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#21 eva unit zero

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 01:43 AM

QUOTE (ARice89 @ November 24, 2005 - 01:37AM)
QUOTE (youssp9 @ November 23, 2005 - 11:58PM)
XBOX 360 is wayyyyyy over rated. The games are bad and so is there selection. Just wait 3-4 months when the PS3 comes out which will be 2x the power as the XBOX 360 and will have a BETTER and BIGGER game selection along will a setback to allow you to even play your PS1 games on it along with ps2. The XBOX 360 only allows CERTAIN titles from the first XBOX to be played on the XBOX 360.

Just wait.... the PS3 will be even better.....
thumbup.gif

Oh, well everyone wants to play their PS1 games!

Who cares?

I do. PS1 had great games.
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#22 Jedi

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 01:58 AM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ November 24, 2005 - 02:43AM)
PS1 had great games.

That it did. Metal Gear Solid is still my all time favorite game.

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#23 dallas27

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 12:25 PM

Matt, did you get a bundle or just the system itself?

FYI youssp3 PS3 will not be 2x as more powerful, in fact I think the 360 is more powerful than the PS3. But it doesn't matter it's the same dang machine with the same graphics. 360 has a hard drive, that is the only difference.


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#24 redwings1914

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 12:45 PM

QUOTE (Mattias19 @ November 24, 2005 - 12:18AM)
(BTW, I pick my 360 up on Monday.)

Good for you Matt!

I should have mine in about 3 weeks from now! smile.gif
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#25 eva unit zero

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 03:14 PM

Hear the news on the3 Xbox 360?

Apparently a large number have been reported to not play certain games at all, as well as have serious crashing problems with other games.

Nice work Microsoft...way to rush the job.
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#26 Jedi

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 03:29 PM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ November 24, 2005 - 04:14PM)
Hear the news on the3 Xbox 360?

Apparently a large number have been reported to not play certain games at all, as well as have serious crashing problems with other games.

Nice work Microsoft...way to rush the job.

They're also ponying up to it, and offering to overnight repair/replace the defective 360 if users have a problem with it. Unlike Apple with their whole iPod Nano "it's-your-own-stupid-fault" debacle...

Story on CNN.com and Engadget.com.

Microsoft also said that it wasn't as widespread as people are claiming it to be (not surprising that a PR spokesperson would say that though).


Taken from the article...
QUOTE
"We have received a few isolated reports of consoles not working as expected," Microsoft spokeswoman Molly O'Donnell told Reuters in a telephone interview.

Enthusiast Web sites, such as www.engadget.com and www.xbox-scene.com, as well as Microsoft's own Xbox Web forum carried postings from Xbox 360 owners on Wednesday reporting that some systems had crashed during regular play as well as during online game play using the Xbox Live service...

...O'Donnell, who declined to say how many reports the company had received, said calls represent a "very, very small fraction" of units sold. The number of calls was not unexpected, she said.

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#27 eva unit zero

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 03:35 PM

QUOTE (Jedi4Jesus @ November 24, 2005 - 04:29PM)
QUOTE (eva unit zero @ November 24, 2005 - 04:14PM)
Hear the news on the3 Xbox 360?

Apparently a large number have been reported to not play certain games at all, as well as have serious crashing problems with other games.

Nice work Microsoft...way to rush the job.

They're also ponying up to it, and offering to overnight repair/replace the defective 360 if users have a problem with it. Unlike Apple with their whole iPod Nano "it's-your-own-stupid-fault" debacle...

Story on CNN.com and Engadget.com.

Microsoft also said that it wasn't as widespread as people are claiming it to be (not surprising that a PR spokesperson would say that though).


Taken from the article...
QUOTE
"We have received a few isolated reports of consoles not working as expected," Microsoft spokeswoman Molly O'Donnell told Reuters in a telephone interview.

Enthusiast Web sites, such as www.engadget.com and www.xbox-scene.com, as well as Microsoft's own Xbox Web forum carried postings from Xbox 360 owners on Wednesday reporting that some systems had crashed during regular play as well as during online game play using the Xbox Live service...

...O'Donnell, who declined to say how many reports the company had received, said calls represent a "very, very small fraction" of units sold. The number of calls was not unexpected, she said.

The number of calls would have been unexpected if they hadn't rushed the Xbox.
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#28 J-Swift

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Posted 24 November 2005 - 10:48 PM

QUOTE (youssp9 @ November 24, 2005 - 06:55PM)
QUOTE (dallas27 @ November 24, 2005 - 01:25PM)
Matt, did you get a bundle or just the system itself?

FYI youssp3 PS3 will not be 2x as more powerful, in fact I think the 360 is more powerful than the PS3.  But it doesn't matter it's the same dang machine with the same graphics.  360 has a hard drive, that is the only difference.

FYI dallas27 the Ps3 will be 2x more powerful then the Xbox 360 FOR A FACT! I just read it and I will give you the article.

XBOX 360 VS. PS3

Yeah, I was aware of how much better PS3 was supposed to be than 360, and I was kinda waiting it out to maybe see what it's like before I choose between Sony or Microsoft, since I'm only getting one (money is a little tight).

I have a PS2 and I really do enjoy the system, but I've taken interest in a lot of the games currently out for Xbox, and the games that are set to be released on the 360; I absolutely love Halo.

I'm going to have a tough time trying to choose between the two systems.

#29 youssp9

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 09:44 AM

QUOTE (J-Swift @ November 24, 2005 - 11:48PM)
QUOTE (youssp9 @ November 24, 2005 - 06:55PM)
QUOTE (dallas27 @ November 24, 2005 - 01:25PM)
Matt, did you get a bundle or just the system itself?

FYI youssp3 PS3 will not be 2x as more powerful, in fact I think the 360 is more powerful than the PS3.  But it doesn't matter it's the same dang machine with the same graphics.  360 has a hard drive, that is the only difference.

FYI dallas27 the Ps3 will be 2x more powerful then the Xbox 360 FOR A FACT! I just read it and I will give you the article.

XBOX 360 VS. PS3

Yeah, I was aware of how much better PS3 was supposed to be than 360, and I was kinda waiting it out to maybe see what it's like before I choose between Sony or Microsoft, since I'm only getting one (money is a little tight).

I have a PS2 and I really do enjoy the system, but I've taken interest in a lot of the games currently out for Xbox, and the games that are set to be released on the 360; I absolutely love Halo.

I'm going to have a tough time trying to choose between the two systems.

Yea, see I thought the 360 was going to be really good and I was go get one untill i saw that the ps3 would be better. So I decided to wait, 4-5 months. smile.gif

#30 dallas27

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 02:14 PM

Well, if your money is tight I would not consider the PS3

My uncle saw something on it called G3 or something and the PS3 is going to be $500 for the system ALONE and $80 for the games. That is no where near worth the money, at least for me. I mean you beat the game and then what? The game just sits there, what a waste of 80 bucks. The 360 system alone is $299 I believe.


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#31 Jedi

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 04:59 PM

QUOTE (dallas27 @ November 25, 2005 - 03:14PM)
Well, if your money is tight I would not consider the PS3

My uncle saw something on it called G3 or something and the PS3 is going to be $500 for the system ALONE and $80 for the games. That is no where near worth the money, at least for me. I mean you beat the game and then what? The game just sits there, what a waste of 80 bucks. The 360 system alone is $299 I believe.

Still no official word about the Price/Release Date for the PS3. Odds are, I'd bet that it's in the same neighborhood as the 360, maybe $300-500 for the system itself, with bundle packages upwards of $700...

And the $299 version of the 360 is the crappy version. Spend the extra B. Franklin for the Premium system.

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#32 TheGoonSquad0208

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 09:20 PM

QUOTE (dallas27 @ November 25, 2005 - 03:14PM)
Well, if your money is tight I would not consider the PS3

My uncle saw something on it called G3 or something and the PS3 is going to be $500 for the system ALONE and $80 for the games.  That is no where near worth the money, at least for me.  I mean you beat the game and then what?  The game just sits there, what a waste of 80 bucks.  The 360 system alone is $299 I believe.

I heard just the Blue Ray Disc drive is 150.00, and they spent 1.2 Billion in developing the Cell Chip, which will be used in more than the PS3, they say its that powerful that it is also intended on computers hospitals use for X-Rays and etc.

Edited by TheGoonSquad0208, 25 November 2005 - 09:50 PM.


#33 Matt

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Posted 25 November 2005 - 10:09 PM

Was this an XBOX 360 thread or am I mistaken?

#34 Loiselle

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 02:30 PM

Proud Xbox 360 owner here. Got it at Midnight at the Wal*Mart in Woodhaven, Mi.... had to get a core, cause they only had 4 premium's in stock, and I was #14 in line. But I did get the Hard Drive, so I am set.

I should not, I repeat, SHOULD NOT have to do this again.... but I will.

This is from IGN.com.... as previously posted in these very forums a while back..... the proof is in the numbers.... let it be written, let it be done.

from IGN.com

XBOX 360 / PLAYSTATION 3 PERFORMANCE COMPARISON

SUMMARY
Now that the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 specifications have been announced, it is possible to do a real world performance comparison of the two systems.

There are three critical performance aspects of a console:

- Central Processing Unit (CPU) performance.
- The Xbox 360 CPU architecture has three times the general purpose processing power of the Cell.
- Graphics Processing Unit (GPU) performance
- The Xbox 360 GPU design is more flexible and it has more processing power than the PS3 GPU.
- Memory System Bandwidth
-The memory system bandwidth in Xbox 360 exceeds the PS3's by five times.


The Xbox 360's CPU has more general purpose processing power because it has three general purpose cores, and Cell has just one.

Cell's claimed advantage is on streaming floating point work which is done on its seven DSP processors.

The Xbox 360 GPU has more processing power than the PS3's. In addition, its innovated features contribute to overall rendering performance.

Xbox 360 has 278.4 GB/s of memory system bandwidth. The PS3 has less than one-fifth of Xbox 360's (48 GB/s) of total memory system bandwidth.

CONCLUSION
When you break down the numbers, Xbox 360 has provably more performance than PS3. Keep in mind that Sony has a track record of over promising and under delivering on technical performance. The truth is that both systems pack a lot of power for high definition games and entertainment.



CPU
The Xbox 360 processor was designed to give game developers the power that they actually need, in an easy to use form. The Cell processor has impressive streaming floating-point power that is of limited use for games.

The majority of game code is a mixture of integer, floating-point, and vector math, with lots of branches and random memory accesses. This code is best handled by a general purpose CPU with a cache, branch predictor, and vector unit.

The Cell's seven DSPs (what Sony calls SPEs) have no cache, no direct access to memory, no branch predictor, and a different instruction set from the PS3's main CPU. They are not designed for or efficient at general purpose computing. DSPs are not appropriate for game programming.

Xbox 360 has three general purpose CPU cores. The Cell processor has only one.

Xbox 360's CPUs has vector processing power on each CPU core. Each Xbox 360 core has 128 vector registers per hardware thread, with a dot product instruction, and a shared 1-MB L2 cache. The Cell processor's vector processing power is mostly on the seven DSPs.

Dot products are critical to games because they are used in 3D math to calculate vector lengths, projections, transformations, and more. The Xbox 360 CPU has a dot product instruction, where other CPUs such as Cell must emulate dot product using multiple instructions.

Cell's streaming floating-point work is done on its seven DSP processors. Since geometry processing is moved to the GPU, the need for streaming floating-point work and other DSP style programming in games has dropped dramatically.

Just like with the PS2's Emotion Engine, with its missing L2 cache, the Cell is designed for a type of game programming that accounts for a minor percentage of processing time.

Sony's CPU is ideal for an environment where 12.5% of the work is general-purpose computing and 87.5% of the work is DSP calculations. That sort of mix makes sense for video playback or networked waveform analysis, but not for games. In fact, when analyzing real games one finds almost the opposite distribution of general purpose computing and DSP calculation requirements. A relatively small percentage of instructions are actually floating point. Of those instructions which are floating-point, very few involve processing continuous streams of numbers. Instead they are used in tasks like AI and path-finding, which require random access to memory and frequent branches, which the DSPs are ill-suited to.

Based on measurements of running next generation games, only ~10-30% of the instructions executed are floating point. The remainders of the instructions are load, store, integer, branch, etc. Even fewer of the instructions executed are streaming floating point—probably ~5-10%. Cell is optimized for streaming floating-point, with 87.5% of its cores good for streaming floating-point and nothing else.

Game programmers do not want to spread their code over eight processors, especially when seven of the processors are poorly suited for general purpose programming. Evenly distributing game code across eight processors is extremely difficult.


GPU

Even ignoring the bandwidth limitations the PS3's GPU is not as powerful as the Xbox 360's GPU.

Below are the specs from Sony's press release regarding the PS3's GPU.

RSX GPU

550 MHz

Independent vertex/pixel shaders

51 billion dot products per second (total system performance)

300M transistors

136 "shader operations" per clock
The interesting ALU performance numbers are 51 billion dot products per second (total system performance), 300M transistors, and more than twice as powerful as the 6800 Ultra.

The 51 billions dot products per cycle were listed on a summary slide of total graphics system performance and are assumed to include the Cell processor. Sony's calculations seem to assume that the Cell can do a dot product per cycle per DSP, despite not having a dot product instruction.

However, using Sony's claim, 7 dot products per cycle * 3.2 GHz = 22.4 billion dot products per second for the CPU. That leaves 51 - 22.4 = 28.6 billion dot products per second that are left over for the GPU. That leaves 28.6 billion dot products per second / 550 MHz = 52 GPU ALU ops per clock.

It is important to note that if the RSX ALUs are similar to the GeForce 6800 ALUs then they work on vector4s, while the Xbox 360 GPU ALUs work on vector5s. The total programmable GPU floating point performance for the PS3 would be 52 ALU ops * 4 floats per op *2 (madd) * 550 MHz = 228.8 GFLOPS which is less than the Xbox 360's 48 ALU ops * 5 floats per op * 2 (madd) * 500 MHz= 240 GFLOPS.

With the number of transistors being slightly larger on the Xbox 360 GPU (330M) it's not surprising that the total programmable GFLOPs number is very close.

The PS3 does have the additional 7 DSPs on the Cell to add more floating point ops for graphics rendering, but the Xbox 360's three general purpose cores with custom D3D and dot product instructions are more customized for true graphics related calculations.

The 6800 Ultra has 16 pixel pipes, 6 vertex pipes, and runs at 400 MHz. Given the RSX's 2x better than a 6800 Ultra number and the higher frequency of the RSX, one can roughly estimate that it will have 24 pixel shading pipes and 4 vertex shading pipes (fewer vertex shading pipes since the Cell DSPs will do some vertex shading). If the PS3 GPU keeps the 6800 pixel shader pipe co-issue architecture which is hinted at in Sony's press release, this again gives it 24 pixel pipes* 2 issued per pipe + 4 vertex pipes = 52 dot products per clock in the GPU.

If the RSX follows the 6800 Ultra route, it will have 24 texture samplers, but when in use they take up an ALU slot, making the PS3 GPU in practice even less impressive. Even if it does manage to decouple texture fetching from ALU co-issue, it won't have enough bandwidth to fetch the textures anyways.

For shader operations per clock, Sony is most likely counting each pixel pipe as four ALU operations (co-issued vector+scalar) and a texture operation per pixel pipe and 4 scalar operations for each vector pipe, for a total of 24 * (4 + 1) + (4*4) = 136 operations per cycle or 136 * 550 = 74.8 GOps per second.

Given the Xbox 360 GPU's multithreading and balanced design, you really can't compare the two systems in terms of shading operations per clock. However, the Xbox 360's GPU can do 48 ALU operations (each can do a vector4 and scalar op per clock), 16 texture fetches, 32 control flow operations, and 16 programmable vertex fetch operations with tessellation per clock for a total of 48*2 + 16 + 32 + 16 = 160 operations per cycle or 160 * 500 = 80 GOps per second.

Overall, the automatic shader load balancing, memory export features, programmable vertex fetching, programmable triangle tesselator, full rate texture fetching in the vertex shader, and other "well beyond shader model 3.0" features of the Xbox 360 GPU should also contribute to overall rendering performance.

Bandwidth

The PS3 has 22.4 GB/s of GDDR3 bandwidth and 25.6 GB/s of RDRAM bandwidth for a total system bandwidth of 48 GB/s.

The Xbox 360 has 22.4 GB/s of GDDR3 bandwidth and a 256 GB/s of EDRAM bandwidth for a total of 278.4 GB/s total system bandwidth.

Why does the Xbox 360 have such an extreme amount of bandwidth? Even the simplest calculations show that a large amount of bandwidth is consumed by the frame buffer. For example, with simple color rendering and Z testing at 550 MHz the frame buffer alone requires 52.8 GB/s at 8 pixels per clock. The PS3's memory bandwidth is insufficient to maintain its GPU's peak rendering speed, even without texture and vertex fetches.

The PS3 uses Z and color compression to try to compensate for the lack of memory bandwidth. The problem with Z and color compression is that the compression breaks down quickly when rendering complex next-generation 3D scenes.

HDR, alpha-blending, and anti-aliasing require even more memory bandwidth. This is why Xbox 360 has 256 GB/s bandwidth reserved just for the frame buffer. This allows the Xbox 360 GPU to do Z testing, HDR, and alpha blended color rendering with 4X MSAA at full rate and still have the entire main bus bandwidth of 22.4 GB/s left over for textures and vertices.

CONCLUSION
When you break down the numbers, Xbox 360 has provably more performance than PS3. Keep in mind that Sony has a track record of over promising and under delivering on technical performance. The truth is that both systems pack a lot of power for high definition games and entertainment.

However, hardware performance, while important, is only a third of the puzzle. Xbox 360 is a fusion of hardware, software and services. Without the software and services to power it, even the most powerful hardware becomes inconsequential. Xbox 360 games—by leveraging cutting-edge hardware, software, and services—will outperform the PlayStation 3.



What can you really take from sheer numbers?

Hands down... the 360 is the more powerfull console.

But just because one is more powerfull than the others, it's all comes dow to the developers.... who has the better game support. Sony doens't have it all this time. Microsoft was able to get some of Japan's biggest and best developers on board for the Xbox 360.

Suck on that, Sony fan boys.

Edited by Loiselle, 26 November 2005 - 02:42 PM.


#35 J-Swift

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 03:10 PM

QUOTE (Mattias19 @ November 25, 2005 - 11:09PM)
Was this an XBOX 360 thread or am I mistaken?

laugh.gif I guess it's real hard to mention one of the systems without mentioning and comparing it with the other. I've noticed there's a real strong rivalry here between the Sony supporters and the Microsoft supporters.

I know Microsoft has been panned for releasing the Xbox 360 as early as they did, instead of waiting and developing an even better system, especially when there was still interest in the original Xbox. So I'm worried it might be a bit of a rush job. I think I'll probably wait to see what the PS3 is like before I commit to either one.

#36 dallas27

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Posted 26 November 2005 - 07:43 PM

6800 Ultra? Why in the hell would they put that in there when you get a lot better performance out of a 7800 GT which also costs significantly less.

Surely they have to know that.


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#37 Rice

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 03:39 PM

A nice head-to-head.

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#38 Matt

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 07:22 PM

FYI -- still don't have mine. Obviously, the manager telling me that there would be a delivery ready on Monday of this week (after mistakenly calling me Wednesday to tell me my 360 was ready for pickup) was blowing smoke (or really didn't know for sure, which I believe)...

After some checking around it *appears* that the 2nd shipment will start hitting shelves tomorrow (Friday).

I'm certain I'll be one of the first ones called since I looked that their reservation list when I was there the day after launch and all of the names above me were highlighted except one. (I think I'm #12 on the reservation list, and 10 of the names above were highlighted as completed.)

That was a STACK of pre-orders, too. Glad I put mine in back in early June. I'm annoyed enough as it is having mine already paid off and copies of CoD2, PDZ and PG3 sitting in my entertainment center with nothing to play it on....

#39 dallas27

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Posted 01 December 2005 - 07:27 PM

Mmmmmmmmm PG3, those cars sure are gonna look purdy...


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#40 Loiselle

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Posted 02 December 2005 - 07:45 PM

Until Sony shows me ACTUAL IN GAME FOOTAGE, not pre-rendered, CGI video's, I will not be impressed by Sony's numbers.

The Xbox 360 is hands down, the more powerful console.... read my previous post.... but power doesn't matter.....

It will be all about the games, as it has always been.




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