Bertuzzi ethics... help settle an argument

[motorcitykid 42]

"That is laughable. And figures why no other teams were real interested in him."

[Heaton 1]

OK, define real interest then. Either you want him, or you don't. There's no gray area.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

I'm not here to bulls*** over semantics. Burke contacted Florida's GM; he held a real interest. You have no argument. Show's over.

[Mors 201]

Non Sequitur. Are you trying to confuse me with non-logic? I am saying that Moore didn't bring the suit merely because he thought he would have made that much money in the mean-time. He brought the suit because he has a stack of bills on his desk that add up to millions of dollars. He is currently at a loss and would like to be made whole. Your insinuation that it is some kind of "get rich quick" scheme is ignorant of the heart-ache and hassle that comes when bringing a personal injury tort action under the common law. That being said, it doesn't always all come down to money.

I always love it when forum posters use the internet to flex their clearly massive intellects, bravo.

Do you honestly believe that the Avalanche wheeled Moore out of the hospital, and said "Enjoy your bills, cya", and that they provided no assistance whatsoever? Highly unlikely that he was left to foot the bill for his rehabilitation, and that he simply needs that $20 million to get by. I didn't imply that he was just in it to get rich, nor was I actually the first poster to mention that it's doubtful Moore would have made anywhere near that amount of money in his "illustrious" career.

Regardless, the money factor in this issue is just one of many, and happens to be the one brought up quite frequently from people who seem to think Bertuzzi should basically sacrifice his own life and income because of the unpredictable events that occurred that day. Was Bertuzzi wrong? yes. Did Bertuzzi know Moore was going to break his neck? doubtful.

This isn't the first cheapshot in the history of hockey, and far from the last since then...

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Hate Ken Holland? Grow up.

I disagree with lots of what he does. We've been over the reasons before.

As for the guys you named, come talk when the playoffs are done.

No-one said they guarantee Cups, but side by side, Bertuzzi is definitely not on the top of my wish list.

Apparently not many GM's either.

But yet again, there is one dude jumping up & down telling us how lucky we are ... Holland.

More of the same old same old.

Brian Burke? Former Vancouver GM. Nuff said.

So let me get this straight.... Bertuzzi was apparently a cancer to his team after the incident and let his team down by not being a leader anymore right? That is what you said, so why would a former Vancouver GM in Brian Burke, want a guy back on a different squad if he was such a poor athlete? Your logic is flawed. I'd also like to point out that you have succeeded in avoiding my reply to you except for the little "grow up" remark that makes no sense at all. Maybe you don't hate Holland, but you certainly dislike him and it has already shown through this past offseason when you complained because Holland wasn't making any moves that you approved of. No one pretends to be an excellent GM as much as you do, it's time to stop and actually judge moves after they have been able to develop, instead of pre-judging everything this team does.

[Turretin 0]

I always love it when forum posters use the internet to flex their clearly massive intellects, bravo.

Do you honestly believe that the Avalanche wheeled Moore out of the hospital, and said "Enjoy your bills, cya", and that they provided no assistance whatsoever? Highly unlikely that he was left to foot the bill for his rehabilitation, and that he simply needs that $20 million to get by. I didn't imply that he was just in it to get rich, nor was I actually the first poster to mention that it's doubtful Moore would have made anywhere near that amount of money in his "illustrious" career.

Regardless, the money factor in this issue is just one of many, and happens to be the one brought up quite frequently from people who seem to think Bertuzzi should basically sacrifice his own life and income because of the unpredictable events that occurred that day. Was Bertuzzi wrong? yes. Did Bertuzzi know Moore was going to break his neck? doubtful.

This isn't the first cheapshot in the history of hockey, and far from the last since then...

Unfortunately, you are talking to a real life litigator. Yikes. So since I did not use the internet, I will thank you for complimenting me on my massive intellect! The fact is, you can argue over damages all you want, but you have no clue what the actual damages were, and I am telling you from experience, 20M actually isn't a huge amount for a personal injury case where the spine was broken, especially with explicit intent. You seem to be backing off of your comment (which you should) where you attacked Moore for asking way more than he was entitled to as a "4th line scrub." I am glad to see that.

Lastly, do not conflate the issues of the validity of Moore's claim with how Bertuzzi should respond. Because I have faith in the legal system, I think not only should Bertuzzi fight it to the best of his ability, he should not be punished further than that which the judicial system has meted out. Don't worry about it, I have made comments I wish I hadn't in the past too. I just wanted to show you that it is not clear that Moore is asking more than he is entitled to. Spinal surgery is a rare expertise, and those surgeons are expensive. Not to mention everything else...

EDIT: spelling.

Edited March 3, 2007 by Turretin

[vladyfan 0]

I don't like Bertuzzi much on a personal level, but seriously, we got to let this incident just fade away.

It was in the heat of the moment act...

That still doesn't excuse what Bertuzzi did...

Bertuzzi probably regrets what he did...

He's done his time and is trying to resume a normall career...

He'll never forget this but he's moved on...

We should too.

I suggest you find a clip of Matt Johnson when he was with the Kings I believe. Johnson skates up behind Jeff Beukeboom and delivers one of the most vicous sucker punches i've ever seen. Beukeboom was an enormous man, 6-5, 230 pounds maybe and a pretty good fighter and Johnson flat out KO'd him with a glove on punch from behind. It in effect ended Beukeboom's career.

Beukeboom couldn't play anymore, Johnson got suspended for like 10 games and nobody in the hockey world batted an eyelash.

Show your husband that clip. Then tell him that there have been about 1000 more incidents like this or worse (the Maki-Green stick to the head incident, Tie Domi KO'ing Ulf Samuelsson, etc...) The Bertuzzi incident resulted in the most freakish of injuries to Moore. And that's what it was, a freak incident. The actual punch, the intent from Bertuzzi IMO pales in comparison to the episode with Matt Johnson or even one with Gino Odjick punching Todd Harvey from behind. Those punches seemed to be thrown with more ferocity yet nobody got their neck broke. I guess the point i'm making is that maybe you can convince your husband that what Bertuzzi did is not all that uncommon in hockey. It's a cheapshot no doubt but hardly the most wicked cheapshot in history, it just had the most devastating effect. The injury to Moore was probably one in a million but the actual act by Bertuzzi was nothing too out of the ordinary as far as hockey cheap shots go.

Great point, SW Fan...I really was not trying to bash Bert again. I am the one who was defending him. I just wanted to get some other hockey examples of things against the rules that players should not do that could go wrong. I used the hitting from behind example... what if that ends a career?

Thanks for the imput.

[vladyfan 0]

OK, let's clear a few things up here.

I'm Vladyfan's husband, I'm the guy that made all this s*** happen:

My point: If I were the guy, that crippled another guy, AS A DIRECT FUGGIN' RESULT OF BREAKING THE GOD DAMN RULES, I don't know if I could continue to skate professionally.

That's pretty simple to understand, right?

I would like to believe that I would have enough integrity to walk away from the game.

I should not be out there skating around enjoying myself.

I should not be able to earn a living playing a game.

It should affect me to the point where I quit the game, at least to the point until the other guy is able to come back.

Doesn't matter if he's a ham and egger, or a first line starter.

I crippled a guy, through my own disregard for the rules.

Please don't dredge up any stupid arguement about Moore not wanting to fight.

He cheap-shotted him, from behind, and it did not work out for the best.

Bottom line: Intention to f*** with someone= serious injury.

How can you defend that?

But hey, that's just me.

[Offsides 21]

If Bertuzzi stops playing, how will he pay the money that he owes Moore. It's just stupid to think...oh he should stop playing. Because it won't help Moore if he stops.

And someone DID have real interest in Bertuzzi, a really good team, The Detroit Red Wings...so who really cares about those other teams?

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Bertuzzi did a very low thing, 3 years ago. He did not intend to put someone out of hockey, to say he did, well that's just silly. Should he have stopped playing hockey? Absolutely not, because that would not solve anything. Someone makes a mistake so it should ruin two people's lives instead of one? And let's set some things straight, while Moore may not be able to play hockey gain professionally, he is no longer facing any long-term injury woes. He can work out - as he has been doing, and can do a lot of other things. The guy is not paralyzed, he can live a normal life. Not to mention he'll be getting 20 million from Bertuzzi or some amount of cash. Bertuzzi did the time the NHL set out for him to do. Bertuzzi abided by the courts decisions and accepted responsibility for his actions. He apaologized on several different occasions - does that make it right? No, but it makes a lot more sense for the guy to continue to play hockey since he still can. And like another poster wrote, with a 20 million lawsuit, he'll need to play hockey in order to meet Moore's suits and such.

I'm not saying the guy should get a free ride from now on, but what has happened has happened, people make mistakes - things can't always be an eye for an eye. Moore may hate Bertuzzi, but I'm sure that he doesn't wish Bertuzzi couldn't play hockey again, assuming Moore is a decent individual who realizes that we live in a world where mistakes happen and that Bertuzzi was not and did not intend to break someones neck.

This issues is damn well annoying, it shouldn't have it's own thread because the media discusses it enough already. It's fine to talk about it, but keep it in the Bertuzzi signed with Detroit thread. Sheesh.

[vladyfan 0]

Look, it's pretty simple(to me)

I cripple a guy, take away his livelihood, or (arguably) greatly hinder his chances, for what it's worth, to earn a living, and I figure the guilt alone would f*** up my ability to play the game at the level it deserves.

Right?

[betterREDthandead 58]

Look, it's pretty simple(to me)

I cripple a guy, take away his livelihood, or (arguably) greatly hinder his chances, for what it's worth, to earn a living, and I figure the guilt alone would f*** up my ability to play the game at the level it deserves.

Right?

If you're late for something, run a red light because you're in a big hurry and don't have time to stop, and broadside another car and cripple the driver, would that make you stop driving?

[CopenhagenWing 38]

It wan`t a sucker punch by D Mac.

Yes, it was.

The subsequent kneeing attempt while Lemieux was down by the boards was disgusting as well.

[vladyfan 0]

If you're late for something, run a red light because you're in a big hurry and don't have time to stop, and broadside another car and cripple the driver, would that make you stop driving?

Wouldn't it make you re-evaluate your life, your plan for getting what you want, and the things you've done to get there?

Worst arguement ever.

[Offsides 21]

Wouldn't it make you re-evaluate your life, your plan for getting what you want, and the things you've done to get there?

Worst arguement ever.

How do you know he hasn't re-evaluated it.

It's a perfect argument. Everyone's done something wrong, on purpose, that they regret. Thank God above that it's not resulted in breaking a guys neck though - for you - but you never do know the future. Bertuzzi will remember, and regret, and pay for his whole life.

It's so easy to stand around all self-righteously and say that you'd never be able to get on when it's not happened to you, because it could. You never do know, and until it does happen you won't know how you'll handle it.

But by all means, if you think you'll never do anything like that...go ahead and throw stones.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Wouldn't it make you re-evaluate your life, your plan for getting what you want, and the things you've done to get there?

Worst arguement ever.

No, the worst argument ever is, "Well, I would stop playing, so everyone should stop playing." Very holier-than-thou of you to assume everyone should feel the same way you do. What it would do for me is that I probably would remember it every time I pulled up to a red light, and thus would not ever run it again.

Lemme ask you this, Mr. Conscience. If Moore can't play again, he's got to have some kind of other way to pay off his medical bills. Bertuzzi is the likely source of income - it's his fault Moore can't play and had to have all this surgery and stuff. How is Bertuzzi supposed to atone for what he did and pay Moore what he owes if he quits playing?

[Offsides 21]

The only way Bertuzzi can make up for what he did is by continuing to play. He's done everything in his power, and that he's been asked to do to atone...short of breaking his own neck, which would accomplish nothing.

The only thing he can do now is soldier on and not do it again.

::I'd take 1 person who actually had to pay for their sin, than 10 who've just NEVER been caught

Edited March 4, 2007 by Offsides

[SwedeLundin77 460]

The only way Bertuzzi can make up for what he did is by continuing to play. He's done everything in his power, and that he's been asked to do to atone...short of breaking his own neck, which would accomplish nothing.

The only thing he can do now is soldier on and not do it again.

::I'd take 1 person who actually had to pay for their sin, than 10 who've just NEVER been caught

Offsides, you are spot on with this post and the one before it.

[bogeygolfer 4]

medical bills??

his bills are covered by the Avs, the injury happened while he was playing for them

also im pretty sure he other forms of comp from the league and PA

[betterREDthandead 58]

medical bills??

his bills are covered by the Avs, the injury happened while he was playing for them

also im pretty sure he other forms of comp from the league and PA

Enough to equal what he'd have made as a player?

[Guest paveldatsukthenextsavard]

Nor did it do the real damage. This debate is old and settled. It was the punch and driving Moore's face into the ice. Period. Don't start to sound like NUCKleheads now... Bert meant to hurt to him and did so; there's no way around it. He totally lost it. But I doubt he expected to cause permanent, career-ending damage. And what a career! Moore was a marginal player, let's face it. I think it's a fair question to ask, whether he would make out better in a courtroom or the icerink in the long run... The fact that Moore looked like a mealy-mouthed little weasel with his neckbrace on afterward should have no bearing on the situation. Ahem... but I digress.

Bertuzzi has been vilified because of it and he has paid dearly for his actions. I don't believe in shunning him for the rest of his life. Time to move on. And if you can't move on, atleast STFU.

to be honest i think he'll make out much better in the long run in the courtroom, he was a 4th line, and the figure i heard that he was asking was 20 mil, 15 for salary and the rest were for other damages, even if he played 15 seasons he probably wouldn;t have made that much.

[Don_Cherry_says 0]

Sheesh. I vacate this board for a couple of years, and some sorta Bertuzzi lovefest breaks out among the Wings fans on these boards !! When Todd was a Canuck, Wings fans absolutely roasted him, often, on these threads. Now that Todd's a Wing ... most of you figure he's "OK". That's kinda ironic. Most of the posts on this thread read like they coulda been lifeted from the Canucks' Fan Forum boards post-Moore incident. Anyway ... you've got him now, for better or for worse. Most Vancouver fans wish Todd well, on a human level. He went through hell, and was punished worse than just about any hockey player ever was ... and the punishment isn't over, as Moore's lawyers are intent on sucking every dollar out of him they can get. In fact, Moore's parents are even in on this lawsuit ... they stand to make a fair chunk of money out of it as well.

Anyway, when Bert wants to play hockey, he's a force to be reckoned with. We found, many nights in Vancouver, that Todd just wanted to "float". Maybe that was because (in private) he didn't get along well with Crawford. I noticed that Todd even had his chistrap done up in those practice photo's ... he never woulda done that for Crawford ... that was just one of many little things that "Crow" would ride Bert on.

Bert was never the same, post-Moore, in Vancouver. He was a broken man, despite the brave words ... "it is what it is" ... how many times did we hear that soundbite on vancouver radio stations? Anyway ... Bert, we wish you the best. Hope you get your career and your personal life back on track. Best wishes ...

[WendelClark 0]

simply put, he sucker punched a guy... end of story

watch all the cheapskate artists out there and they do it all the time, difference this time the guy fell and got hurt... boo f'ing hoo

didnt the ol timers used to get sticks upon the head and get cracked skulls.. Howe?

the guy wouldnt fight so he punched him on the side of the head.. caused the injury?? no way... big deal... no way

just relax (edited.. didnt mean to get personal)

hockey is hockey a punch is a punch, injuries happen....

guy takes a really cheap slash and goes down.. falls on his face and ends his career... guy that slashed him obviously needs to retire and face huge lawsuits jail time and .. well just kill himself... GET REAL - GET OVER IT

sorry i had to vent (its been a bad day)

Edited March 4, 2007 by WendelClark

[Offsides 21]

I never hated TB for the hit. I wasn't one of the people with pitchforks and torches. However, even if I had been, it's sort of how the game goes. I can say I hated the idea of Chelios on the team...love him now.

You live, you learn, you realize that there's two sides to every story, everyone has some good in them, and it's a lot easier to love a gritty guy, when he's YOUR gritty guy. It's how it goes.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Either he was in demand or he wasn't.

Do tell.

Cause holding up Brian Burke, [who along with Naslund & Marc Crawford defended what he did to Steve Moore], as proof other teams wanted him is hilarious.

We got him on the cheap. For next to nothing.

Safe to say the interest in Bertuzzi was pretty damn limited.

What is it Holland didn't get that most other GM's seemed to?

So, this means you would rather have given up more for Bertuzzi. You're saying that since we got him for cheap, that means he sucks. Strange logic you have.