Tigers offseason thread

[Red Kingdom 4]

for 5.5 per, jones isn't bad. not great, but not atrocious. good signing.

if the rogers deal is on, i'm upset ("As of Wednesday, the Tigers' interest in Rogers had cooled."--from freep today). he's one of my least favorite players. aside from attitude, here's why we should not have given/give rogers a TWO YEAR DEAL worth 8 million per:

he's 41. unless you're randy johnson, you do not get a two year deal as a 41-year old starter. plain should not happen.

in two of the last three seasons, his era has been 4.57 or above.

how about how rogers was down the stretch: 5.25 era in august, 4.74 era with 50 hits and 12 walks in 38 innings in september.

for the year, he has a 1.32 whip. bonderman, robertson, and maroth are all within .05 of that.

2 years, 16 million dollars.

i hate dave dombrowski. there is absolutely zero excuse for him having a job.

keeping johnson on a 1-year abritrated deal would have cost have as much per year, would not come back to kill us in 2007, and wouldn't have been terribly worse (rogers is better, than jj, no question) all things considered (2-years, cash, age).

So what if he's 41. He could still have alot left in him. Randy Johnson didn't do himself any favors last season. He was pretty bad. What about Roger Clemens? He's what, 43? He had the lowest ERA in baseball last season. Jamie Moyers of Seattle is still going strong at 43. Rogers was 14-8 with a 3.47 ERA for the season. What current Tiger pitcher had a better one? Probably none of them. He could be what the Tigers need for a couple of seasons. A veteran starter who could possibly settle down the young pitchers and give the Tigers a little stability till guys like Verlander are ready.

[3Hasek9 0]

So what if he's 41. He could still have alot left in him. Randy Johnson didn't do himself any favors last season. He was pretty bad. What about Roger Clemens? He's what, 43? He had the lowest ERA in baseball last season. Jamie Moyers of Seattle is still going strong at 43. Rogers was 14-8 with a 3.47 ERA for the season. What current Tiger pitcher had a better one? Probably none of them. He could be what the Tigers need for a couple of seasons. A veteran starter who could possibly settle down the young pitchers and give the Tigers a little stability till guys like Verlander are ready.

the only examples you give are randy johnson, roger clemens, and jamie moyer.

the randy johnson example, as per your implication, contributes nothing twoards the argument in support of rogers.

you cannot compare roger clemens with anyone. he transcends the plane of comparison. the most dominant pitcher of the last 25 years. 300+ wins, 4500+ strikeouts. in a 22-year career, clemens has only had an ERA above 4.5 for one season. kenny rogers has had an ERA above 4.5 in two of the last three seasons. kenny rogers has never finished a season with an ERA below three. clemens has done that in half of his seasons. clemens career ERA is over a run better than rogers. clemens has SEVEN cy youngs. rogers has none. i do not believe you are trying to say rogers is anywhere near as good as clemens. my point is simply that clemens exists on a plane so far beyond rogers or anyone else, that comparison is impossible.

your moyer example is good. unfortuneately, it too has significant problems. namely, moyer, in the last 5 seasons, has had an ERA below what rogers just had three times. in the last three seasons, rogers ERA has been below 4 twice, above 4.5 twice, and above SIX an additional time.

the moyer example may actually hurt you. since turning 41, which is the youngest rogers will be in a tigers uniform, moyer's cumulative era has been 4.75. none of the tigers four main starters had an ERA that bad last season.

the moyer example shows why signing a 40+ year old to a multiyear contract worth a good lot of cash is a bad idea.

the same stats i cited before are reason to be weary of rogers: awful whip, terribel down the strectch, weak in two of the last 3 years.

a multi-year contract for rogers is dumb. spending any more than 6 million per is dumb.

dave dombrowski is dumb.

[3Hasek9 0]

Looks like the rotation as of now shakes out like this:

1. Bonderman

2. Maroth

3. Rogers

4. Robertson

5. Whoever distinguishes themself in spring training.

The order is pretty likely to change too. Ledezma, Verlander, Zumaya, Grilli, and Colon (not Bartolo...we wish) will get their shot at that fifth spot. All but Verlander are bullpen candidates if they lose out...Verlander will simply pitch in Toledo.

Jones will be the anointed closer. Rodney and German will be better off without the pressure of the ninth inning. Walker will continue to be steady, as will Spurling, so there isn't a lot of room in the 'pen for the losers of the rotation competition.

maroth is not our number 2. robertson or rogers would be.

i think you are right that jones will be anointed closer. if rodney proves himself, i think he will get a chance to take that role.

german wasn't used as a closer (3 save opps all year).

i think you give too much credit to the makeup of the pen. i don't think anyone but jones has a guaranteed job.

spurling, german, walker, and rodney were major disappointments at one point or another. rodney might have a guaranteed spot, but i wouldn't be surprised to see him left off the roster if he has a truly awful spring.

walker might be set simply because he's a lefty.

i would not be surprised to see zumaya, grilli, or colon push out german and/or spurling in the pen.

i doubt ledezma will be playing in the mlb: he was terrible in toledo.

[timothy1997 0]

Ugh. This Kenny Rogers deal WILL bite the Tigers in the ass. The second year should have been a team option. He's 41 for crying out loud, and now they're shelling out $8 million a year? Let's hope this one falls apart.

EDIT: prelude to a trade? He's a similar pitcher to Maroth and Robertson: finesse lefty. Having a lot of lefties plays to Comerica Park's strengths because it causes the opposition to load the lineup with right-handers, so I figure that Rogers is either supposed to be a stopgap until Verlander and/or Zumaya is ready (as suggested by MLB.com) or an attempt to load the rotation with southpaws.

the tigers are doing what they should be doing. just opening up the pocketbook a ton and just sign anyone. show other free agents that all star players will come to detroit.

Is Kenny Rogers overpaid?? WITHOUT A DOUBT!!

Is Kenny Rogers the answer to the pitching woes?? NO WAY!!

Is it a start? YES!!

To quote Kenny Rogers: "You've got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them..." The tigers have become the gamblers.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Ugh.  This Kenny Rogers deal WILL bite the Tigers in the ass.  The second year should have been a team option.  He's 41 for crying out loud, and now they're shelling out $8 million a year?  Let's hope this one falls apart.

EDIT: prelude to a trade?  He's a similar pitcher to Maroth and Robertson: finesse lefty.  Having a lot of lefties plays to Comerica Park's strengths because it causes the opposition to load the lineup with right-handers, so I figure that Rogers is either supposed to be a stopgap until Verlander and/or Zumaya is ready (as suggested by MLB.com) or an attempt to load the rotation with southpaws.

the tigers are doing what they should be doing. just opening up the pocketbook a ton and just sign anyone. show other free agents that all star players will come to detroit.

Is Kenny Rogers overpaid?? WITHOUT A DOUBT!!

Is Kenny Rogers the answer to the pitching woes?? NO WAY!!

Is it a start? YES!!

To quote Kenny Rogers: "You've got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them..." The tigers have become the gamblers.

If Pudge and Maggs couldn't convince other star players to come to Detroit, nobody will. Pudge himself was swayed thanks to the Fernando Vina and Rondell White signings.

So far gambling on free agents has been a bit of an anchor on the Tigers. Good or bad, we're stuck with Maggs for quite some time. That's not how you build a team. This is how. Develop enough prospects that some will help you out on the big club and some will become trade bait for those established players you can't get otherwise. Free agency is for filling the gaps, not trying to catch up with the rest of the league. "Open up the pocketbook a ton and just sign anyone" is a recipe for anonymous mediocrity, at best.

[3Hasek9 0]

If Pudge and Maggs couldn't convince other star players to come to Detroit, nobody will. Pudge himself was swayed thanks to the Fernando Vina and Rondell White signings.

So far gambling on free agents has been a bit of an anchor on the Tigers. Good or bad, we're stuck with Maggs for quite some time. That's not how you build a team. This is how. Develop enough prospects that some will help you out on the big club and some will become trade bait for those established players you can't get otherwise. Free agency is for filling the gaps, not trying to catch up with the rest of the league. "Open up the pocketbook a ton and just sign anyone" is a recipe for anonymous mediocrity, at best.

great points. the teams that succeed, with the exception of those that have 100million+ payrolls, succeed due to smart, bold trades and prospects.

chicago white sox did not sign all sorts of free agents to build their champion. they acquired key components (garland, buehrle, podsednik, konerko) through other means and filled in the gaps with bigger name free agent signings.

same with the twins. and the indians. the phillies almost grabbed a wild card spot, and they relied heavily on guys like abreu, burrell, utley, howard, meyers, and rollins, all of whom have spent most if not all of their careers in philadelphia.

look at how atlanta wins the division every year.

oakland stays very competitive, and that's a team built largely through the draft and trades.

attempting to sign every free agent out there is not the way to build a club.

[3Hasek9 0]

Is Kenny Rogers overpaid?? WITHOUT A DOUBT!!

Is Kenny Rogers the answer to the pitching woes?? NO WAY!!

Is it a start? YES!!

To quote Kenny Rogers: "You've got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them..." The tigers have become the gamblers.

kenny rogers is not a start. he's 16 million dollars of wasted salary for the next two years.

the tigers are awful gamblers. sign anyone willing to come here? what, percival, you have no durability and are declining at an alarming rate? signed. magglio, you are coming off of a major injury and no one else is interested in you, and you want an exorbitant contract? signed. pudge, no one's interested in you, and you are an old catcher looking for a long term contract? signed.

look at the best players on the tigers roster (it's unfortunate that these are our best): guillen, polanco, shelton, bonderman (almost an all-star before tanking), robertson (best ERA on our team).

how many were acquired through free agency?

making trades like those for polanco and guillen are wise gambles.

[BlakChamber 8]

Tigers reportedly interested in Tejada

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../601060321/1129

While Tejada coming here would give the Tigers one hell of an infield (assuming Guillen wasn't part of the trade), I'd hate to think about what we'd have to give up.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Tigers reportedly interested in Tejada

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../601060321/1129

While Tejada coming here would give the Tigers one hell of an infield (assuming Guillen wasn't part of the trade), I'd hate to think about what we'd have to give up.

Guillen and Zumaya, no doubt. Forget it. Shortstop is not a weakness, it's a strength. The Tigers get more bang for the buck with Guillen. Tejada's unhappy losing with the Orioles, partly because they have to compete with the Red Sox and Yankees and the insane Blue Jays - you think he'd be happy competing with the World Series champs and everyone's darlings the Indians and Twins?

[BlakChamber 8]

That was my first thought, if he's unhappy with the way the O's are going, why on earth would he want to the Tigers?

[betterREDthandead 58]

Tigers sign Mantei to minor-league contract

I can see him making the big club out of spring training. A very solid addition to the bullpen if he does. Good signing here

[ripismoney 0]

The Tigers just love taking risks on older players that other teams have given up hope on. Hopefully this year we can stay healthy, and then I guarantee we will have a better record than the 2004 club. We need another middle relief guy, and perhaps another starter. I think the bats are fine, we just need some consistent pitching.

[betterREDthandead 58]

The Tigers just love taking risks on older players that other teams have given up hope on. Hopefully this year we can stay healthy, and then I guarantee we will have a better record than the 2004 club. We need another middle relief guy, and perhaps another starter. I think the bats are fine, we just need some consistent pitching.

I think the pitching is less of a worry than the bats. The offense has trouble staying healthy (Mags, Guillen, Pudge) and is at risk of being inconsistent. If healthy and playing to full potential, that lineup can bash with anyone in the division. If Matt Mantei proves healthy, there's your middle reliever. Love that signing. The bullpen is solid - Todd Jones can surely still close, Jamie Walker is still around, Mantei if healthy is a great pickup, Spurling is solid, and between German and Rodney, one of them should be able to learn consistency. We know about what we'll get out of the rotation - it will not dominate but it should keep us around as long as they get run support.

[3Hasek9 0]

I think the pitching is less of a worry than the bats. The offense has trouble staying healthy (Mags, Guillen, Pudge) and is at risk of being inconsistent. If healthy and playing to full potential, that lineup can bash with anyone in the division. If Matt Mantei proves healthy, there's your middle reliever. Love that signing. The bullpen is solid - Todd Jones can surely still close, Jamie Walker is still around, Mantei if healthy is a great pickup, Spurling is solid, and between German and Rodney, one of them should be able to learn consistency. We know about what we'll get out of the rotation - it will not dominate but it should keep us around as long as they get run support.

i strongly disagree about pitching being more of a problem than bats. our team was 17th in runs scored--hardly remarkable but certainly not terrible. our batting average and slugging percentage (as well as ba with risp) were top ten in baseball. this is all with an offense featuring first and second basemen who joined the tigers well into the season, and a rf and ss who played significantly less than would be expected for future seasons. our offense has two significant weaknesses, neither which i would qualify as a problem with the bat (though one would be justified in doing as such): lack of speed (22nd in steals with mediocre--13ish--completion rate) and inability to walk (dead last in the majors in walks, dragging our obp to 27th in the league). our speed is not improved at all, and i guess all we can is hope that people start walking. with a lineup that, though perhaps not healthy, will be healthier than that of last season, our offense should improve from it's respectably mediocre run scoring rank of last season.

our relivers era was 11th, but we were 22nd in save percentage. meaning: middle relief and setup (to a degree) were solid, but our closers' position was bad--really bad. don't expect todd jones to be a huge improvement. he did amazing last season, but in 2004, he saved 2 games and blew 6 (4.15 era) and in 2003 he blew 5 saves and converted none (7.08 ERA!!). 2002: 4.7 era with 1 save and 2 blown. 2001: 12 saves, 8 blown, 4.24 era. he amassed a good lot of holds, but the blown saves-to-saves ratio and the ERA's are definitely cause for concern. i'm not sold on 9th-inning improvement.

our starter ERA was 24th. yep--pitching was out problem. rogers is also coming off of a great year, but his two previous seasons involved ERA's of 4.76 and 4.57. bonderman and robertson have been steadily improving, thankfully. unfortunately, maroth did worse last year and our 5th spot will be occupied with an unproven pitcher.

in a rapidly improving division, the tigers chances for success remarkably get worse.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Wednesday will be a great day! The four most beautiful words in the English language: "Pitchers and catchers report." Almost time for a brand new baseball season!

[BlakChamber 8]

Pitchers and catchers report today!!

I love spring training, the one time out of the year the Tigers still have a shot

When do the rest of the players report?

[betterREDthandead 58]

When do the rest of the players report?

Today!

[rage 24]

Spring Training?? YAY!!

I think Chris Shelton and Curtis Granderson are going to have a good year.

Hated to see Tram go, but can't wait to see what we look like this year.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Spring Training?? YAY!!

I think Chris Shelton and Curtis Granderson are going to have a good year.

Hated to see Tram go, but can't wait to see what we look like this year.

YAY is right! Can't wait to see Shelton with a starting job all his own.

[rage 24]

Spring Training?? YAY!!

I think Chris Shelton and Curtis Granderson are going to have a good year.

Hated to see Tram go, but can't wait to see what we look like this year.

YAY is right! Can't wait to see Shelton with a starting job all his own.

Right on. Chris Shelton is going to be something special.

I am really high on Granderson too. I just think he has some great potential.

[rage 24]

So did everyone hear that Troy Percival may be done for good now??

That really is a bummer, he was good when he was healty.

[BlakChamber 8]

Is his contract still on the books? I know MLB contracts are guaranteed, you get paid if you're hurt, but I don't know if it covers retirement.