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WhiteLightning91

Martin Brodeur Vs. Patrick Roy

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mhm, could not find it in any post...

Brodeur allready scored two goals in his career. ok, one was a present..but don`t forget this if you compare them.. :blush:

:lol: Wasn't Brodeur just the last one to touch the puck on his second goal making him the default goal scorer?

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Hasek's save percentage is inflated from the style Buffalo played. Buffalo, during Hasek's time, played a defensive style that was designed to limit quality chaces by forcing perimeter shots rather than attempting to prevent all shots like most teams had done to that point. While it's true Hasek had to stop a lot of shots, most of them were long and unscreened shots. Only once on a 'traditional' style defense has Hasek posted a sv pct. above .915, something Roy has done six times and Brodeur four.

And even discounting Buffalo's interesting defense, it's an example that has been seen many times over the years; the goalies with the higher save percentages are also often the ones who see more shots. If Goalie A sees 24 shots per game, and Goalie B sees 30, but only one of the additional six is a quality scoring chance, Goalie B will likely have a better save percentage.

The only way to truly judge who is better is to put them on the ice behind the same defense against the same competition. Barring that, two comparable defenses work. Beyond that, you must consider the differences in the defenses in front of the goalie and how it affects his numbers.

Canada could have won in that shootout if they had iced Yzerman and Fleury instead of Gretzky and Bourque during it.

Hasek is carrying the Wings in much the same way that Holmstrom or Lang are. I'll leave that to you to interpret.

This quote really makes you look like you havent watched the games Hasek played in the late 90-s. Buffalo did not have good defense and did not limit shots to the outside. They gave up multiple scoring chances per game and Dom used to stop a lot of breakaways, 2 on 1-s per game. Thats why he was known as the best goalie on odd man rushes. Not because he would see one every 5 games like Brodeur.

Hasek was by far the most dominant goalie of our lifetime in his prime and that has been said by many many hockey people.

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Hasek>Brodeur>Roy (in their primes) and I don't need stats to tell me that, I've watched them play.

Roy was technically perfect but Brodeur was better mentally. Hasek had a crazy style that enabled him to make saves no one else could but it also cost him goals at times.

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This quote really makes you look like you havent watched the games Hasek played in the late 90-s. Buffalo did not have good defense and did not limit shots to the outside. They gave up multiple scoring chances per game and Dom used to stop a lot of breakaways, 2 on 1-s per game. Thats why he was known as the best goalie on odd man rushes. Not because he would see one every 5 games like Brodeur.

Hasek was by far the most dominant goalie of our lifetime in his prime and that has been said by many many hockey people.

Agreed, the poster who said the Sabres limited the opposition to outside shots predominantly doesn't know what he's talking about--that guy was the best player in the league for three years 97-99, the Hockey News called him the #1 player in the league in '95 as well. People who proclaim this stuff WATCH games...all teams' games. Brodeur has one season where he's facing a few more shots and suddenly all his under-20 a night 1st Round loss seasons are 45 save shutouts. I have infinite game tapes that I could peruse to prove this on both goalies' behalfs, but there really is no point, since "Brodeur is so SICK!" and "Hasek is OLD!".

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Brodeur will be the greatest goalie ever when he retires. This season has been his best so far...without Stevens, Danyeko and Neidermayer. The dude is tank, I am proud to say the only non Red Wings jersey I own is a Marty Brodeur jersey.

mhm, could not find it in any post...

Brodeur allready scored two goals in his career. ok, one was a present..but don`t forget this if you compare them.. :blush:

He has 35 points his entire career. That is better than my buddy Butenschon. The "gift" goal, was it not scored on a goalie too? It was a fluke yes, but pleasing nonetheless.

You cannot say Brodeur is better because he scored goals. What you can say is that he is an amazing puck handling/moving goalie. The best ever infact, the dude is moves the puck better than most of his d-men.

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...and I don't need stats to tell me that, I've watched them play.

Agreed!

Roy's butterfly style, while innovative, relied on an execution so precise that if disrupted would leak like a sieve. If Roy gave up three goals you could be almost certain of a fourth. This is true, to some extent of almost any butterfly keeper if their hot, they are perfect, but once knocked off stride they have trouble bouncing back (see: Brian Boucher's modern era shutout record)

What I like about Broduer (Hasek as well) is that his style of play gives him options. It is not a matter of cutting down amount of net to shoot at, but being certain that he can stop the puck, all with those little pads he wears.

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It's really cool that Hasek was brought into this thread as a third party and I really love how he's getting a lot of support. The guy was dominant in the Czechoslovakian league before coming over to the NHL, winning Goaltender of the Year from 1986 through 1990 and named the top ice hockey player in 1987, 1989 and 1990. His stats in the NHL have already been mentioned and they're stellar and the awards he's won reflects this very well (still the only goalie to win the Hart twice right?).

Besides that there's one thing that's a little strange and that's his behavior in 96-97 for the Sabres. I'm still kinda confused about it.

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Guest Agalloch

Well, although Brodeur benefited from Stevens and Niedermayer a lot, and Roy is amazing in the playoffs, I'd still take Brodeur. His stats are all around better than Roy's, and he won't let in any dumb goals by trying a patented Statue of Liberty save.

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Guest Tunbo Batman

Hasek, when at his best, was the best of all his contemporaries, remember Nagano and Gretzky's frustration.

and by the way, this year, at 42, Hasek is carrying the lowly Detroit to the Presidents trophy! :hehe:

lowly Detroit. yeah, that sounds about right.

meanwhile, Miller is leading lowly Buffalo to the top of the eastern conference.

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Buffalo did not have good defense and did not limit shots to the outside. They gave up multiple scoring chances per game and Dom used to stop a lot of breakaways, 2 on 1-s per game.

Multiple scoring chances!!

IF Buffalo did that, and New Jersey DIDN'T, then Brodeur is a pretty bad goalie because his GAA has never been at or below 1...which means he gives up an average of a bad goal or more per game!!

I never said Hasek didn't face odd man rushes. My post had to do with the in-zone cycling and offense rather than transitional plays. That said, Hasek didn't face significantly more breakaways than other goalies--he was just better at stopping them than most.

The difference is that Buffalo play a low risk scheme that was based on limiting quality of shots rather than quantity. For example, if you were to rate each shot's 'scorability' on a scale of 1-10, 1 meaning shooting it into the goalie's glove, and ten meaning a sure goal. New Jersey would likely have a higher percentage of shots reaching the 7-8-9 range, while Buffalo would have seen a much larger number of 4-5-6 shots.

Ultimately, it all comes down to opinion. Who would you rather have in their prime, Brodeur, Roy, or Hasek? There's not really a wrong answer there.

Roy's butterfly style, while innovative

What's so innovative about copying Glenn Hall?

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lowly Detroit. yeah, that sounds about right.

meanwhile, Miller is leading lowly Buffalo to the top of the eastern conference.

Hey man, how many smilies should I add to a sentence, so that it is understood as a joke? ;)

Edited by unkempt

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I'd break this question down into three parts.

If I were coaching a team for 1 season, and I could pick one of these goalies in their prime to play for me that 1 season... I'd pick Hasek. There were a few years that he was just UNBELIEVABLE. If the Sabres had a better team in front of him back then, they could have won 3-4 cups.

Now, if i'm a GM and i'm starting a franchise, and I could pick one of these goalies as a rookie to build my team around... I'd pick Brodeur. He's a model of consistency. He's a leader in the locker room and on the ice. He's a "company man" (stolen from his book, yes) who will take a pay cut to keep the team competitive.

And if i'm a coach who has to win one game and I can pick one of these goalies in his prime... I'd pick Roy. He had the ability to take over a game and single handedly defeat the opponent.

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Multiple scoring chances!!

IF Buffalo did that, and New Jersey DIDN'T, then Brodeur is a pretty bad goalie because his GAA has never been at or below 1...which means he gives up an average of a bad goal or more per game!!

I never said Hasek didn't face odd man rushes. My post had to do with the in-zone cycling and offense rather than transitional plays. That said, Hasek didn't face significantly more breakaways than other goalies--he was just better at stopping them than most.

The difference is that Buffalo play a low risk scheme that was based on limiting quality of shots rather than quantity. For example, if you were to rate each shot's 'scorability' on a scale of 1-10, 1 meaning shooting it into the goalie's glove, and ten meaning a sure goal. New Jersey would likely have a higher percentage of shots reaching the 7-8-9 range, while Buffalo would have seen a much larger number of 4-5-6 shots.

Ultimately, it all comes down to opinion. Who would you rather have in their prime, Brodeur, Roy, or Hasek? There's not really a wrong answer there.

What's so innovative about copying Glenn Hall?

Well, you've successfully copied and pasted your first post into a new reply. Thank you for restating the same point as before, the fact is, anyone who actually watched the Sabres of that era (rather than just reading about them or catching the odd game) knows that while Buffalo might've attempted this strategy (out of necessity being an unskilled and young team), the end result was not as watertight as the idea, and was, essentially, what every team in the league tries to do: defend. In fact, Buffalo's young players would take more chances due to their confidence in the goaltending, which, in turn, would lead to the odd-man rushes the other way. Claiming NJ gave up better quality scoring chances than Buffalo in those years is just plain inaccurate.

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If the Sabres had a better team in front of him back then, they could have won 3-4 cups.

Since the league expanded to 16 teams, only three goalies have even won four cups in a span of ten years.

Ken Dryden, Billy Smith, and Grant Fuhr.

The 70s Canadiens, 80s Isles, and 80s Oilers are universally agreed upon as THE most dominant teams in NHL history.

You could say 'the Wings would have won in 99, 00, and 01, if Konstantinov hadn't been in that limo' because each year they had a legitimate shot--99 (Osgood) and 01 (Shanahan, Yzerman) were cut short by injuries to key players we didn't have anyone to fill the shoes of, and in 00 Colorado went 5 for 26 on the PP, and only scored 6 goals at even strength. Konstantinov's presence likely would have turned the series in Detroit's favor.

So the answer basically is...'if a goalie has one of the best teams ever for several years with no major injury issues, he will likely win four cups.

Because we know how often that happens!

Well, you've successfully copied and pasted your first post into a new reply. Thank you for restating the same point as before, the fact is, anyone who actually watched the Sabres of that era (rather than just reading about them or catching the odd game) knows that while Buffalo might've attempted this strategy (out of necessity being an unskilled and young team), the end result was not as watertight as the idea, and was, essentially, what every team in the league tries to do: defend. In fact, Buffalo's young players would take more chances due to their confidence in the goaltending, which, in turn, would lead to the odd-man rushes the other way. Claiming NJ gave up better quality scoring chances than Buffalo in those years is just plain inaccurate.

I said NJ gave up a higher percentage of quality chances.

Meaning Hasek would face maybe five quality chances on 30 shots, while Brodeur would see 3 on 20.

Also one must account that HASEK (and many other goalies) plays better when he sees more rubber. For a goalie to be able to come up with big saves after not seeing much and not getting in the game is just as impressive as a goalie being able to stop a couple whacks at rebounds.

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And if i'm a coach who has to win one game and I can pick one of these goalies in his prime... I'd pick Roy. He had the ability to take over a game and single handedly defeat the opponent.

just make sure it's not a Game 7

No I am not.

I really gotta run so I'll just say it quickly.

Hasek: 6 Vezinas in 8 years Roy: Roy 3 in 18

Hasek: 2 Hart trophies (in a row) Roy: 0

Hasek: 2 Pearson Trophies (in a row) Roy: 0

Hasek lead the league in save % for 6 straight years and was tied for first once and was 2nd last year at age 41.

Hasek holds the top 5 saving %-s of the WHOLE decade. (all with 0.930 and over which by the way other then Hasek has only been done 3 times)

Roy's career season in save % (0.925) is only 0.001 higher then Hasek's career AVERAGE!

Dont start talking about cups because that is a team accomplishment and so is wins.

exactly, Roy really is overrated, Hasek didn't have the benefit of playing on the same teams and winning a championship is really a team thing. In terms of the Conn Smyths, well , again, if your teams doesn't at least make the SCFs you have no chance of winning it. The last time a goalie won the CS when thier team got bounced out in the 2nd round of the PO's was Hainsworth, too bad that was in the 60's when there were only 2 rounds!

If Hasek was born in Canada he'd easily be considered the greatest goalie of all-time.

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The last time a goalie won the CS when thier team got bounced out in the 2nd round of the PO's was Hainsworth, too bad that was in the 60's when there were only 2 rounds!

Was this a posthumous award? The only NHL player ever named Hainsworth was George Hainsworth, who was the first goalie to be a team captain 32-33 with Montreal, and won the first three Vezina trophies in 1927-29.

He was killed in a car accident in 1950 at the age of 55, and was inducted in the HHOF in 1961.

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Meanwhile, Marty's getting shelled today. The Devils only have 6 SOG through a period and a half...and they're losing to the Hurricanes 4-0.

EDIT: Wow, he just got pulled. That's a rarity. Four goals on twelve shots against.

Edited by edicius

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Meanwhile, Marty's getting shelled today. The Devils only have 6 SOG through a period and a half...and they're losing to the Hurricanes 4-0.

EDIT: Wow, he just got pulled. That's a rarity. Four goals on twelve shots against.

I have a feeling that Brodeur is slowing down of late.

Maybe the idea of 78 starts in the regular season may not have been that bright after all?

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Was this a posthumous award? The only NHL player ever named Hainsworth was George Hainsworth, who was the first goalie to be a team captain 32-33 with Montreal, and won the first three Vezina trophies in 1927-29.

He was killed in a car accident in 1950 at the age of 55, and was inducted in the HHOF in 1961.

sorry, my bad, it was Glenn Hall but the point remains the same.

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