Black eye for the NHL argument

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I've been thinking the past few days, somebody feel free to knock me right off my feet if you think I am totally wrong, but I get the perception in here that whenever something bad happens (like Simon's or Tootoo's recent actions), that there is an overreaction, generally speaking, that this is going to just give the NHL bad pub, and nobody is going to like it, and that this is the only sport where horrible things happen, as compared to the other major professional leagues.

The NHL isn't going away anytime soon in my opinion, and yes, they do need good publicity. I definitely do not support incidents like the ones by Simon or Tootoo that have recently occured.

MLB, the NFL, and the NBA are all more popular than the NHL by the general population, yes. But, there are incidents that happen in these leagues all the time as well.

Whether it's a pitcher intentionally beaning a batter causing dugouts to find, thus handing out suspenions for both teams...

Whether it's that idiot who intentionally stomped on the other player's head (I think he played for the Titans?) when the play was over and the guy was still down...

Whether you have NBA players blow gaskets getting multiple technical fouls, getting suspended or fined for a few games, or the unfortunate incident of the Pistons-Pacers last season (I'd rather not get into an argument of whose fault that was b/w players, fans, etc.).

The point is, that bad things happen in all the leagues, not just the NHL, so it doesn't really concern me that a bad incident will cause the sport to be less popular to the casual fan.

Good perspective, or am I totally off base here?

[timothy1997 0]

excellent prespective. Personally I think the NHL lives for incidents like this. It gets people talking about hockey that normally wouldn't. Leafs-Devils probably got higher ratings than usual last night based on what happened to Kaberle a few weeks ago.

Yes it does give the NHL a black eye but the NHL already has a black eye because of the lockout. They are also viewed in the US as a silly game that Canadians play. My point is hockey is not considered a serious sport in the United States.

[Guest LivingtheDream]

I agree that other sports have as many or more problems, but for some reason the NHL is judged more harshly. Still, you would like to think other things make it to the news, like some amazing goal or save. Things like that will make casual fans real fans and the NHL can't afford to lose either.

[auxlepli 17]

Any publicity is good publicity they say.

I don't necessarily agree with that though.

[LIDDYGIBBY5 1]

No sport likes to have issues like this. The entire NFL was upset when that lineman stepped on the guys face. All of the NCAA was ready to suspend that kid who threw the elbow into that North Carolina's players nose. MLB is fighting the steroids battle like it is the war on terror. The NBA gave a huge suspension to Carmello for the fight he was in. All of these things happened in the most recent seasons of the respective leagues. No one wants things like this to happen.

[shannyfan1414 0]

It’s too bad that these types of things happen in any sport. Right now it seems to be the only way that Hockey can get a full segment on ESPN. I hope we don't have too many more of these situations, but it does get the word out that the NHL is still here and could possibly get a couple more viewers. Lots of people out there might start watching to see something bad happen. Its like driving by an accident, almost everyone slows down to take a peak.

Not exactly how the NHL should get fans but I’m sure some people might have tuned in for the first time after the Simon or Tootoo incident

Great point SouthernWingsFan. I agree with 100%.

Edited March 21, 2007 by shannyfan1414

[Legionnaire11 0]

I agree that the NHL gets more negative press. But I don't think it's going to hurt the game.

Just before the lockout we had the Bertuzzi thing, and then a whole season canceled. All we heard was about how the league may never come back, or how the league was going to come back and then fold a few years down the road and attendance was going to be horrible and the already crappy revenues would decline further...

yet last season coming off the lockout the league had it's highest attendance ever and it's highest revenue intake ever. This season the league is on pace to beat both of those marks again.

Despite what the media would like us to believe, it's not exactly the sinking ship that we were warned about.

[gowingsgo 3]

Without a better national tv deal, the NHL isnt even on the radar with those other sports. I would not consider the NHL one of the top 5 major pro sports in the US. They've got a long ways to go to repair the lockout damage. Hockey has always been a niche sport, but to not have it on national tv damages the game and prevents those who dont normally watch from ever seeing a game.

My top 5:

NFL

NASCAR

MLB

NBA

PGA (golf)

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I've been thinking the past few days, somebody feel free to knock me right off my feet if you think I am totally wrong, but I get the perception in here that whenever something bad happens (like Simon's or Tootoo's recent actions), that there is an overreaction, generally speaking, that this is going to just give the NHL bad pub, and nobody is going to like it, and that this is the only sport where horrible things happen, as compared to the other major professional leagues.

The NHL isn't going away anytime soon in my opinion, and yes, they do need good publicity. I definitely do not support incidents like the ones by Simon or Tootoo that have recently occured.

MLB, the NFL, and the NBA are all more popular than the NHL by the general population, yes. But, there are incidents that happen in these leagues all the time as well.

Whether it's a pitcher intentionally beaning a batter causing dugouts to find, thus handing out suspenions for both teams...

Whether it's that idiot who intentionally stomped on the other player's head (I think he played for the Titans?) when the play was over and the guy was still down...

Whether you have NBA players blow gaskets getting multiple technical fouls, getting suspended or fined for a few games, or the unfortunate incident of the Pistons-Pacers last season (I'd rather not get into an argument of whose fault that was b/w players, fans, etc.).

The point is, that bad things happen in all the leagues, not just the NHL, so it doesn't really concern me that a bad incident will cause the sport to be less popular to the casual fan.

Good perspective, or am I totally off base here?

Its a problem of popularity and coverage.

A couple of things, beaning batters in baseball I think is perfectly within the game. Think of it as you hit our star player in hockey and we go after yours. Same thing, so I don't know if the beaning batters example should be used.

Football and baseball have so much coverage and get so much airtime that unless something totally heinous occurs, it gets drowned out very quickly. In baseball they're playing almost everyday, so if there's an incident it has to compete with all the games and coverage of those games and by a couple of days afterwards there've likely been another 50 games been played and it just loses steam.

Football gets so much coverage that IMO it just overwhelms the negativity. Look at the state of affairs when it comes to football players as a sample group. These guys, even more than NBA players remind me of the Adam Sandler football movie with all the convicts in it. Almost a week doesn't go by that a football player (most likely a Cincinnati Bengal LOL) gets arrested for some incident. But then most of this stuff is off the field of play and goes unnoticed. And lets face it, we get so many hours of highlights and analysis of every goddamned thing football related that any negativity gets swallowed up.

Then you have the NHL. Do they like to show goals, hits , saves? Yeah, for about 30 seconds as the espn lackeys try to figure out how to pronounce Cajanek. The only time we get any real coverage or analysis is if there's a negative incident. Espn doesn't give a rat's ass about the games being played, the scores, the great action. Its just something they have to get through on their way to showing more golf or tennis highlights so if there's a Bertuzzi incident, they're going to show it over and over because they don't want to show anything else or don't care to.

The NHL is in a position of disadvantage and quite frankly, life ain't fair but s*** happens. We're the redheaded stepchild so we've got to face facts that we're going to be viewed unfairly and that until we reach a certain level of popularity where the games being played matter more than isolated incidents, we're just going to have to suck it up and deal with it.

So to answer your question, I think its unfair that our incidents get blown out of proportion but I also think that we have some of the most violent and unacceptable behavior in all of pro sports so its going to go hand in hand.

Until players start swinging baseball bats at each other or start fist fighting in the NFL with regularity or there are more Pistons/Pacers events, the NHL is going to be viewed as the 'ugly' sport of violence. And quite frankly, we are so....

[Legionnaire11 0]

Without a better national tv deal, the NHL isnt even on the radar with those other sports. I would not consider the NHL one of the top 5 major pro sports in the US. They've got a long ways to go to repair the lockout damage. Hockey has always been a niche sport, but to not have it on national tv damages the game and prevents those who dont normally watch from ever seeing a game.

My top 5:

NFL

NASCAR

MLB

NBA

PGA (golf)

I still believe that the NHL is more legit than NASCAR or the PGA. I mean, those "sports" only have one event each week. Each city only has one or two events all year and fans on television only have one event to watch each week. Imagine if the NHL had that kind of schedule, if Nashville only had two hockey games every year, we'd sell 40,000. And a place like Detroit could sell 100,000. Plus television ratings would be higher because everyone would be tuned in to the same game, and with one one game each week to watch, our hunger to see it would be higher so we'd be sure to watch rather than skipping the occasional game that we do now.

[gowingsgo 3]

I still believe that the NHL is more legit than NASCAR or the PGA. I mean, those "sports" only have one event each week. Each city only has one or two events all year and fans on television only have one event to watch each week. Imagine if the NHL had that kind of schedule, if Nashville only had two hockey games every year, we'd sell 40,000. And a place like Detroit could sell 100,000. Plus television ratings would be higher because everyone would be tuned in to the same game, and with one one game each week to watch, our hunger to see it would be higher so we'd be sure to watch rather than skipping the occasional game that we do now.

NASCAR is huge right now and its only growing. The only thing bigger and better than NASCAR is the NFL. Nothing comes close to the NFL in the US.

Get Tiger Woods in one of the final groupings of a major tournament or any tournament for that matter and look what happens to the tv ratings for golf. When Tiger has a chance to win on Sunday, I know I'm glued to the tv.

Hockey doesn't have that kind of build up. The NHL playoffs however, is one of the most exciting times on the year for sports. Its just a shame they dont have the coverage so people can see the game

[Legionnaire11 0]

NASCAR is huge right now and its only growing. The only thing bigger and better than NASCAR is the NFL. Nothing comes close to the NFL in the US.

Get Tiger Woods in one of the final groupings of a major tournament or any tournament for that matter and look what happens to the tv ratings for golf. When Tiger has a chance to win on Sunday, I know I'm glued to the tv.

Hockey doesn't have that kind of build up. The NHL playoffs however, is one of the most exciting times on the year for sports. Its just a shame they dont have the coverage so people can see the game

What if NASCAR had 5 races every day though? they wouldn't come close to selling out that many races, and they wouldn't have nearly the ratings that they get now simply because the fanbase would be spread out a lot thinner.

I'm not saying that racing and golf aren't popular. But the reason that the support for those sports seems to be so unbelievable is that all the fans across the country are united together. They all watch the same event every week and when there is an event in their city it's likely the only chance all year that they will have to see the sport live so they show up in droves.

The NHL would be the same way if they had that kind of schedule

Edited March 21, 2007 by Legionnaire11

[gowingsgo 3]

What if NASCAR had 5 races every day though? they wouldn't come close to selling out that many races, and they wouldn't have nearly the ratings that they get now simply because the fanbase would be spread out a lot thinner.

I'm not saying that racing and golf aren't popular. But the reason that the support for those sports seems to be so unbelievable is that all the fans across the country are united together. They all watch the same event every week and when there is an event in their city it's likely the only chance all year that they will have to see the sport live so they show up in droves.

The NHL would be the same way if they had that kind of schedule

NASCAR is so popular because of the atmosphere. You've got 100,000-200,000 people, most tailgaiting and getting effing hammered before the races. Don't forget the Friday night truck races, the Busch Series on Saturday and then the Nextel race on Sunday. NASCAR isnt just a one day affair.

You could use the same argument for the NFL, only 16 game seasons. But I can tell you I follow football year round. The first thing I do when I get online in the morning is check the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette to read any new Steeler news. I'm very tempted to even fly into Pittsburgh for the NFL draft party they are having. NASCAR is similar, but not at an NFL level yet

[eva unit zero 271]

A couple of things, beaning batters in baseball I think is perfectly within the game. Think of it as you hit our star player in hockey and we go after yours. Same thing, so I don't know if the beaning batters example should be used.

If the other team throws at your guy intentionally, it's acceptable to throw back at one of their guys.

But it's never acceptable to throw at a guy's head. The batter in baseball is in a unique position in all of the major sports in that he is pretty much unprotected and in the path of an object that could cause him serious harm. Catchers and hockey players all have a ton of padding on and are protected.

Beaning a guy because the other team threw at one of your guys is not acceptable. To use the hockey analogy: Imagine if Bertuzzi had had time to get up after smashin Moore into the ice before any Avs player showed up. The comparable situation to a 'realiation beaning' would be if an Avs player came over and pulled a Simon on Bertuzzi.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

If the other team throws at your guy intentionally, it's acceptable to throw back at one of their guys.

But it's never acceptable to throw at a guy's head. The batter in baseball is in a unique position in all of the major sports in that he is pretty much unprotected and in the path of an object that could cause him serious harm. Catchers and hockey players all have a ton of padding on and are protected.

Beaning a guy because the other team threw at one of your guys is not acceptable. To use the hockey analogy: Imagine if Bertuzzi had had time to get up after smashin Moore into the ice before any Avs player showed up. The comparable situation to a 'realiation beaning' would be if an Avs player came over and pulled a Simon on Bertuzzi.

Eva i'm confused by your post, is it acceptable or not to bean a batter in retaliation?

I agree with you that you don't throw at a guy's head, that's uncalled for.

But as for the acceptability of it, I 100% agree with it. I played competitive baseball right up until college where I was obviously not good enough to continue, anyway, baseball is my 2nd love after hockey and IMO its completely a+

cceptable to bean an opposing team's batter if one of your guys was beaned intentionally. The thing I never liked about it is some poor schmuck has to get beaned because you typically can't get at the opposing pitcher as he's not hitting unless its the NL. So that sort of always bugged me that I could get beaned for something I had no part in. Anyway, its a team sport and that's how it has to be viewed as taking one for the team in that scenario.

I don't agree with your Bert analogy as that's an extreme. And yes, baseball has its extreme situations but that's not what i'm talking about.

In baseball, as a pitcher you can pretty much drill anybody you want on any pitch. I know, I pitched for years. When you do it intentionally the other team bean's one of yours intentionally and that's perfectly within the game. Its been that way forever. Now when you get up to 3-4-5 guys getting hit and bench clearing brawls taking place, that's not acceptable and that's more of an extreme situation. Nobody likes to see that stuff happen. But IMO beaning a guy in retaliation is perfectly within the code of baseball.

But you're right, you don't throw for the head.

[TheLegend19 1]

NASCAR is huge right now and its only growing. The only thing bigger and better than NASCAR is the NFL. Nothing comes close to the NFL in the US.

What about baseball? Baseball is our "national pasttime," afterall. In response to Legionnaire, I agree that NASCAR is becoming bigger because there is more of a demand for tickets to events since they only race once a week. Same with the NFL. They played once a week. Every baseball team plays 162 games during 6 months. Many of these games happen during the day during the week (Chicago Cubs), and they still sell them out. People will do anything to get out of work and go to a Cubs game.

Another argument in support of baseball is the amount of teams. In professional baseball, there are four tiers. These tiers are known as Class A, Class AA, Class AAA, and the Major Leagues. Each Major League team has 3 minor league teams in its "farm system" in order to develop and rehabilitate players, as well as coaches. These minor league teams may not be household names throughout the country, but many enjoy much success. As a Sport Enterprise major, I know that, in general, minor league sports are simply for the love of the game. Many teams won't make a profit, but they owners don't care much because they simply love the game. This being said, many minor league teams still enjoy a lot of fan appreciation and support. There is an Independent Minor League Baseball Club about 20 minutes away from my home. They're level of play is the equivalent to Class AA. I get to 3 or 4 of their games every year, and just about every one of them is a sell out. Despite being just 30 minutes from the Chicago Cubs and about 1 hour from the White Sox, people still go to see lower quality baseball. Why? Because they love the game.

In conclusion, I have to argue that baseball is bigger and better than the NFL in the United States.

[Inultus 12]

I think you guys are getting de-railed and while it is a worthy topic to try to dissect which sports are most popular and why I wanted to respond to the initial poster.

I was not one of those people who said that the Bert or Simon incident was a black eye. The lockout was the black eye, as someone had already said.

For my friends who aren't into hockey, when the Bert thing happened they just said oh man, that guy is an idiot for what he did, they didn't attribute it to the sport.

Same thing when whoever it was stepped on someone's head in the NFL. I said hey, that guy is an idiot and as long as the league fines/suspends him appropriately, they are showing it's not acceptable and that's that.

[rwfan007 18]

does anyone know if there has been any attempt to join the NBA,MLB, or PGA on stations like TNT or USA? Those channels are more widely viewed than VS, they have a good reputation for showing sports on a regular basis. If ESPN continues s***ting on the NHL, maybe one of these mainstream alternates would draw some casual viewers who may be channel flipping.