his way, then we don't want him...stupid coaches.

Yes, I believe Hronek is here for sure. They have already been reports that Cholowski was told by Yzerman that he needs to work on his D-zone, so that pretty much tells us he is in GR to start, and probably for most of the year. I'd like to see a couple of others (who regularly out-play the vets in the pre-season) make the club. Hicketts and Saarijarvi being two of them. I also hope Kaski outplays as well. IMO, all four of these guys deserve a spot over Ericsson, Daley and Green, especially if this truly is a "tank" year, then why not give your kids a true legit shot to prove they are NHL players? I know Hicketts has been around for some years and may not be a regular NHL guy, but IMO he is a better choice than those 3 vets, unless of course Green is 100% healthy, then he can be kept. But in reality,I think we are just going to see Hronek up here along with Nemeth and Bowey rounding out the 7 D. Up front is pretty much set, we have 12 now, I think you are only going to see Hirose and Kuffner (or Ehn) up here to start. I still think they are gong to keep Zadina in GR. Maybe he'll come in and command a spot though. So even if that happens, I think Zadina and Hirose are they guys. I know Smith says this is his year, but he has a hard road to climb, plus Turgeon is no longer waiver eligible.

this is true, we don't NEED to clear cap space, plus we have about $10M in LTIR in our pockets to potentially use as well. But for me, it's about getting young talented players in here when they are available. But like you said, we don't know behind the scenes. Gusev had no control as to where he went, but Yzerman drafted him, Gusev opted for the KHL, and also traded his rights to Vegas, so maybe Yzerman didn't want him here. Just as long as the better player gets the spot, it'll be fine. I do not like the tank, it doesn't work. I just hope that two or three young players beat out some of these vets, then maybe we'll see some justified benching and/or waivers. @Euro_Twins Nobody is really whining, just would like to see us acquire young talented players that are available to help our rebuild. We don't know the relationship between Yzerman and Gusev, so the point is moot, but even though in two years we'll be without Green, Ericsson, Daley, Helm ( I think he gets re-signed though) Howard, Flip, disney.com and Nemeth, acquiring a player today that could be part of our rebuild doesn't hurt. If we made that deal for Gusev, it would not have hurt our rebuild in any way. We'd still have spots for kids, we'd still have over $10M in cap (via LTIR) if needed, we'd still have plenty of money to re-sign AA, Mantha and Bertuzzi next summer. It would've just added another talented young player to that mix. That's all we are saying. In other news, the Jackets have over $15M in cap space open, why hasn't Werenski signed yet? They cannot be seriously trying to low-ball him can they? He's worth every penny of $8M+. I am a player in a deal if the Jackets want to talk! AA, Berggren, 2020 1st (lottery protected to 2021) is my first offer. (and you guys know I LOVE AA.) Also, wonder what the dealings between Winnipeg and Laine are going like? You would think they'd want that kid re-signed as soon as possible! There are actually some interesting RFA's still out there unsigned.

I'm becoming very disappointed in our "rebuild" off season. This would've totally been worth giving up for Gusev. I don't like that Yzerman has not been involved with anything like this. I don't like that all three of Daley, Ericsson and Green are still on the team. I like that he hasn't traded any of our "core" but a draft pick or two wouldn't hurt our rebuild. Here's to hoping something good happens to generate excitement, because so far it's Holland 2.0...not excited at all.

only if we finish last will we get #32. we could get #1 by finishing 14th.

AHL vs. NHL 2 pro leagues, yet 2 leagues of their own. no comparison.

you're talking AHL to NHL.

I'm thinking he wouldn't have taken him if we remained 4th or better. but 5th or worse, yes.

I say we look at the UFA's left, try to get an upgrade via that way or trade. push for the playoffs now.

I wish it would happen now! But at least Daley, Ericsson and Green only have the 1 year left. Let's HOPE that Yzerman does not offer them contracts! BTW, have we seen any news on Kronwall?

Plus we aren't getting the #1 OA. It just isn't happening.

None that I know of for sure, but it just seems that we never get any bones to chew on. The guy would probably have been a top 3 guy here, again not that I advocated for him, but he waived his list to go to Ottawa for that very reason, to play a bigger role. He could've been in a larger role here as well, plus I think we are a little better off than Ottawa. But oh well...

How did The Wings become so taboo? we are not the worst team in the league, some teams haven't made the playoffs in a decade, yet we're always on the no trade lists. we aren't that bad and you would think that a D would be interested in coming here because we lack good players at that spot, so they may get a bigger role here too. I just don't get it. is it the area? not that I really wanted him, but it's depressing to always see us on no trade lists.

When it comes to trading one of our core, you guys know I am against it, BUT if it came to acquiring RFA Zach Werenski? I'd trade 1 of Mantha, AA, Rasmussen or Zadina PLUS another prospect (Berggren or McIsaac?) AND a lottery protected 2020 1st for him. He is the ONLY D that I would make that deal for in today's NHL. I wonder what the hold up is on signing him? They have plenty of cap space. They took a huge hit UFA day, maybe he isn't liking the direction of the team and is holding out? Haven't heard much on him.

I know this is a Red Wings prospect thread, but without looking for the 2018 draft thread, I thought I'd bring this little laugh in here to lighten up our off season! The Blue jackets have a signed prospect drafted in the 7th round, a G named Shamil Shamakov, he plays for Sibirskie Snaipery Novosiborsk. I love it! it has Laverne and Shirley written all over it! So in your best version of the L&S opening sing it with me! "Shamil! Shabakov! Sibirski Snaipery Novosiborsk!"

I thin the 2020 rebuild should involve making the playoffs in 19-20. I am tired of watching throw away season's and not even draft as high as we should've. The lottery system stinks. If we could've drafted 4th this year we'd have Byrum. But even if we made the playoffs, and lost inthe 1st round, and drafted around 14-16, the names that went in those spots were Caufield, Krebs, Newhook, so it's not like we would've have crap to choose from. I happen to feel that we have done better in the 15-20 range anyhow, ie. Larkin, Mantha, Cholowski. In the past 3 drafts, if we would've made the playoffs and lost in the 1st, here are some names that were available in that Range: 2017: Foote, Liljegren 2018: Farabee, Ty Smith and 2019 listed above. Not that those guys are any better than what we chose, but my point is, we wouldn't have lost out on anybody really. ( I get that Zadina and Seider remain to be seen what they can do, but you see what I meant by it.) We've made lateral moves this season, I don't see Yzerman buying out Ericsson or Daley, so it looks like we are basically going to be yet another lottery team that wants to be "competitive" and we'll wind up draft 6-10 again, losing out on a franchise type player in the top 4 and drafting a player that may not be worth the spot again. I'm just saying that I want to see us back in the playoffs this year. Whether we lose in the 1st, so what, I'd be perfectly happy drafting at 14-20 as I would 6-13. Here is an early 2020 prospect list top 31: https://prospectpipeline.ca/2019/06/20/2020-nhl-draft-ranking-top-31-off-season/

Well, Toronto has $10.5M that can be used as LTIR, so what is stopping Marner from taking a 1 year deal at $10M then getting a larger deal next year? Especially if they are in a win now mode, this could be their only window for a few years, considering they only have 1 D signed past this season they really need to go for it.