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To trade, or not to trade...


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#21 Covenant

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 11:14 AM

QUOTE(Crymson @ February 17, 2007 - 03:41AM) View Post

f***, people like this.. man, I just don't get them. They'll spend all sorts of time attempting to contort the facts such that they can conclude everything is hopeless.f****** ridiculous.


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#22 Barnes52

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 11:21 AM

QUOTE(Crymson @ February 17, 2007 - 04:41AM) View Post

What in the hell do you want? Seriously.. what can Holland do? Offer to sell half the team in order to get another winger? Holland needs to work with what he has.

In any event, I don't know how in the f*** you can judge Holland after TWO SEASONS with a cap. Last year, all we got was Cory Cross. Big whoop. We went 17-1-3 after the trade deadline, and that one loss was the last game of the season--Babcock scratched half the team. So, I guess we didn't need anyone, eh?

f***, people like this.. man, I just don't get them. They'll spend all sorts of time attempting to contort the facts such that they can conclude everything is hopeless.f****** ridiculous.


When is the President's Trophy parade? Big deal, this team has had ample opportunities to get more playoff ready, they could've made bigger pushes for guys like Nolan and Guerin in the offseason, but we sign Greg Johnson instead. This team has ONE LINE, Lang is paired with wingers who are essentially fourth liners, and this team has no grit. Funny that the guys that are now commanding a premium as "playoff rentals" the Wings could've signed as ufa's in the off season. We lose leaders like Yzerman, scorers like Shanahan and replace them with Jason Williams and Samuelsson and people wonder why Holland needs to make some moves....

#23 Barrie

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 11:45 AM

QUOTE(Chase @ February 17, 2007 - 10:11AM) View Post

I was gonna quote the same thing Barrie.

Guys, Holland isnt an idiot, give him a break.

IMO I'd rather not trade for any of the guys on the list in that article. Guerin is past his prime and on the downslope, and Nolan is kinda the same deal. Betuzzi... well maybe, but I really dont like the guy. Even though he is what we need.

I'd rather not trade away a great prospect (Flips, Huds, Kindl, Kronwall, etc) or high draft picks (which we desperatly need to keep youth in the system) for a past-his-prime player, who may help us just for this season then be gone the next.

Right.

The Wings are more focused on the big picture. Instead of winning one Cup, I think the organization wants to put another run together and win 2 or 3.

I'm all for making deals at the deadline, but it's not worth it to sell the farm and screw yourself over for the next 5 years.

I'm glad we didn't get Forsberg. If Hasek stays healthy, we're going far.
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#24 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 11:54 AM

Did miss something?

Did they move the trade deadline up to yesterday?

Here's a thought. Next time someone feels the urge to go on a rant about how much Holland sucks and how he's not going to trade for any good player and we're going to lose in the first round of the playoffs, write it down a piece of paper. Make a list.

Then when the trade deadline actually passes, if nothing happens, you can grab your handy little list and ***** to your heart's content.

What the hell do you want Holland to say? "We desperately need to make a move! If we don't get a gritty winger, we're screwed!" It wouldn't exactly help his bargaining position.


#25 Lou_Siffer

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:04 PM

QUOTE(Barnes52 @ February 17, 2007 - 11:21AM) View Post

When is the President's Trophy parade? Big deal, this team has had ample opportunities to get more playoff ready, they could've made bigger pushes for guys like Nolan and Guerin in the offseason, but we sign Greg Johnson instead. This team has ONE LINE, Lang is paired with wingers who are essentially fourth liners, and this team has no grit. Funny that the guys that are now commanding a premium as "playoff rentals" the Wings could've signed as ufa's in the off season. We lose leaders like Yzerman, scorers like Shanahan and replace them with Jason Williams and Samuelsson and people wonder why Holland needs to make some moves....


Exactly. We sat and wait while Kenny "bided his time", as people like to say, and signed none of that playoff grit we were supposed to get in the offseason. The upcoming deadline is now D-day for him, time to show that waitng it out and signing nobody was the right move. Now we're hearing from Holland about how trade prices are too high and whatnot...well buddy then why didnt you f'n SIGN some guys in the offseason then! Did you not expect this?

Aaron Downey tally = 4 Wins (Mclaren, PARROS, *Laperriere*, Wisniewski) - 1 L (**Boll**) - 5 Draws (Walker, Fedoruk, Davison, Shelley, O'Donnell)

(* = beatdown) (** = at the end of a shift)

Preseason prediction - Anaheim over Philadelphia in 6 (ok, well i'll settle for one right...)

#26 Kp-Wings

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:13 PM

I'm about ready to jump on the "Holland Bashing" raft right now. If he really thinks this team is ok the way it is, he is probably one of the top 5 dumbest GM's alive. You know why Lang is playing so bad right now? Look who his wingers are. Williams sucks more than humanly imaginable. He does nothing on the ice except float. And Dan Cleary... He'll never live up to the expectations of being drafted #13 overall way back in 1997. I'm sorry, but he's not a second line player. He's a good defensive forward, and that's fine. But he needs to stop being depended on to score. Holland needs to get up off his fat ass and get at least ONE scoring winger. If he can't do that, then this team is done. Don't start the crap of "Well the Wings went 17-1-3 after they got Cory Cross" either. Pretell what was the Wings record in the playoffs? Oh yeah, a resounding 2-4. So apparently they weren't in shape for the playoffs. And their not now. So if he (Holland) doesn't get ANYTHING at the deadline, then don't expect the Wings to be playing past the middle of April.

#27 betterREDthandead

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:17 PM

Has everyone forgotten what this team looked like going into Traverse City this past summer? For those who have, which appears to be most, I'll sum it up. The Red Wings looked a lot like this:

???

We had absolutely NO IDEA we'd be in this position right now, fighting for a spot at the top of the conference, possibly the league. There wasn't a person on this board, in the organization, or in the media, who expected the Wings to be a serious Cup contender at this point in the season. It wasn't a rebuilding year, more of a re-evaluating year. Take a step back, see what these players were capable of and go from there.

Remember all the saying we'd just be happy if we made the playoffs and that would be nice because of all the turnover and let's not get our expectations too high this year? So much for that, I guess.

That's why Holland didn't bother going after these guys in the offseason. Why mess with something that you already don't have a clue how it'll turn out, and tie up future-wasting money in the process? The answer to Lou's question, Did you not expect this?, is a huge NO!, of course not, not a single one of us expected the Wings to be where they are now. Hindsight is always 20/20.
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#28 sWINGED

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:22 PM

nashville sold the farm for forsberg because they are a terminally-ill patient that can't worry about tomorrow. the team might not even exist in a couple of years. how pathetic is it that your team has to sell off the future on the hopes of winning YOUR FIRST PLAYOFF SERIES EVER so that MAYBE the fickle fans will start attending games so MAYBE your team won't fold?

beyond pathetic!

and we have people here griping because holland didn't give the equivalent of 3 first-round draft picks for an INJURED forsberg? what the hell are you people smoking?!



#29 Barrie

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:28 PM

Good call betterREDthandead thumbup.gif. No one would have guessed we'd be the 3rd best team in the league right now.
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#30 zata40

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:30 PM

if we are going to get someone it doesnt need to be some big hot shot,i'd prefer that we didnt. what we need is someone who can just contribut enough to help out the team ( i'd say someone like Anson Carter )
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#31 Lou_Siffer

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:32 PM

QUOTE(betterREDthandead @ February 17, 2007 - 12:17PM) View Post

Has everyone forgotten what this team looked like going into Traverse City this past summer? For those who have, which appears to be most, I'll sum it up. The Red Wings looked a lot like this:

???

We had absolutely NO IDEA we'd be in this position right now, fighting for a spot at the top of the conference, possibly the league. There wasn't a person on this board, in the organization, or in the media, who expected the Wings to be a serious Cup contender at this point in the season. It wasn't a rebuilding year, more of a re-evaluating year. Take a step back, see what these players were capable of and go from there.

Remember all the saying we'd just be happy if we made the playoffs and that would be nice because of all the turnover and let's not get our expectations too high this year? So much for that, I guess.

That's why Holland didn't bother going after these guys in the offseason. Why mess with something that you already don't have a clue how it'll turn out, and tie up future-wasting money in the process? The answer to Lou's question, Did you not expect this?, is a huge NO!, of course not, not a single one of us expected the Wings to be where they are now. Hindsight is always 20/20.


The thing is alot of this pent up frustration people like myself and Barnes have still goes back to the way Holland spent the whole offseason dicking around with Shanahan and not signing someone like Guerin. The explanation then for not signing any gritty forwards was that Holland didnt think the time was right and would leave all that cap space for the trade deadline. Now, if you go by Holland's history and what we read, the Wings arent willing to put up anything of significance to acquire anybody. So if we just go and do something stupid and trade for a guy no one else wants like Sergei Fedorov (thats just my own personal rumor people, dont blow your brains out yet lol) then not making any signings wasnt smart at all. Why was that cap space not used to address needs at forward last offseason? Know what im saying? I know theres still time and everything, so im not crucifying Holland yet. I just dont really feel too good about the type of players we're gonna end up getting..
Aaron Downey tally = 4 Wins (Mclaren, PARROS, *Laperriere*, Wisniewski) - 1 L (**Boll**) - 5 Draws (Walker, Fedoruk, Davison, Shelley, O'Donnell)

(* = beatdown) (** = at the end of a shift)

Preseason prediction - Anaheim over Philadelphia in 6 (ok, well i'll settle for one right...)

#32 YoungGuns1340

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:33 PM

Do people not understand that businessmen use the media as a tool?? If hes saying "I dont need to make a trade" that moves him out of the light of desperation.


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#33 Lou_Siffer

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:37 PM

I guess the jist of what im saying is if he's not willing to give up anything good in trade then what was the purpose of saving all the cap space.
Aaron Downey tally = 4 Wins (Mclaren, PARROS, *Laperriere*, Wisniewski) - 1 L (**Boll**) - 5 Draws (Walker, Fedoruk, Davison, Shelley, O'Donnell)

(* = beatdown) (** = at the end of a shift)

Preseason prediction - Anaheim over Philadelphia in 6 (ok, well i'll settle for one right...)

#34 YoungGuns1340

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:42 PM

QUOTE(haroldsnepsts @ February 17, 2007 - 12:54PM) View Post

Did miss something?

Did they move the trade deadline up to yesterday?

Here's a thought. Next time someone feels the urge to go on a rant about how much Holland sucks and how he's not going to trade for any good player and we're going to lose in the first round of the playoffs, write it down a piece of paper. Make a list.

Then when the trade deadline actually passes, if nothing happens, you can grab your handy little list and ***** to your heart's content.

What the hell do you want Holland to say? "We desperately need to make a move! If we don't get a gritty winger, we're screwed!" It wouldn't exactly help his bargaining position.


At least someone understands business tactics.
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#35 Lou_Siffer

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:45 PM

QUOTE(YoungGuns1340 @ February 17, 2007 - 12:33PM) View Post

Do people not understand that businessmen use the media as a tool?? If hes saying "I dont need to make a trade" that moves him out of the light of desperation.


I dont see much of a point in doing that considering the type of players the Wings need to acquire are coveted by multiple teams. Its not like a team such as St Louis would lower their asking price cause "Holland doesnt think he needs to make a trade"....they'll just trade their guys to one of the other probably 5 or 6 teams interested.

I think that tactic is only useful for the borderline sellers to increase the trade offers they recieve. I.E. if the Blues came out and said.."We arent really that far out of the playoff hunt, Im not sure we need to trade Guerin or Tkachuk". They would then probably get better trade offers as a result...thats how the tactic is useful.

Edited by Lou_Siffer, 17 February 2007 - 12:49 PM.

Aaron Downey tally = 4 Wins (Mclaren, PARROS, *Laperriere*, Wisniewski) - 1 L (**Boll**) - 5 Draws (Walker, Fedoruk, Davison, Shelley, O'Donnell)

(* = beatdown) (** = at the end of a shift)

Preseason prediction - Anaheim over Philadelphia in 6 (ok, well i'll settle for one right...)

#36 Mighty Wings

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:54 PM

QUOTE(Lou_Siffer @ February 17, 2007 - 12:37PM) View Post

I guess the jist of what im saying is if he's not willing to give up anything good in trade then what was the purpose of saving all the cap space.


Right. I think there will be a trade made. He may be giving some people a heart attack, by saying "we'd like to, but we don't need to." I'm convinced he will, otherwise if we don't and go out early again, he will be blamed for being inactive when he could've made a move or two, and it will all blow up in his face. I don't know if he'd be willing to take that chance and perhaps even lose his job. Come 3:30pm on the 27th, if there are no moves made to benefit the team at all, this topic will be the most active.

#37 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 12:58 PM

QUOTE(Lou_Siffer @ February 17, 2007 - 09:45AM) View Post

I dont see much of a point in doing that considering the type of players the Wings need to acquire are coveted by multiple teams. Its not like a team such as St Louis would lower their asking price cause "Holland doesnt think he needs to make a trade"....they'll just trade their guys to one of the other probably 5 or 6 teams interested.

I think that tactic is only useful for the borderline sellers to increase the trade offers they recieve. I.E. if the Blues came out and said.."We arent really that far out of the playoff hunt, Im not sure we need to trade Guerin or Tkachuk". They would then probably get better trade offers as a result...thats how the tactic is useful.

even if it didn't affect his positioning in the trade, it would still be pretty stupid for a GM to come out in the press and say they really needed a player one week before the deadline.

Holland should be judged by his actions (or inaction). I could care less what he says to the media.

If the trade deadline passes and he doesn't make a move, then he seems to be content for this team to do well in the regular season and fail in the playoffs, and I will be extremely frustrated. But I'll at least give him until the deadline.

#38 YoungGuns1340

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 01:06 PM

QUOTE(Lou_Siffer @ February 17, 2007 - 01:45PM) View Post

I dont see much of a point in doing that considering the type of players the Wings need to acquire are coveted by multiple teams. Its not like a team such as St Louis would lower their asking price cause "Holland doesnt think he needs to make a trade"....they'll just trade their guys to one of the other probably 5 or 6 teams interested.

I think that tactic is only useful for the borderline sellers to increase the trade offers they recieve. I.E. if the Blues came out and said.."We arent really that far out of the playoff hunt, Im not sure we need to trade Guerin or Tkachuk". They would then probably get better trade offers as a result...thats how the tactic is useful.


Burke said the same thing. Nonis said the same thing. Its a tactic they use - and most of them - in order to set the bar a little lower as a market standard. Im sure more GMs have said the same thing. "we arent going to make a trade for the sake of making a trade." The only guy that seems to have lost his head, and probably because the media was calling for his head last year when he couldnt get his stacked team very far, is Muckler who is supposedly offering Eaves for Roberts.
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#39 FinRedWing

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 01:07 PM

QUOTE(betterREDthandead @ February 17, 2007 - 07:17PM) View Post

Has everyone forgotten what this team looked like going into Traverse City this past summer? For those who have, which appears to be most, I'll sum it up. The Red Wings looked a lot like this:

???

We had absolutely NO IDEA we'd be in this position right now, fighting for a spot at the top of the conference, possibly the league. There wasn't a person on this board, in the organization, or in the media, who expected the Wings to be a serious Cup contender at this point in the season. It wasn't a rebuilding year, more of a re-evaluating year. Take a step back, see what these players were capable of and go from there.

Remember all the saying we'd just be happy if we made the playoffs and that would be nice because of all the turnover and let's not get our expectations too high this year? So much for that, I guess.

That's why Holland didn't bother going after these guys in the offseason. Why mess with something that you already don't have a clue how it'll turn out, and tie up future-wasting money in the process? The answer to Lou's question, Did you not expect this?, is a huge NO!, of course not, not a single one of us expected the Wings to be where they are now. Hindsight is always 20/20.


It's always cup or bust for the Wings nowadays.
I think we operate too close to the cap max just to be pleased to make the playoffs.
Besides,I bet all the players expect and hope to win the cup every season (especially when they play for "bigger" teams like the Wings).
Why should we fans be any different?

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#40 Drake_Marcus

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Posted 17 February 2007 - 01:34 PM

Well to me that article reads like an attempt to soften the blow for wings fans when nothing big happens.

But honestly, as long as Hitchcock walks into the offseason with the drive to add a top notch scoring winger and hopefully fixing the centre issues of the second line then I'm happy.

This year isn't the last year the Wings will be cup contenders! So I'd say it's very, very foolish to make a last ditch effort to bring the cup this season by sacrificing the future, and trading Huds or Flips would have been just that.

Dump J-Willy, line up a Lindstrom prodigy (which some would argue has already been done!) and make sure we've got someone nail down long term for after Hasek retires (again, some see Howard as just this, but I'm not convinced until I see him play in the NHL- not that I'm saying he's bad, but rather I'm wary about prospects until they actually hit the NHL ice).

Ideally then July rolls around: Dats is still wearing a Wings jersey, Lids is signed on for 2 more years minimum, Hasek has proven he's not as injury prone now that he's watching himself and protecting his groin, a great future defense prospect is working out and we have some Lids like career players to look forward to.

I love knowing that a player who's respected and awed league wide is a career Red Wing. But then again who doesn't want that for their favourite team?
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