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#21 swedishconnection

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 02:32 PM

QUOTE(wingsrule_s_ @ February 6, 2007 - 02:05PM) View Post

gary roberts wouldnt cost us a prospect , hes the one guy i can see us getting for maybe a 2nd round pick , which is why i think we should go for him, i dont wanna trade hudler either

only guys i can tolerate getting rid of is jason williams and lilja , but lilja wont go anywhere incase we suffer an injury from the back end .......derek meech and evan mcgrath is another i wouldnt mind getting rid of , plus the obvious picks

in my dreams the only moves we'd make would be ...

gary roberts for a 2008 2nd round pick
peter forsberg for jason williams , evan mcgrath and a 2007 1st round pick

then we can always go for a shane doan in the off season



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#22 WhiteLightning91

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 02:55 PM

QUOTE(rick zombo @ February 6, 2007 - 10:44AM) View Post

I would only trade Hudler if the deal were too good to refuse.

I would not trade Hudler to rent a guy like Roberts for what might amount to one, maybe two, playoff seires.

But if it was for someone like Norstrom who had another full year left on his contract, or as part of a package deal for a guy like Jokinen who is signed relatively cheap for three more seasons, then I would make the deal.

I'd just as soon hang on to the kid though and go looking for a few big wingers this summer to play with some of these smaller guys.

I'd rather trade Schneider.

Why on earth would we trade for ANOTHER center? This is the same reason I do not see us getting Forsberg.


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#23 norrisnick

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 03:11 PM

QUOTE(RyanBarnes! @ February 6, 2007 - 11:58AM) View Post

Because if Hudler was even close to the player some people make him out to be, Babcock wouldn't be so hesitant to play him more. Everybody knows Detroit could use a top six sniper, but more icetime doesn't necessarily result in more goals. Hudler's line benefits greatly from not playing top defensive units. That would change if Hudler got top 6 minutes. Then there's also the fact that with more icetime comes more responsibility. Hudler isn't exactly known for his defensive game.


Sure he isn't known for his defensive game, but can you point to one glaring mistake he's made this season? A blown coverage? A bad turnover that led to a goal or even a prime scoring chance?

He's one of our best goal scorers per minute, and Bruce MacLeod (Macomb Daily reporter that posts at RWC) ran the numbers and he's also among the best on the team for having the fewest goals scored against us while he's on the ice.

Jiri has played solid, sound minutes all season long. That's more than you can say about some ahead of him on the ice time chart.

QUOTE(WhiteLightning91 @ February 6, 2007 - 01:55PM) View Post

Why on earth would we trade for ANOTHER center? This is the same reason I do not see us getting Forsberg.

Because one or even both of Datsyuk and Lang won't be around after this season.

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#24 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 03:36 PM

QUOTE(norrisnick @ February 6, 2007 - 03:11PM) View Post

Sure he isn't known for his defensive game, but can you point to one glaring mistake he's made this season? A blown coverage? A bad turnover that led to a goal or even a prime scoring chance?

He's one of our best goal scorers per minute, and Bruce MacLeod (Macomb Daily reporter that posts at RWC) ran the numbers and he's also among the best on the team for having the fewest goals scored against us while he's on the ice.

Jiri has played solid, sound minutes all season long. That's more than you can say about some ahead of him on the ice time chart.
Limiting ones mistakes is smart, and being on the ice for few goals scored against is good, but neither is the same thing as being great defensively. Hudler has done well with the limited icetime he's seen, but that doesn't make him elite.

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#25 rick zombo

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 03:44 PM

QUOTE(norrisnick @ February 6, 2007 - 04:11PM) View Post

Because one or even both of Datsyuk and Lang won't be around after this season.

And because Jokinen's contract is extremely fair. But I con't see him leaving Florida. It was just an example.
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#26 Bluedevils_13

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 03:47 PM

Anyone else see what he said in the Free Press, it seems the kid likes it here....

"I know about (the rumors), but it doesn't mean anything to me right now. I want to play here. That's it. I want to play for the Detroit Red Wings. Hockeytown. I love it here", he said.
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#27 Curban915

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 04:05 PM

Just to get off topic i really think Lang has been a bust, and has anyone been watching maltby play of late i think he is hearing the rumors of DET looking for a grinder that can hit and score i think his hits have gone up in the past two games i have really changed my views on him. He made a few big plays last night. I really think lang can be trade baite what do you all think.

#28 Heroes of Hockeytown

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 04:48 PM

QUOTE(Curban915 @ February 6, 2007 - 04:05PM) View Post

I really think lang can be trade baite what do you all think.

Nope. Which is fine with me. Mike's confident he'll get on another roll and so I am. I don't think he'll be around next year (especially if he's looking for a similarly priced contract as was rumored), but I'm happy we've got him on our side for at least one more spring.

As for Rex... demote Williams again, put him on a line with Lang and Cleary. I don't buy the goals/seconds thing for an instant, but he's still a good shooter for us and it could pay off to be playing with those guys.
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#29 YoungGuns1340

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 05:41 PM

QUOTE(Curban915 @ February 6, 2007 - 04:05PM) View Post

Just to get off topic i really think Lang has been a bust, and has anyone been watching maltby play of late i think he is hearing the rumors of DET looking for a grinder that can hit and score i think his hits have gone up in the past two games i have really changed my views on him. He made a few big plays last night. I really think lang can be trade baite what do you all think.


Langs not going to be trade bait. There may be teams that could use him, but few are going to give up something worthwhile enough for Detroit to lose one of their biggest playoff performers.

Lang saves his best hockey for the playoffs. No need to trade him now. Really, I think Detroit should trade the 1st rounder and dish off Willy for a low-key guy like Roberts or Modin. Detroit drafts well late and the 1st rounder will likely be no higher than about 25th.


As for the Hudler discussion, nobody seems to bring up Filppula getting ice time either, and the reason he probably averages more ice time than Hudler is because he takes some shifts on the PK and hes a more responsible player. Theyre both rookies still getting used to the big league. The last thing Babcock wants to do with either is leave them floudering in a top 6 role which can be a huge detriment to their confidence if things dont go well.

Edited by YoungGuns1340, 06 February 2007 - 05:43 PM.

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#30 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 06 February 2007 - 09:10 PM

QUOTE(The Enforcer @ February 6, 2007 - 09:46AM) View Post

Trade him. He is almost usless along the boards.

Riiiiiiiiiiiight, because board play is the only thing that defines a hockey player...................

Anyways, I'm trying to see both sides here...I'm not going to get ahead of myself saying Hudler is one of the next best star talents who will consistently pop up 30 goals a year in a few seasons.

I'd like to see him get a little more time and I think he's deserved some more time to an extent, 10-12 minutes a game, but I'm going to trust Babcock since he's the coach and I'm not, not putting him on a 1st/2nd line consistently, etc.

#31 FunkyBlueFish203

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 12:36 AM

QUOTE(RyanBarnes! @ February 6, 2007 - 03:36PM) View Post

Limiting ones mistakes is smart, and being on the ice for few goals scored against is good, but neither is the same thing as being great defensively. Hudler has done well with the limited icetime he's seen, but that doesn't make him elite.

So you're saying unless he becomes a Selke trophy candidate he is worthless?

Who called the kid elite? Point it out.

No one did.

Fact: Hudler has scored goals despite the nonsense ice time he has received. The point about him being a rookie and all that is good, but here's what's happening on the team right now: Z and Pavel are constantly double shifted because they seem to be the only ones producing consistent offense. We have guys who can score but they are buried on the 4th line playing 5 minutes a night. These kids are not ready for 20 minutes but there's no reason they can't play 12 minutes a night. Of course the team is winning so who's going to ***** about it?

The Wings need goal scorers. Hudler has all the instincts and potential to be an excellent goal scorer. I like a big guy like Dany Heatley as much as you but that doesn't mean a guy like Daniel Briere is worthless in this league. No, I am not comparing Hudler to Briere, please don't get trigger happy and try to slap sense into me.

With the situation about the off-season being murky, and guys like Lang and Schneider and Datsyuk being potential free agents this summer, why give up home made talent that can come through?

"He sits next to Steve in that locker room for a reason -- because we wanted him to internalize some of those things. Steve was able to will this organization to unbelievable years with the three Stanley Cups, and now it's up to someone else. Z has that kind of will and that work ethic and that passion to be the best. It's going to be his time." -- Coach Mike Babcock

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#32 FinRedWing

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 02:16 AM

QUOTE(rick zombo @ February 6, 2007 - 10:44PM) View Post

And because Jokinen's contract is extremely fair. But I con't see him leaving Florida. It was just an example.


I believe so too. But he's getting frustrated,613 NHL-games played & he's never been in the playoffs.

QUOTE(FunkyBlueFish203 @ February 7, 2007 - 07:36AM) View Post

With the situation about the off-season being murky, and guys like Lang and Schneider and Datsyuk being potential free agents this summer, why give up home made talent that can come through?


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#33 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 07:41 AM

QUOTE(FunkyBlueFish203 @ February 7, 2007 - 12:36AM) View Post

So you're saying unless he becomes a Selke trophy candidate he is worthless?

Nope, not saying that. I'm saying that in order to get top minutes you need to be more than a one way player. The arguments posted by NN was supposed to make us believe that Hudler is a player with great defensive awareness and ability. He's not. Hudler is doing what he can by limiting his mistakes etc, but with minimal icetime it can not be used as a measuring stick of his defensive ability.

QUOTE

Who called the kid elite? Point it out.

No one did.
From the way people are raving about Hudler being a top scorer measured in seconds, icetime and whatnot, it seems people believe he's a 40-goalscorer being held back by his coach. I'm simply trying to balance the discussion. Top players face top defenders and they are also asked to do more than play offense. Hudler does neither right now.

QUOTE

Fact: Hudler has scored goals despite the nonsense ice time he has received. The point about him being a rookie and all that is good, but here's what's happening on the team right now: Z and Pavel are constantly double shifted because they seem to be the only ones producing consistent offense. We have guys who can score but they are buried on the 4th line playing 5 minutes a night. These kids are not ready for 20 minutes but there's no reason they can't play 12 minutes a night. Of course the team is winning so who's going to ***** about it?
Like I said before, the Red Wings need for more offense is no secret to Babcock, still he choses to limit Hudler's ice time. I think there's a reason. If you think something else that's up to you.

QUOTE
The Wings need goal scorers. Hudler has all the instincts and potential to be an excellent goal scorer. I like a big guy like Dany Heatley as much as you but that doesn't mean a guy like Daniel Briere is worthless in this league. No, I am not comparing Hudler to Briere, please don't get trigger happy and try to slap sense into me.

With the situation about the off-season being murky, and guys like Lang and Schneider and Datsyuk being potential free agents this summer, why give up home made talent that can come through?
Hudler is nothing exceptional in my opinion. His style of play is similar to what the Red Wings already have (smallish, finesse). If he can be used as trade bait in order to address a greater need for the upcoming post season, then I'm all for it. Why? Because you must give up something in order to get something, and Hudler is expendable. It's my opinion.

"Joey (Kocur) has no fear" -Lyndon Byers
"Empty-net goals are for homos" -Al Iafrate

#34 FunkyBlueFish203

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 09:01 AM

If he is small-ish and fits the mold of what we currently have, we better hang on to him. Why? Because he's cheaper than almost everyone on the team, and some of these guys we currently have are not coming back. The logic is clear to me. Am I missing something here?

"He sits next to Steve in that locker room for a reason -- because we wanted him to internalize some of those things. Steve was able to will this organization to unbelievable years with the three Stanley Cups, and now it's up to someone else. Z has that kind of will and that work ethic and that passion to be the best. It's going to be his time." -- Coach Mike Babcock

DOPASAPA est. 2006, President


#35 GuloGulo

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 09:09 AM

Hudler scores a lot of goals the way we want the ideal acquisition to do. Snipes them home. Around the crease. Yes he is small. Yes he'll not win a lot of man to man wrestles. He's still not a softy. He is not Fluery, but he is not a coward.

Edited by GuloGulo, 07 February 2007 - 09:09 AM.

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#36 Dave85

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 09:28 AM

QUOTE(GuloGulo @ February 7, 2007 - 04:09PM) View Post

Hudler scores a lot of goals the way we want the ideal acquisition to do. Snipes them home. Around the crease. Yes he is small. Yes he'll not win a lot of man to man wrestles. He's still not a softy. He is not Fluery, but he is not a coward.

I agree
For his tremendous offensive instincts and creativity he can be the next Martin St.Louis

#37 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:16 AM

QUOTE(FunkyBlueFish203 @ February 7, 2007 - 09:01AM) View Post

If he is small-ish and fits the mold of what we currently have, we better hang on to him. Why? Because he's cheaper than almost everyone on the team, and some of these guys we currently have are not coming back. The logic is clear to me. Am I missing something here?
He's cheap, I'll give you that. He's not going to replace Schneider or Lang. Maybe Datsyuk if he leaves, but then there's Filppula, Kopecky, Grigorenko and Bootland. Perhaps McGrath and Emmerton later on. I don't see the big deal, but maybe it's because I'm not satisfied with what we currently have. I'd like Detroit to become a bigger, meaner and more physical team. Hence, status qou and Jiri Hudler doesn't interest me that much.

Plus, I also think Detroit has a shot at advancing further in the postseason this year. Giving Hudler up is a small price to pay to land a gritty, physical goalscorer that could help achieving this. Don't worry though, I got your point.

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#38 Heaton

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:18 AM

QUOTE(FunkyBlueFish203 @ February 7, 2007 - 12:36AM) View Post

Z and Pavel are constantly double shifted because they seem to be the only ones producing consistent offense. We have guys who can score but they are buried on the 4th line playing 5 minutes a night. These kids are not ready for 20 minutes but there's no reason they can't play 12 minutes a night. Of course the team is winning so who's going to ***** about it?


There's nothing wrong with Z and Datsyuk getting 20-22 mins a night, I'd hope that they still get it even if we had tons of secondary scoring.

My stance with Hudler is that he seems to be thriving right now with limited minutes, when he's gotten regular shifts and played on the PP regular shifts during the game he hasn't done as much as his "nonsense" 5-9 minutes a game. I think it has more to do with his matchups right now than anything. I don't want to see Hudler traded, he'll be in a bigger role next season.

Edited by Heaton, 07 February 2007 - 10:21 AM.

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#39 RyanBarnes!

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:25 AM

QUOTE(Heaton @ February 7, 2007 - 10:18AM) View Post

There's nothing wrong with Z and Datsyuk getting 20-22 mins a night, I'd hope that they still get it even if we had tons of secondary scoring.

My stance with Hudler is that he seems to be thriving right now with limited minutes, when he's gotten regular shifts and played on the PP regular shifts during the game he hasn't done as much as his "nonsense" 5-9 minutes a game. I think it has more to do with his matchups right now than anything. I don't want to see Hudler traded, he'll be in a bigger role next season.
Exactly!

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#40 eva unit zero

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Posted 07 February 2007 - 10:27 AM

QUOTE(RyanBarnes! @ February 7, 2007 - 07:41AM) View Post

Nope, not saying that. I'm saying that in order to get top minutes you need to be more than a one way player. The arguments posted by NN was supposed to make us believe that Hudler is a player with great defensive awareness and ability. He's not. Hudler is doing what he can by limiting his mistakes etc, but with minimal icetime it can not be used as a measuring stick of his defensive ability.

From the way people are raving about Hudler being a top scorer measured in seconds, icetime and whatnot, it seems people believe he's a 40-goalscorer being held back by his coach. I'm simply trying to balance the discussion. Top players face top defenders and they are also asked to do more than play offense. Hudler does neither right now.

Like I said before, the Red Wings need for more offense is no secret to Babcock, still he choses to limit Hudler's ice time. I think there's a reason. If you think something else that's up to you.

Hudler is nothing exceptional in my opinion. His style of play is similar to what the Red Wings already have (smallish, finesse). If he can be used as trade bait in order to address a greater need for the upcoming post season, then I'm all for it. Why? Because you must give up something in order to get something, and Hudler is expendable. It's my opinion.


Hudler is the only Wing scoring better than .13 goals who doesn't get better than 14 minutes a game; Hudler does it in under 9. If you adjust Hudler's 8:28 to the aforementioned 14 minutes--meaning he is still seeing less ice than anyone else above that mark--he would be at .31 GPG, better than Datsyuk and in fourth place on the team. At that rate, he would have 15 goals in 48 games (compare with Datsyuk's 15 in 51), and if he had played all 54, that would be 17 goals, good for sole possession of third place on the team.

And that doesn't even take into account that Hudler is the most effective PP scorer we have when you consider time--Multiply by 3.5, and you get 7 goals in 4:05, compared with Holmstrom's team-leading 7 in 4:14, with three extra games, or Zetterberg's 6 in 4:05, with six extra games.

Hudler should be getting at the very least top-nine ice time. As it stands, in even strength ice time per game, Hudler is not even top twelve among forwards, and is only top nine among forwards for PP ice.

The lines should be
Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom
Hudler/Lang/Cleary
Franzen/Filppula/Williams
Maltby/Draper/Langfeld

When healthy, lines 3 and 4:
Kopecky/Filppula/Samuelsson
Maltby/Draper/Franzen

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