115 replies to this topic

[FinWing]

Cause it's fun. I'm having fun, anyway. Which is why I'm gonna blast ahead much better than doing the work I'm supposed to be doing.

Anyway, the Draper point just goes to show that at some point, those mythical locker room intangibles take a back seat to production. Obviously in my opinion, that covers just about anyone. Because, you mentioned Crosby, Ovechkin, and Zetterberg in the same sentence. I promise you, 10-15 years from now, nobody will do that. It's like saying Gretzky, Mario, Modano. Modano's a terrific player. He's not even in the conversation when it comes to the all-time greats. Crosby will be.

No kidding, this really is pretty fun. I just think that some of our colleagues are getting tired of this but what the heck, why not go all the way while we're at it.

You know what? I actually agree with you, at least to some extent. I don't think intangibles are more important than production and skills but they are a significant factor nevertheless and shouldn't be overlooked.

I'm grateful to Drapes for all he's done but to tell the truth, I wouldn't mind seeing him gone sometime soon. I don't think he can offer us enough anymore and is not the same Drapes he was during the Cup years.

And surely you think our Z will be better than Modano? Remains to be seen but I have faith.

I wonder what the results would be if you went to a generally hockey forum, like HFBoards and ran a poll asking if people if they would trade Zetterberg for Crosby, how many would say no. I doubt many, no matter what the alleged intangibles are.

I wouldn't read too much into that kind of poll, not many repliers would have any idea of managing a team so they wouldn't know half the things that are involved in a trade.

But that's just my opinion.

Edited by FinWing, 13 February 2007 - 12:28 PM.

[Crymson]

I wonder what the results would be if you went to a generally hockey forum, like HFBoards and ran a poll asking if people if they would trade Zetterberg for Crosby, how many would say no. I doubt many, no matter what the alleged intangibles are.

What would you have said had, in '02, somebody proposed trading Yzerman for Sundin or something of the sort?

You'd have said no--Yzerman is the soul of the franchise. &c. There reaches a point when the fans love the players, not just their scoring--and certainly having a revolving door of a team does not bode well for teamwork or locker room dynamic.

Edited by Crymson, 13 February 2007 - 12:56 PM.

[betterREDthandead]

And surely you think our Z will be better than Modano? Remains to be seen but I have faith.

Well, Modano is pretty much the definition of a franchise player for the Stars. Definitely worth a jersey retirement. He's 36 now.....for Zetterberg to catch up to his point total by that same age, he'll need to average 97 points a season. I think I'd be thrilled if Zetterberg had a similar career path as Modano, and I think he will.

It's just that even though Modano is the Stars' franchise, and has been since their Minnesota days, nobody would put him in a discussion of the very best of the best. He's one or two steps shy of that.

What would you have said had, in '02, somebody proposed trading Yzerman for Sundin or something of the sort?

You'd have said no--Yzerman is the soul of the franchise. &c. There reaches a point when the fans love the players, not just their scoring--and certainly having a revolving door of a team does not bode well for teamwork or locker room dynamic.

Well, if you ask this question in 2015, then we might be able to call Zetterberg the soul of the franchise. Right now, it's an insult to Yzerman to put Zetterberg on the same pedestal. Zetterberg with three years experience is comparable to Yzerman with 18? I agree there reaches a point, but we're not there with Z yet.

[BlakChamber]

What would you have said had, in '02, somebody proposed trading Yzerman for Sundin or something of the sort?

You'd have said no--Yzerman is the soul of the franchise. &c. There reaches a point when the fans love the players, not just their scoring--and certainly having a revolving door of a team does not bode well for teamwork or locker room dynamic.

You can't compare the 2002 Yzerman to the 2007 Zetterberg. The 1987 Yzerman to the 2007 Zetterberg is a much better comparison. You can't compare someone with 19 years of experience to someone with 3.

Edit: I should have read the whole thread before answering. BRTD pretty much said what I meant to say.

[FinWing]

Well, Modano is pretty much the definition of a franchise player for the Stars. Definitely worth a jersey retirement. He's 36 now.....for Zetterberg to catch up to his point total by that same age, he'll need to average 97 points a season. I think I'd be thrilled if Zetterberg had a similar career path as Modano, and I think he will.

It's just that even though Modano is the Stars' franchise, and has been since their Minnesota days, nobody would put him in a discussion of the very best of the best. He's one or two steps shy of that.
Well, if you ask this question in 2015, then we might be able to call Zetterberg the soul of the franchise. Right now, it's an insult to Yzerman to put Zetterberg on the same pedestal. Zetterberg with three years experience is comparable to Yzerman with 18? I agree there reaches a point, but we're not there with Z yet.

You can't compare the point totals of players from different eras. There was a lot more scoring back when Modano was a young player. That's basically like arguing that Crosby will never be in the same class with Mario or Wayne unless he puts up some 200-250 points during his best season. Z can be just as good a player as Modano (and better) without having equally impressive numbers.

I think it's more about where you rank among your current peers (and not just in scoring). That's a more appropriate way to compare players than comparing past and current statistics.

And yeah, Z is definitely no Yzerman and probably never will be. But I wouldn't label Crosby as another Lemieux either, at least yet.

You can't compare the 2002 Yzerman to the 2007 Zetterberg. The 1987 Yzerman to the 2007 Zetterberg is a much better comparison. You can't compare someone with 19 years of experience to someone with 3.

Exactly, that's why I was talking about a young Yzerman and a young Lemieux earlier. They hadn't reached their potential just like Z and Sid and co. haven't yet.

Edited by FinWing, 13 February 2007 - 01:31 PM.

[Lou_Siffer]

Anyone who'd rank Yzerman ahead of Lemieux and Gretzky on the all time list is a blatant homer, plain and simple. And even worse than that is the Zetterberg/Crosby talk! If the Pens were to make a list of players they'd swap for Crosby, Zetterberg's not in the top 5.

[eva unit zero]

Here is the current roster, as ordered by estimated trade value--how much the player would likely bring back if he were traded with no additional players or picks. Highlighted in red are the roster players I would consider trading at this point for whatever reason.

UNTOUCHABLE
Zetterberg
Lidstrom

TRADEABLE WITH RIGHT OFFER:
Kronwall
Datsyuk
Cleary
Hasek
Lang
Filppula
Hudler
Holmstrom
Schneider
Franzen
Osgood
Lebda
Williams
Kopecky
Markov
Samuelsson

BASICALLY UNTRADEABLE--LOW VALUE
Draper
Maltby
Langfeld
Lilja
Chelios
MacDonald

[FinWing]

That list looks alright to me, although I would also consider trading Rex now for a significantly helpful player (basically a top-six winger that is).

[Crymson]

Well, if you ask this question in 2015, then we might be able to call Zetterberg the soul of the franchise. Right now, it's an insult to Yzerman to put Zetterberg on the same pedestal. Zetterberg with three years experience is comparable to Yzerman with 18? I agree there reaches a point, but we're not there with Z yet.

I did not mean to compare Zetterberg to Yzerman. I merely meant to entail that intangibles ARE in play. While Lemieux and Gretzky were certainly better players than Yzerman, Stevie brought more than just skill to Detroit--he brought love.

[eva unit zero]

That list looks alright to me, although I would also consider trading Rex now for a significantly helpful player (basically a top-six winger that is).

Better to keep him and trade Lang or Datsyuk for said winger. Hudler has a future with this team..Lang and Dats could both be elsewhere next year.

[bringback91]

Does "untouchable" entail just from a Wings perspective, or is it that along with another teams willingness to trade for said player?

[Kp-Wings]

Since when was Howard a former first round pick?

Anyways, they better not trade Filppula or Kindl. Those two have a boatload of potential. Hudler has impressed me, but if we are to get anything significant in return, we need to give up at least one good young prospect.

[Adidarw]

My Personal Take:

Untouchables:
Zetterberg
Lidstrom
Kronwall
Filppula
Howard
Holmstrom

Tradeable (aggresive offering):
Lang
Datsyuk
Samuelsson
Williams
Markov

Anyone else is tradeable for the right offer.

[arnoldbuck]

[quote name='FinWing' date='February 13, 2007 - 10:26AM' post='957503']
You can't compare the point totals of players from different eras. There was a lot more scoring back when Modano was a young player. That's basically like arguing that Crosby will never be in the same class with Mario or Wayne unless he puts up some 200-250 points during his best season. Z can be just as good a player as Modano (and better) without having equally impressive numbers.

I think it's more about where you rank among your current peers (and not just in scoring). That's a more appropriate way to compare players than comparing past and current statistics.

I agree that you have to compare players against those they are currently playing ... it is very hard to compare different era's, however, when you say there was more scoring when Modano was young, well, he career had only begun then it was well on it's way to a lower scoring game. He also played his prime through the low-scoring trap era. So I wouldn't use that as an excuse.

Edited by arnoldbuck, 14 February 2007 - 09:51 PM.

[eva unit zero]

Modano twice hit 93 points and even hit 50 goals once.

But his 99-00 season was probably his best--ranked 8th in goals (38) and points (81), the best he ever did in either category as compared to the league.

So yes, his scoring is slightly inflated by his early seasons and his career highs certainly are.

Consider that in the last season before the lockout, Modano scored a paltry 44 points, before scoring 77 in the first season after the lockout. He is on pace for about 55 over a full 82 games this season, easily his worst year not including 03-04.

Zetterberg would have to average about 85 points per 82 games over 937 games to tie Modano--which is actually lower than his post-lockout average.