2006 World Series: Tigers & Cardinals

[timothy1997 0]

My favorite part of that Uni Watch article...the pic at the end.

ESPN

very nice.

I have to agree with vladdy16's comments on this. Tony LaRussa had his chance to make a case in the 1st inning. he chose not to and thats it. Cards fans should be upset at LaRussa, NOT Kenny Rogers or the Tigers....if they felt that the Tigers were trying to pull a fast one on their team.

[Rivalred 630]

Did anyone watch Fox 2 News last night and see the pictures of Roger's hand in the Oakland/New York games? The pictures showed a substance of his hand there too.

I am a Detroit fan, but I do not want to win by cheating if that is the case and really after this, the playoff run is not as sweet as I feel we if you need to cheat you do not deserve it.

I know this is a hockey board and someone might say something about illegal pad size/jersery/curve and it is the same scenario.

I feel Detroit, Cardinals, and the Umps are to blame. Yes, he did clean off his hand and throw another 7 innings without a run, but still have to think of the past games he pitched against New York and Oakland.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Sorry captain, but I've got to disagree with you. I'm not a huge baseball fan, but I do cheer for the Brewers. That being said, I am cheering for the Tigers to win the Series because I can't stand the Cardinals.

However, you can't honestly tell me that if the situation was reversed, and it was a Cardinals pitcher that greased his thumb, that you would have responded with the above post.

My guess here, is that all the Tiger fans would be calling for his head.

...........especially if the Cards had gone up 2 games.

I know it's bad timing for me to come out and say I don't mind greasing, but honestly, I don't. I wouldn't be happy about losing, if the Cardinals were found to be doctoring the ball, but I've always, always thought those little advantages to get ahead are all part of the game, and in fact, add to the color of the game. Yes, I can honestly tell you I'd have responded with the above post. "That's baseball," is what it comes down to. Gaylord Perry's in the Hall of Fame despite writing an autobiography in the middle of his career called "Me and the Spitter." Burleigh Grimes was basically allowed to stare at the ump, hock an enormous loogie on the ball, and throw it for a strike and it would all be OK because he was grandfathered in. He's a Hall of Famer too. Norm Cash won a batting title using a corked bat all season long. Jim Bunning was said to sharpen his belt buckle. I think Yogi Berra was the catcher I mentioned in the previous post, who sharpened his straps. This stuff goes on all the damn time, more than we usually think about.

Hell, check out the Uni Watch column. It hypothesizes that Kenny uses a different cap than everyone else because it's easier to hide grease and tar. Note the fact that he is constantly going to his hat with his hand without actually adjusting the hat. (I always figured "nervous habit" but you never know, I guess.) In fact, I watched parts of Game 2 again on my Tivo (I my Tivo) and he's got a black smudge on the tip of his thumb, too. (Though, his changeup is what's been working so damn well for him, and he doesn't use his thumb to grip the change.) So maybe Uni Watch is right. But guess what: Jeff Weaver was making the exact same motions to his cap the way Rogers was. It was uncanny, the similarities. Ten to one Kenny was using pine tar, and ten to one the reason La Russa didn't bother making a stink is that he knew Weaver was too. And none of it bothers me. The only thing that bothers me is the writers who all of a sudden take the holier-than-thou stance about how the stain on his hand represents a stain on the game. Please.

Did anyone watch Fox 2 News last night and see the pictures of Roger's hand in the Oakland/New York games? The pictures showed a substance of his hand there too.

I am a Detroit fan, but I do not want to win by cheating if that is the case and really after this, the playoff run is not as sweet as I feel we if you need to cheat you do not deserve it.

I know this is a hockey board and someone might say something about illegal pad size/jersery/curve and it is the same scenario.

I feel Detroit, Cardinals, and the Umps are to blame. Yes, he did clean off his hand and throw another 7 innings without a run, but still have to think of the past games he pitched against New York and Oakland.

To me it takes absolutely nothing away from the wins. Here's the question: if the cold really makes it that much harder to grip the ball, and if Kenny is greasing but Weaver wasn't, wouldn't we've wondered why Weaver was wild?* The Cards pitchers, if they're clean and Kenny isn't, should appear all out of sorts by comparison. But Weaver didn't walk too many batters and pitched a pretty solid game, all things considered. If the cold is such a problem that Kenny needs to grease up, then I promise you, Weaver was doing the same thing.

If we have to bring achievements down a notch because of things like greasing the ball, then damn, you pretty much have to examine every record ever set. Because it's part of the game, like it or not. I've got no pretenses of being on a high horse here.

*9 W's in a row, ain't I cool? That just happened, I didn't do it on purpose at all.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

^ Cool, glad to hear then BRTD.

See, the thing I don't like is the gray area. Sure it may add color to the game, but it almost gets to the point of where do you draw the line? That's what could be up for debate.

Edit: Spelling

Edited October 24, 2006 by Never Forget Mac #25

[betterREDthandead 58]

^ Cool, glad to hear then BRTD.

See, the thing I don't like is the gray area. Sure it may add color to the game, but it almost gets to the point of where do you draw the line? That's what could be up for debate.

Edit: Spelling

You draw the line when guys are clearly and obviously caught in the act. Like when Brian Moehler got caught with sandpaper in his glove, or when Sammy Sosa and Graig Nettles broke their bats and foreign substances spilled out (cork and Superballs, respectively). Suspension time, and progressively harsher punishments for future transgressions, which is the way it is now, and the way it should be.

I also draw the line at steroids, because you can't call a guy out on the field for it. You can always ask to check the bat or glove, you can always point out the camera they've set up for sign-stealing (I actually find that kinda distasteful too though - if you're gonna steal signs, do it without the aid of electronics). But you can't test a guy for steroids right there. Plus, there's no extra skill involved in steroids. Standing on the mound with 45,000 sets of eyes on you and tens of millions more watching on TV, and rubbing the ball in grease you've got on your hands? That takes extra skill to hide, and steel cojones besides. All it takes to 'roid up is a needle and a willing accomplice.

[MSUDoubleJ19 0]

Ok, here's the thing. If you look at it on it's own and only take into consideration whether or not he had pine tar on his hand (he did) then, yes, he was cheating. However, if you look at it in the context of the entire league, where a majority of the players use it, it's not quite that cut and dry. I don't know if this article has been posted yet, but I found it interesting:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writ...gers/index.html

And again, the Cardinals aren't making an issue of it (because their pitchers do it too), it's the flippin' media. If the team that was "cheated" against doens't give a s***, then that's all that matters.

[lordstanleyofpreston 0]

Umps probably knew he was using Pine Tar, even though they didn't say that. It's their discretion to determine whether the Pine Tar is affecting the ball to a degree that the pitcher then possesses an unfair advantage. Obviously in Kenny's case they determined it wasn't. What bothers me isn't that Rogers was using Pine Tar, but that the media and Cards fans are causing any discussion about the Series to devolve into a diatribe about cheating. Get over it.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Ok, here's the thing. If you look at it on it's own and only take into consideration whether or not he had pine tar on his hand (he did) then, yes, he was cheating. However, if you look at it in the context of the entire league, where a majority of the players use it, it's not quite that cut and dry. I don't know if this article has been posted yet, but I found it interesting:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/writ...gers/index.html

And again, the Cardinals aren't making an issue of it (because their pitchers do it too), it's the flippin' media. If the team that was "cheated" against doens't give a s***, then that's all that matters.

That's a terrific article. I wouldn't have guessed sunscreen - I would have thought that makes the grip worse, not better. It's almost ironic in that it implies Kenny doesn't actually use pine tar routinely, if ever until Sunday.

Here's another issue. This is how the rule reads:

8.02

The pitcher shall not --

(a) (1) Bring his pitching hand in contact with his mouth or lips while in the 18 foot circle surrounding the pitching rubber. EXCEPTION: Provided it is agreed to by both managers, the umpire prior to the start of a game played in cold weather, may permit the pitcher to blow on his hand. PENALTY: For violation of this part of this rule the umpires shall immediately call a ball. However, if the pitch is made and a batter reaches first base on a hit, an error, a hit batsman or otherwise, and no other runner is put out before advancing at least one base, the play shall proceed without reference to the violation. Repeated offenders shall be subject to a fine by the league president.

(2) expectorate on the ball, either hand or his glove;

(3) rub the ball on his glove, person or clothing;

(4) apply a foreign substance of any kind to the ball;

(5) deface the ball in any manner; or

(6) deliver a ball defaced in a manner prescribed by Rule 8.02(a)(2) through (5) or what is called the “shine†ball, “spit†ball, “mud†ball or “emery†ball. The pitcher is allowed to rub the ball between his bare hands.

This says nothing about what the pitcher can put on his hands, as long as none gets on the ball. So the sunscreen and shaving cream that the coach referred to in the article, if you read the article the way I do, is perfectly legal. There's nothing in there about applying stuff to your hand to help you grip the ball. As long as pine tar doesn't get on the ball, there's really nothing in the rule book that says it's illegal.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

I love how Chevy the "American Revolution" has a whole commercial in spainish during the game. Those kind of things really piss me off. Anyway it's 2-0, but I tons of game left!

[OsGOD 3]

Well Zoombyya just blew this game. HOrrible error! Well at least they pulled him before he could bury us any more

[timothy1997 0]

this game is a disaster. Tigers have to win game 4 on wednesday or they will be lucky to be back in Detroit for game 6.

[Heaton 1]

Well Zoombyya just blew this game. HOrrible error! Well at least they pulled him before he could bury us any more

Zumaya put us deeper in the whole but our hitters blew the game, doesn't matter if we lose 2 to nothing or 4 to nothing, if we can't get any runs we can't win.

[BlakChamber 8]

What an ugly game. Fair to poor pitching and no hitting.

Tip o the hat to Carpenter. He was damn sharp tonight.

[betterREDthandead 58]

What an ugly game. Fair to poor pitching and no hitting.

Tip o the hat to Carpenter. He was damn sharp tonight.

The most frustrating kind of game is when the opposing pitcher doesn't look all that dominating, but we can't hit him anyway. We've lost two games like that now.

[OsGOD 3]

Zumaya put us deeper in the whole but our hitters blew the game, doesn't matter if we lose 2 to nothing or 4 to nothing, if we can't get any runs we can't win.

Obviously looking back after the final score was posted my post becomes almost null and void as for the exact reason you posted.

However, when I posted it he just made the grave error that, at the time looked to be the final nail. Eventhough the score was 2-0 making it 4-0 on a stupid throwing error was like getting an empty net goal with 2 mins left in the game... i just took any hopes of a comeback and threw it back in our faces.

Edited October 25, 2006 by OsGOD

[timothy1997 0]

Eventhough the score was 2-0 making it 4-0 on a stupid throwing error was like getting an empty net goal with 2 mins left in the game... i just took any hopes of a comeback and threw it back in our faces.

I agree. The Tigers albeit down 2 runs were not out of the game. They were either going to face a worn out Carpenter or the cards bully in the final innings. Zumaya's throw to 3rd was in error in two ways. #1 the throw was bad. #2 the throw should have been made to 2nd in order to start the double play. If you look at the replay, Inge looks surprised that the ball was sent his way. Zumaya has shown us that he is more talented than a typical rookie this year, however, in the World Series...he has shown why he is a rookie.

[BlakChamber 8]

I don't think Carpenter's pitch count got above 90. He wasn't worn out.

I like Zumaya, he's my Tiger. But he's also a 21 year old rookie and they're going to make bone-headed plays sometimes. It's just a shame it happened when it did.

The fact that Granderson, Pudge, and Polanco (of all people) don't have one hit between the three of them is far more concerning to me than Zoom having a brain fart.

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

It's obvious they lost so they can win at home in 6.

They'll get em tonight! GO TIGERS!!!!

[timothy1997 0]

I don't think Carpenter's pitch count got above 90. He wasn't worn out.

I like Zumaya, he's my Tiger. But he's also a 21 year old rookie and they're going to make bone-headed plays sometimes. It's just a shame it happened when it did.

The fact that Granderson, Pudge, and Polanco (of all people) don't have one hit between the three of them is far more concerning to me than Zoom having a brain fart.

I agree. The fact that the tigers bats have been considerably cold is the story of this series. If I am Leyland, I change the lineup order a bit...move casey up to #3 ...maybe lead off with pudge or polanco.....gotta try mixing it up to kick start this offense somehow.

[betterREDthandead 58]

I agree, the offense has picked a bad time to go cold. I think the lineup needs tweaking:

Polanco

Maggs

Guillen

Monroe

Casey

Pudge

Inge

Granderson

Pitcher

That's what I'd try for this game. Granderson has been swinging the bat horrible this series, especially with runners on.

[timothy1997 0]

I agree, the offense has picked a bad time to go cold. I think the lineup needs tweaking:

Polanco

Maggs

Guillen

Monroe

Casey

Pudge

Inge

Granderson

Pitcher

That's what I'd try for this game. Granderson has been swinging the bat horrible this series, especially with runners on.

Little bit too much on the changes.

I like Maggs in the 4 slot, but I would change the lineup to this.

Polanco

Monroe

Casey

Maggs

Guillen

Pudge

Inge

Granderson

Pitcher

[BlakChamber 8]

Here's tonight's lineup

1. Granderson, CF

2. Monroe, LF

3. Guillen, SS

4. Ordonez, RF

5. Casey, 1B

6. Rodriguez, C

7. Polanco, 2B

8. Inge, 3B

9. Bonderman, P

[lordstanleyofpreston 0]

Thought Casey would be in the 3rd slot considering they way he hit last night. In any case their bats better heat up quickly if they want to come back to Detroit for game 6.

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

Unfortunately, last nights Tigers looked like the team that played KC several weeks ago, and not the team that played the Yanks and As.

I thought Nate was OK - 2 runs in a WS game isn't that bad - we lost because our run total was a big fat 0.

Go Bonderman tonight - if tonight happens. Please get some hits for god's sake.

[OsGOD 3]

What happens with the schedule if tonight is a washout? actually how long till they cancel the entire game tonight?