Who do you think needs to go?

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Hasek didn't steal the series

They were both great teams, evenly matched, and Hasek stole that Game 6, which paved the way for them to win the Cup. He was all kinds of clutch throughout the series.

I ask again: Do you believe it is required of goaltenders to steal a series to be considered above average?

and Osgood was second in voting, big deal. The second place guy is just an honorable mention, and on that team there could have been any number of guys who won the trophy.

Bulls***. Second place is what it is. Second best guy in the playoffs, according to the hockey writers.

I am not denying the fact that it takes quality goaltending to win a Cup, rather that on those teams any average or better goaltender would have gotten the job done.

Average goaltending does not win Cups. Stats: Hasek, 1.86GAA, 920 SV%, 6 SOs. Osgood, 2.21GAA, 913 SV% (still second in Smythe voting).

And no, what they have done since is not irrelevent THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!!

Claim: "Let's be honest, both of those Cup years we could have still won if Holland strapped the pads back on and hopped in net."

Sarcasm aside: How does performance afterwards have any bearing on those Cup runs?

Seriously, he isn't even a number one!!

He must be the busiest back up in history, playing 53 games and starting 70% of his team's games.

With regards to save percentage: I assume you believe Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen, Marty Turco, and Vesa Toskala are also unfit to start for their clubs?

Stop making yourself look foolish.

To who? You? I'm not afraid of that.

Edited March 28, 2007 by Heroes of Hockeytown

[imisssergei 0]

I challenge you to watch that series with the Avs and tell me that Hasek wasn't incredibly clutch. This especially held true in game 6, in which he probably was responsible for the Wings not being eliminated. He didn't even need to make 20 saves, but those which he DID make were INCREDIBLE.

This situation holds true this year, in terms of saves; Dom doesn't see many perimeter shots. What he sees are mostly good scoring chances. YES, this does affect his GAA. More weak shots= more saves= higher SV percentage. More good scoring chances = more goals = lower SV percentage.

Watch the games, and see how many incredible weak shots Hasek sees, as opposed to how many the opposing goaltender sees.

Hasek is one of the best goaltenders in the league. Take him or leave him, but VERY few other goalies make the sort of saves he does in tough situations, higher save percentage or not.

Better start watching hockey, dips***, and stop blatantly insulting those who know more because they actually watch games.

Next time you try to make an argument, try to make it clear what it is you are trying to argue for or against. If you watched Detroit's games, you would realize the style they play forces perimeter shots. So are you trying to say that Dom's Sv% is too high?

It's cute to see you trying to defend someone, even though you failed something awful.

They were both great teams, evenly matched, and Hasek stole that Game 6, which paved the way for them to win the Cup. He was all kinds of clutch throughout the series.

I ask again: Do you believe it is required of goaltenders to steal a series to be considered above average?

Bulls***. Second place is what it is. Second best guy in the playoffs, according to the hockey writers.

Average goaltending does not win Cups. Stats: Hasek, 1.86GAA, 920 SV%, 6 SOs. Osgood, 2.21GAA, 913 SV% (still second in Smythe voting).

Claim: "Let's be honest, both of those Cup years we could have still won if Holland strapped the pads back on and hopped in net."

Sarcasm aside: How does performance afterwards have any bearing on those Cup runs?

He must be the busiest back up in history, playing 53 games and starting 70% of his team's games.

With regards to save percentage: I assume you believe Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen, Marty Turco, and Vesa Toskala are also unfit to start for their clubs?

To who? You? I'm not afraid of that.

Sorry I didn't catch this question the first time you asked. No, I don't believe it is required of a goalie to steal a series to be above average. And I won't even argue that in that season Dom was one of the elit goalies in the league. It was probably his last really good year, but nevertheless, it was a good year. And you are missing my point with the 'above avgerage goalie' comment. I simply meant that in those season, if you were to put a guy like say, Marc Denis (of today) in net for those teams, they still would have won. The Holland comment was sarcasism.

All of the goalies you just named, unlike Dom, have HUGE upsides. There is no way you can claim Dom is getting better, or even maintaining status quo. He is getting worse. Deal with it. He is not the goalie we need in net in the future.

[zetterbergfuturemvp 0]

Lang, he can go. And Grigorenko, are u nuts. The guy has never played one day in north America and your willing to let him go because your tired of the talk. Give me a break. I think your age and lack of hockey knowledge come the through with this post.

ya i dont understand the logic of getting rid of grigorenko by some people , hes been one of our top prospects for yrs ,i for one am excited about seeing him play next season ...........as for that list id get rid of lang and maltby , yes i like kirk but its time we get younger and cheaper , i think kopecky can do the job and as mentioned hes younger cheaper and he can hit and proved in the ahl he can score some goals , id also get rid of schneider , we dont need 3 defencemen aged 36 and up , like i said before its time to get younger , and yes we'll miss his shot from the point but i wont miss his 4 million hes most likely to get , if not from us elsewhere ......id rather we bring up kindl, who almost cracked the lineup last season and let him learn from chelios and lidstrom while their still on the team .....also trade lilja and samuelson on draft day for a 6-7th round pick

Edited March 28, 2007 by zetterbergfuturemvp

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

ya i dont understand the logic of getting rid of grigorenko by some people , hes been one of our top prospects for yrs ,i for one am excited about seeing him play next season ...........as for that list id get rid of lang and maltby , yes i like kirk but its time we get younger and cheaper , i think kopecky can do the job and as mentioned hes younger cheaper and he can hit and proved in the ahl he can score some goals , id also get rid of schneider , we dont need 3 defencemen aged 36 and up , like i said before its time to get younger , and yes we'll miss his shot from the point but i wont miss his 4 million hes most likely to get , if not from us elsewhere ......id rather we bring up kindl, who almost cracked the lineup last season and let him learn from chelios and lidstrom while their still on the team .....also trade lilja and samuelson on draft day for a 6-7th round pick

Leave Lils outta this !

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

And you are missing my point with the 'above avgerage goalie' comment. I simply meant that in those season, if you were to put a guy like say, Marc Denis (of today) in net for those teams, they still would have won.

Ridiculous. Marc Denis has never made the playoffs and even on a defensively sound Lightning team this year has numbers far worse than anything Hasek has ever managed in his career. Just because the team was great doesn't mean the goaltending wasn't. Take a great group of skaters and apply a mediocre goalie and everything falls apart (see: 2006 Red Wings).

All of the goalies you just named, unlike Dom, have HUGE upsides. There is no way you can claim Dom is getting better, or even maintaining status quo. He is getting worse. Deal with it. He is not the goalie we need in net in the future.

Who cares? I'm not and never have been talking about "the goalie we need in the future." Let's take a trip in the way-back machine:

"It's our defence that allows Doms subpar preformance to appear stellar. That's the point I have been trying to make!"

So if Hasek has an equal SV% and better GAA than Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen, Turco, Toskala who's giving the subpar performance? Just Hasek? If so, why? Defense? The Stars and Sharks have a very good defense (2nd and 3rd in shots against this year by a not significant margin of 1 and 2 extra shots/per).

[zetterbergfuturemvp 0]

Leave Lils outta this !

LOLL

nice pick of lilja you put up

hes gonna get his first cup when he comes on the ice in his suit LOL

Edited March 28, 2007 by zetterbergfuturemvp

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

LOLL

nice pick of lilja you put up

hes gonna get his first cup when he comes on the ice in his suit LOL

, They coudl roll 7 d-men , then he woulndt be playing alot , but he'd still have his name on the cup.

[imisssergei 0]

Ridiculous. Marc Denis has never made the playoffs and even on a defensively sound Lightning team this year has numbers far worse than anything Hasek has ever managed in his career. Just because the team was great doesn't mean the goaltending wasn't. Take a great group of skaters and apply a mediocre goalie and everything falls apart (see: 2006 Red Wings).

Who cares? I'm not and never have been talking about "the goalie we need in the future." Let's take a trip in the way-back machine:

"It's our defence that allows Doms subpar preformance to appear stellar. That's the point I have been trying to make!"

So if Hasek has an equal SV% and better GAA than Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen, Turco, Toskala who's giving the subpar performance? Just Hasek? If so, why? Defense? The Stars and Sharks have a very good defense (2nd and 3rd in shots against this year by a not significant margin of 1 and 2 extra shots/per).

Once again, GAA is more of a team stat. It doesn't really reflect how good the goalie is or isn't. The Wings are inarguably the best defensive team in the league, this give Dom a lot of room to make mistakes, and get away with them. Of the afore mentioned teams, Buffalo has allowed 224 goals, and SJ has allowed 186. Both teams for the most part of the season have used a two goalie system. And Toskala has been demoted to backup. Neither team is near what Detroit is defensivly.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Man alive. It's almost playoff time. Do we really need this crap right now?

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Once again, GAA is more of a team stat.

It's also a goalie stat. If a goalie sucks, he'll give up lots of goals and his GAA will be bloated. Hasek's is not. Point for that guy.

It doesn't really reflect how good the goalie is or isn't. The Wings are inarguably the best defensive team in the league, this give Dom a lot of room to make mistakes, and get away with them.

So what about Hasek sharing the same save percentage as those other guys? Especially Turco, but the others qualify as well.

Of the afore mentioned teams, Buffalo has allowed 224 goals, and SJ has allowed 186. Both teams for the most part of the season have used a two goalie system.

Miller has started 77% of Buffalo's games. He is the undisputed starter.

I'd like to note that once again stats are not the end all be all. Have you watched all the games this year? Really, he's been great.

[imisssergei 0]

It's also a goalie stat. If a goalie sucks, he'll give up lots of goals and his GAA will be bloated. Hasek's is not. Point for that guy.

So what about Hasek sharing the same save percentage as those other guys? Especially Turco, but the others qualify as well.

Miller has started 77% of Buffalo's games. He is the undisputed starter.

I'd like to note that once again stats are not the end all be all. Have you watched all the games this year? Really, he's been great.

I've watched every game, that's the advantage of TiVo. If you actually think Dom has been great, I think you might have your TV tuned into the Vancouver games and have him confused with Luongo. Detroit is the team in Red and White. Dom is that guy who flops around like a fish out of water. He was played well enough to get some wins, and on occasion, like against the Ducks last game, been stand up.

All this bulls***ting aside, Dom is the goalie for the Wings in the playoffs. I want to see him gone after this year, regardless. He just won't cut it next year. We need to get better in net. If we have to spend a lil cash to do so, then salary's can be cut elsewhere.

Yes, Miller is the undisputed starter in Buffalo, as of two weeks before the trade of Biron to Philly. Before that it was anyone's net.

[sibiriak 84]

Once again, GAA is more of a team stat. It doesn't really reflect how good the goalie is or isn't. The Wings are inarguably the best defensive team in the league, this give Dom a lot of room to make mistakes, and get away with them.

When a goalie makes a mistake, no defense on earth can unmake the goal. Good team D can limit the scoring chances, but the goalie still has to stop the shots that get through. And Hasek does that, and does that almost without fail when the teams needs it the most. What Hasek would play like next season, is the question for the next year. Given his past actions, Dominik will be the first to say "I can't play anymore", if he won't be able to perform to his own high standards.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I've watched every game, that's the advantage of TiVo. If you actually think Dom has been great, I think you might have your TV tuned into the Vancouver games and have him confused with Luongo. Detroit is the team in Red and White. Dom is that guy who flops around like a fish out of water. He was played well enough to get some wins, and on occasion, like against the Ducks last game, been stand up.

All this bulls***ting aside, Dom is the goalie for the Wings in the playoffs. I want to see him gone after this year, regardless. He just won't cut it next year. We need to get better in net. If we have to spend a lil cash to do so, then salary's can be cut elsewhere.

Yes, Miller is the undisputed starter in Buffalo, as of two weeks before the trade of Biron to Philly. Before that it was anyone's net.

I am going to once again bring up the question:

Why are we talking about next year when where in the playoffs?

Seriously, the only reason we should be talking about next year is if we were totally out of it. But were going into the playoffs right now. We don't need all the Hasek negativity going on right now. He's our guy right now, like it or not.

Edited March 28, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

Yes, Miller is the undisputed starter in Buffalo, as of two weeks before the trade of Biron to Philly. Before that it was anyone's net.

Miller started 47 games to Biron's 19. Not much competition there if you ask me.

In review: Hasek has the same or close SV% and better GAA (which is as much a goalie stat as it is a team stat) to such quality tenders as Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen, and Marty Turco. He's been clutch, and has been counted on to make big saves and pulled that through. His wins didn't just come out of nowhere.

I guess you're just watching a different Hasek than I've been.

[imisssergei 0]

I am going to once again bring up the question:

Why are we talking about next year when where in the playoffs?

Seriously, the only reason we should be talking about next year is if we were totally out of it. But were going into the playoffs right now. We don't need all the Hasek negativity going on right now. He's our guy right now, like it or not.

Oh geeze, you are right coach. Sorry for disrupting the dressing room. I won't let it happen again. Thanks for helping me the team focus on the playoffs.

I'm sure Kenny Holland is on here 4 or 5 times a day getting ideas for the off season because he obviouslly totally incapable of doing his job.

And I hear that the Wings have this page up 24/7 in the dressing room so they know what the fans really think, and so they can get the inside track to all of Kenny's thoughts.

Don't like it don't read it!! No one is forcing you to join in!

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Let's be honest, both of those Cup years we could have still won if Holland strapped the pads back on and hopped in net.

Um, no.

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

Hasek didn't steal the series, and Osgood was second in voting, big deal. The second place guy is just an honorable mention, and on that team there could have been any number of guys who won the trophy. But they didn't. I am not denying the fact that it takes quality goaltending to win a Cup, rather that on those teams any average or better goaltender would have gotten the job done.

And no, what they have done since is not irrelevent THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!! Do you even make sense to you? My god, if you could get any ideas down in a coherent fashion, you may be able to come up with a solid argument. But you can't.

This is why you wouldn't cut it as a GM, or even a scout. You are thinking too much with your 'heart', adn not enough with facts. The facts, or numbers in this case, show that Dom is not that much better, if at all, than Osgood. Go look at the top 10 goalies in Sv%. You won't find Dom's name. You won't find Osgood's name. But you what you will find (ignoring the one game wonders) is a list of the top goalies this year. Detroit is in need of a quality number one, which Hasek is not. Seriously, he isn't even a number one!! He didn't even go on how many road trips? And how many back to back games did he sit just beacsuse?

You should get off the internet, I think I hear your mom calling you, it's dinner time sparky. Stop making yourself look foolish.

I would love to comment to why I think you're absolutely beyond wrong about Dom and Ozzie, but I really can't take your posts seriously so I'll save myself the typing.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Oh geeze, you are right coach. Sorry for disrupting the dressing room. I won't let it happen again. Thanks for helping me the team focus on the playoffs.

I'm sure Kenny Holland is on here 4 or 5 times a day getting ideas for the off season because he obviouslly totally incapable of doing his job.

And I hear that the Wings have this page up 24/7 in the dressing room so they know what the fans really think, and so they can get the inside track to all of Kenny's thoughts.

Don't like it don't read it!! No one is forcing you to join in!

You are seriously a jackass. Can't you be the least bit civil in your post?

If you want to be a troll, then f*** you. Go find somewhere else to do it.

[imisssergei 0]

You are seriously a jackass. Can't you be the least bit civil in your post?

If you want to be a troll, then f*** you. Go find somewhere else to do it.

HAH be civil....that's nice of you to consider that now, it's an OPEN FORUM. Like I said, don't like it don't read it. If you can't handle a bit of sarcasism maybe it's you who should post elsewhere!

[Draperfan 104]

who should part ways with the Wings

Bertuzzi

[Guest Crymson]

Next time you try to make an argument, try to make it clear what it is you are trying to argue for or against. If you watched Detroit's games, you would realize the style they play forces perimeter shots. So are you trying to say that Dom's Sv% is too high?

It's cute to see you trying to defend someone, even though you failed something awful.

Sorry I didn't catch this question the first time you asked. No, I don't believe it is required of a goalie to steal a series to be above average. And I won't even argue that in that season Dom was one of the elit goalies in the league. It was probably his last really good year, but nevertheless, it was a good year. And you are missing my point with the 'above avgerage goalie' comment. I simply meant that in those season, if you were to put a guy like say, Marc Denis (of today) in net for those teams, they still would have won. The Holland comment was sarcasism.

All of the goalies you just named, unlike Dom, have HUGE upsides. There is no way you can claim Dom is getting better, or even maintaining status quo. He is getting worse. Deal with it. He is not the goalie we need in net in the future.

Real nice rebuttal, champ.

Care to name those HUGE upsides? What, do they make key saves at key moments? Dom does. Are they hard workers? Perhaps. Do they come at a low salary? No. I fail to see what upsides you're talking about, with regard to Dom. Keep reaching.

We're all aware that human performance decreases with age. However, I think the vast majority of the NHL would disagree with your assertion that Hasek is anything but a spectacular goalie, even at his age.

HAH be civil....that's nice of you to consider that now, it's an OPEN FORUM. Like I said, don't like it don't read it. If you can't handle a bit of sarcasism maybe it's you who should post elsewhere!

Sarcasism must be the new annoying, huh?

I agree it's not right to bash other peoples` opinions. However, you started it, and beyond that it just became poster vs. poster. lol. This is a battle by proxy.

[WingsWingsWings 3]

Wow......

I had some ideas on what I was going to post here....

...but I just spent an hour reading all those arguing posts.....

...I can't remember what I was going to post, and I'm not sure if that is because my brain rotted out reading all that, or if I am just afraid of getting yelled at on here for my choice.....

....yup, mind is still fine..... must be scared.......

[FinRedWing 172]

With regards to save percentage: I assume you believe Ryan Miller, Kari Lehtonen, Marty Turco, and Vesa Toskala are also unfit to start for their clubs?

Well,if I was Tippett I'd be a bit concerned (Yeah,I know..Another Turco in the playoffs-joke).

Once again, GAA is more of a team stat. It doesn't really reflect how good the goalie is or isn't. The Wings are inarguably the best defensive team in the league, this give Dom a lot of room to make mistakes, and get away with them. Of the afore mentioned teams, Buffalo has allowed 224 goals, and SJ has allowed 186. Both teams for the most part of the season have used a two goalie system. And Toskala has been demoted to backup. Neither team is near what Detroit is defensivly.

So we must win the Cup then?

[Kp-Wings 3]

HAH be civil....that's nice of you to consider that now, it's an OPEN FORUM. Like I said, don't like it don't read it. If you can't handle a bit of sarcasism maybe it's you who should post elsewhere!

That is the lamest god damn thing I've ever heard. Oh, it's an open forum, so I guess I can post whatever I want, eh?

Just leave already. *******.

Edited March 29, 2007 by Kp-Wings