Brodeur's acheivement

[ultrapail 0]

78 games played of 81 is impressive in itself

Hasek - 15 NHL seasons - 791 games played (including playoffs) = 64.3% of possible games

Roy - 20 NHL seasons - 1276 games played (including playoffs) = 77.8% of possible games

Brodeur - 14 NHL seasons - 1043 games played (including playoffs) = 90.8% of possible games

90.8% is extremely impressive

[glasgowcelticwing 18]

hasek has. the man's never had a bad season. marty dropped like a sack of s*** the year the trap was temporarily abolished.

coinkidink? me thinks not. it's the trap and the scheme in new jersey, not the names on the jerseys. and hockeycrazy, read up a little bit. it was brought up he was classy. i pointed out how he isn't. before you give the traditional knee-jerk LGW "we love marty" speech, read.

if there's one thing more consistent than this site hating it's own team, it's loving brodeur.

oooo vvvverrr raaated. period.

We will just have to agree to disagree, Some people think he one of the best some don't, simple as that.

[cap20066 0]

just thought i'd spruce it up

notice it's always the people who just og by what a stat sheet says? or what someone else says? watch the guy. his 2 serious stops a night and 19 perimeter shots are not impressive in the big picture. they act like the system's easy to run so by george, everyone should be doing it! but they're not! cause....brodeur's good! team's have tried to mirror it. but it's a hard system to employ, and the devils have it down to a science, playing 4 defensemen per shift.

he's proof we hype players when we need them. he's curtis joseph playing for new jersey. his defense falls, so does he. he's never played through a bad team and never had the chips against him. it's not like we're saying he sucks, he doesn't. he's a great goalie. but still overrated.

people just keep following the herd.

I think I'm the only one who will agree with you.. in general.

[unkempt 0]

Hahahaha deduce.

Brodeur has got exactly 10 SO WINS in his stats which means that in Parent's world he would be 38 - 33 (OT wins I counted as wins since I do not know if there was overtime in Parent's time)

Wow, [/u]38 wins, very unimpressive by Parent's standards. [/u] And it does not even merit a laugh.

Edit: Grammar.

Edited April 7, 2007 by unkempt

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

hasek has. the man's never had a bad season. marty dropped like a sack of s*** the year the trap was temporarily abolished.

coinkidink? me thinks not. it's the trap and the scheme in new jersey, not the names on the jerseys. and hockeycrazy, read up a little bit. it was brought up he was classy. i pointed out how he isn't. before you give the traditional knee-jerk LGW "we love marty" speech, read.

if there's one thing more consistent than this site hating it's own team, it's loving brodeur.

oooo vvvverrr raaated. period.

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/pdispla...?pid%5B%5D=2187

Hasek's 95-96 stats...

GP 59

MIN 3417

Goals Against 161

GAA 2.83

W-L-T 22-30-6

Shots 1850

Save %0.920

Good save percentage, but quite the high GAA and a losing record. Very un-Hasek like. Yep, Hasek's never had a bad year ever.

Why don't you stop sounding idiotic and get off Brodeur's back whenever have time to stop humping Hasek's leg.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Brodeur has got exactly 10 SO WINS in his stats which means that in Parent's world he would be 38 - 33 (OT wins I counted as wins since I do not know if there was overtime in Parent's time)

Wow, [/u]38 wins, very unimpressive by Parent's standards. [/u] And it does not even merit a laugh.

Edit: Grammar.

Guess is some of the great goalies like Dryden, Sawchuk, or Tretiak played during these times with shootout wins/losses and got shootout wins, their stats would be over-inflated and it wouldn't be as impressive either...

[DraperFan MN 0]

lmao@the devils would be no where without him. right. those 2 scoring chances a night he faces & all those shots from the perimeter are certainly just carrying the devils. no. anyone worth a s*** would look like a million bucks in new jersey.

let's look at this for what it is. this isn't a coincidence. he did this right when we started handing out easier victories and the trap returned. that's why there's another guy who's challenging for the same record, and neither of them even have the best win percentage in the league.

I understand your argument Fairy boy, and that is why I can make the same argument and flip the table on ya. Would Parent be able to post 48 wins in today's NHL? You can't make that argument any more than I can for Brodeur posting the same amount of wins during Parent's era. Your argument is also flawed in that you make it sound as if Parent was playing out there by himself. Did he not benefit from the very strong Philly teams playing in front of him? Were there not a couple of consecutive Stanley Cup teams right around the time he set that record? Parent was great, no doubt, I'm not saying anything on the contrary.

Brodeur is without a doubt, the best goaltender of his era, and deserves this record. Regardless of how Brodeur won his games, he still had to go out and win them, and to use the term overrated in relation to Martin Brodeur conveys nothing more than your ignorance.

Good day.

[unkempt 0]

I understand your argument Fairy boy, and that is why I can make the same argument and flip the table on ya. Would Parent be able to post 48 wins in today's NHL? You can't make that argument any more than I can for Brodeur posting the same amount of wins during Parent's era. Your argument is also flawed in that you make it sound as if Parent was playing out there by himself. Did he not benefit from the very strong Philly teams playing in front of him? Were there not a couple of consecutive Stanley Cup teams right around the time he set that record? Parent was great, no doubt, I'm not saying anything on the contrary.

Brodeur is without a doubt, the best goaltender of his era, and deserves this record. Regardless of how Brodeur won his games, he still had to go out and win them, and to use the term overrated in relation to Martin Brodeur conveys nothing more than your ignorance.

Good day.

In principle, you cannot compare goalies/players even within the same era, because each of them plays/ed behind a different team which means different amount of help boosting/sinking their stats Not to speak about the fact that the game itself has changed over time dramatically.

Would Brodeur be as good as he is statistically if he played behind a crappy/mediocre team? Nobody knows and nobody ever will. Fact is Hasek played behind a below-average squad in Bufallo and got six Vezinas, 2 Harts, and once carried his team to game 6 of playoff finals.

This makes him better in my eyes. Better as far as quality goes. In one game. Brodeur as well as Roy, got an impressive amount of wins because they are/were durable. They ca/could play an unthincable amount of games over a long time. If durability is the most important and luck of playing behind a defensive team count as the key argument for best ever, then Brodeur indeed is or will be the best ever. In my eyes, though, even though there is no doubt they were/are also elite goalies they were not the best. Unless I see Brodeur play stellar behind a s***ty team, I am not convinced that he merits the title of "best ever".

PS. In principle all these threads comparing diffent players are a bit silly because of all the uncontrollable variables . Nevertheless we all like them and won't stop. Removing Brodeurs SO wins is a different thing altogether. It is a perk Parent did not enjoy, which is why it should not count against Parent's result.

Edit. Grammar and "the same era" for "one era"

Edited April 7, 2007 by unkempt

[unkempt 0]

Brodeur is without a doubt, the best goaltender of his era, and deserves this record. Regardless of how Brodeur won his games, he still had to go out and win them, and to use the term overrated in relation to Martin Brodeur conveys nothing more than your ignorance.

Good day.

If the going rate is "Brodeur is the best ever/best of his era" than he is indeed overrated. As on today, Brodeur and Hasek have almost identical GAA 2.21 vs. 2.20. Their Sv% is quite a different matter - Brodeur (behind a much better team than the Sabers, mind you) has had only ONE season when his Sv% was better than Hasek's AVERAGE throughout his career. Brodeur 96/97 had .927, Hasek's average is .923 with multiple season of .930 and more (five).

No metric is really reliable and tells the whole story, so we can keep arguing this back and forth until hell freezes over, but for the sake of the quality of this discussion I would suggest you start using some hard data.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Brodie vs. Luongo

Here is a nice article about Brodeur and his "rival," Luongo. I believe Roberto could eclipse Brodeur in years to come. It will be interesting to watch, assuming our beloved sport survives Bettmanization. It will be interesting also, to see if Luongo can rival Hasek's achievements with a similar team to the one Dom backstopped for 9 years. Canucks are the Sabres of the West... small market, under the radar, not so talented but they want to win. We probably won't see the actual comparison one-on-one, due to the fact that I doubt Luongo will stay in Vancouver for the next decade.

I've avoided this thread because numbers only say so much, and you can manipulate them to present whatever aspect of an argument needed to "prove" a point. Hasek is the most recognized and influential goaltender of his era -- more Vezinas (Plante has one more, with seven), only goalie ever to win back to back Hart/Vezinas, Gold medal on a Cinderella team ... I could go on with lots more examples, but much to your collective relief, I won't bother.

That doesn't mean Brodeur isn't great, but he's certainly not better than Dom or Patty Roy, nor is Brodeur the greatest "ever." Too many variables, as several posters have mentioned. Mathematically, you stand to win the most games if you're a talented goalie and you play virtually every game. Brodeur's back up has played 5 games this season. Hasek used to do that, too, in his hey-day with Buffalo. He didn't win the most games due to the team to which he dedicated what were arguably his best years being not the greatest. Dom dragged the team along with him and won games all by himself, night after night. If you don't believe me, all I can say is you didn't watch Buffalo play in the '90s.

Of course, it's all subjective, as we've said already. I don't agree that Brodeur is the classiest guy on Earth either, but I suppose there are cases to be made in pretty much every player's career where someone could criticize something they said or did. Except for Stevie Y, maybe. Does that mean they aren't great players? Nope. If whatever they did or said off the ice didn't harm the team, then I really don't care. Brodeur's legend is partly in his own head, but who could blame him for that, either? I think all great players have to know they are great, that's part of who they are.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Martin Brodeur is one of the most consistent and technical sound goalies ever to play the game.

period.

Indeed. I see Marty as the goalie equivalent of Lids. Flawless technical domination of his position day in and day out.

[stevie for president 42]

There is no mistake that Brodeur's save look "easy" That has a lot to with cutting off the angle, not committing to the shot too early, being square with the shooter, and controlling rebounds. Nothing against Hasek, i dont think anyone can deny that he is either the best goalie since 1990 or the 2nd best(behind roy), but he was not fundamentally sound. He made incredible saves because he was caught out of position so many times. and again, thats taking nothing away from him, because ive seen brodeur out of position and not even attempt a save, yet hasek made a name for himself making that save. And I hear what everyone says about the SO. I think if Parent had SO than his record would be untouchable, except if Roy had SO's too. But, having said that, Brodeur did break the record under the current rules, and you can't knock him for that. And his team is NOT GOOD. They were until the lockout, but they lost two of the best defensemen in the NHL, they have poor offense outside of their top line, and despite this, they are atop the Atlantic. Brodeur deserves the Hart, IMO. Brodeur and Luongo both single-handedly won their respective divisions with teams that otherwise wouldnt be looking at a playoff spot.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

If everyone were going around saying Brodeur was the greatest goaltender ever, then the whining about being overrated might be justified.

But he is easily one of the greatest goaltenders of this era.

[Houdini 0]

If everyone were going around saying Brodeur was the greatest goaltender ever, then the whining about being overrated might be justified.

But he is easily one of the greatest goaltenders of this era.

Brodeur is definitely one of the best of his era, no doubt.

But going back to his record wins, it's nothing impressive, IMO. Heck, he's played in 78 games this season! That's just a winning percentage of .615%, which is pretty good, but not spectacular. Hasek's winning percentage this year is .678%.

Throw in the SO wins as others have mentioned, and it's makes his "record wins" even less impressive.

But still, as mentioned above he's a great goaltender.

- Houdini

[Drake_Marcus 890]

Well you have to admit- Marty's ability to fool everyone on the world and allstar stage into thinking he's great is pretty impressive. Add to that the mass retirement of Jersey's defensive core and you have one of the single greatest sporting capers of all time. {That or he's actually a fantastic goalie}

[DraperFan MN 0]

In principle, you cannot compare goalies/players even within the same era, because each of them plays/ed behind a different team which means different amount of help boosting/sinking their stats Not to speak about the fact that the game itself has changed over time dramatically.

That is exactly my point. Brodeur and Parent have different factors that benefited and challenged each of them. Comparison is pointless. The amount of games could be argued as a benefit or a detriment, especially with the different travel schedules for each player. Rules, speed, skill, and physicality of the game each played in are also different.

As far as comparing Dom, Roy, and Brodeur....that is a different argument altogether. An interesting argument I might add.

Well you have to admit- Marty's ability to fool everyone on the world and allstar stage into thinking he's great is pretty impressive. Add to that the mass retirement of Jersey's defensive core and you have one of the single greatest sporting capers of all time. {That or he's actually a fantastic goalie}

Good point, think about that blueline they have this year. Rafalski didn't play a good portion of the year.

But going back to his record wins, it's nothing impressive, IMO. Heck, he's played in 78 games this season! That's just a winning percentage of .615%, which is pretty good, but not spectacular. Hasek's winning percentage this year is .678%.

Must be nice to have just a slightly higher winning percentage when you have had to play in 20 or so less games, and have the first or second night of a back to back off all season long. You can't compare those numbers in my opinion, and you can't compare the defensive corps for each team either. Hasek hasn't had anywhere near the season Brodeur has had.

[glasgowcelticwing 18]

I can't understand why there are so many people that think Brodeur is overrated. You guys that don't like him, are you trying to tell me you wouldn't want him on the wings roster?

[DraperFan MN 0]

If the going rate is "Brodeur is the best ever/best of his era" than he is indeed overrated. As on today, Brodeur and Hasek have almost identical GAA 2.21 vs. 2.20. Their Sv% is quite a different matter - Brodeur (behind a much better team than the Sabers, mind you) has had only ONE season when his Sv% was better than Hasek's AVERAGE throughout his career. Brodeur 96/97 had .927, Hasek's average is .923 with multiple season of .930 and more (five).

No metric is really reliable and tells the whole story, so we can keep arguing this back and forth until hell freezes over, but for the sake of the quality of this discussion I would suggest you start using some hard data.

Hasek - 15 NHL seasons - 791 games played (including playoffs) = 64.3% of possible games

Roy - 20 NHL seasons - 1276 games played (including playoffs) = 77.8% of possible games

Brodeur - 14 NHL seasons - 1043 games played (including playoffs) = 90.8% of possible games

I thought the stats offered up already, including the one ultrapail gave above, said a lot, and remember, stats for Dom include 01/02 & 03/04 seasons in Detroit, 05/06 season in Ottawa, and this season in Detroit. That is about 25% of his career playing with fantastic teams with top talent. It's not like all of the teams in Buffalo were horrible either, there was a Cup appearance in there.

I'm fine with offering up hard data, but like you said, no metric is really reliable

[Houdini 0]

Must be nice to have just a slightly higher winning percentage when you have had to play in 20 or so less games, and have the first or second night of a back to back off all season long. You can't compare those numbers in my opinion, and you can't compare the defensive corps for each team either. Hasek hasn't had anywhere near the season Brodeur has had.

Hasek's had a better winning percentage, and his shutout percentage is VERY close to Brodeur's impressive percentage. Hasek's save percentage isn't as good as Brodeur's, though. But overall, yes, Brodeur's had a better season. But Hasek is 42 years old and way past his prime compared to Brodeur's 34 years of age, and yet his percentages are on par with Brodeur's.

As for the 20 games less played, I don't think there's a goalie out there that would NOT want to play every game possible. Heck every other player on the team plays back to back. But most teams need to get their backups in some games so they stay sharp if they are needed, whereas New Jersey doesn't seem to care. Heck, there's a lot of players that play every game a season for a number of seasons straight, but that doesn't make them a great player. Just means they don't succumb to injury/sickness like other players.

Playing 78 games is impressive in that he can stay injury free playing that many games. But if you take the number of games played into consideration with his shutouts and wins this year, then his stats aren't that impressive.

- Houdini

Edited April 7, 2007 by Houdini

[DraperFan MN 0]

Hasek's had a better winning percentage, and his shutout percentage is VERY close to Brodeur's impressive percentage. Hasek's save percentage isn't as good as Brodeur's, though. But overall, yes, Brodeur's had a better season. But Hasek is 42 years old and way past his prime compared to Brodeur's 34 years of age, and yet his percentages are on par with Brodeur's.

As for the 20 games less played, I don't think there's a goalie out there that would NOT want to play every game possible. Heck every other player on the team plays back to back. But most teams need to get their backups in some games so they stay sharp if they are needed, whereas New Jersey doesn't seem to care. Heck, there's a lot of players that play every game a season for a number of seasons straight, but that doesn't make them a great player. Just means they don't succumb to injury/sickness like other players.

Playing 78 games is impressive in that he can stay injury free playing that many games. But if you take the number of games played into consideration with his shutouts and wins this year, then his stats aren't that impressive.

- Houdini

Are you a Hasek apologist? Just asking...

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Brodeur is definitely one of the best of his era, no doubt.

But going back to his record wins, it's nothing impressive, IMO. Heck, he's played in 78 games this season! That's just a winning percentage of .615%, which is pretty good, but not spectacular. Hasek's winning percentage this year is .678%.

Throw in the SO wins as others have mentioned, and it's makes his "record wins" even less impressive.

But still, as mentioned above he's a great goaltender.

- Houdini

and a workhorse. His winning percentage is lower because they start him so damn much.

Even though he's proven himself to be pretty durable, I still think New Jersey should rest him more before the playoffs.

[Houdini 0]

Are you a Hasek apologist? Just asking...

Na, just using a pretty good 42 year old goaltender as a comparison to show why I don't think winning 48 games in his circumstance is THAT fantastic. As I said, Brodeur is a great goaltender, but considering the number of games he's played you'd almost expect him to win that many.

It's like how Hasek has a 2.05 GAA, which sounds fantastic in today's NHL, but if you look at how many shots he gets a game you'll see his save percentage really isn't THAT great. It's a more telling statistic than GAA.

- Houdini

[DraperFan MN 0]

Na, just using a pretty good 42 year old goaltender as a comparison to show why I don't think winning 48 games in his circumstance is THAT fantastic. As I said, Brodeur is a great goaltender, but considering the number of games he's played you'd almost expect him to win that many.

It's like how Hasek has a 2.05 GAA, which sounds fantastic in today's NHL, but if you look at how many shots he gets a game you'll see his save percentage really isn't THAT great. It's a more telling statistic than GAA.

- Houdini

I guess I just see the "amount of games" from a different angle. They guy has played infinitely more over the same amount of seasons, and therefore his body has had to deal with much more wear and tear. Yes, he has had more opportunity for success, but that also means he has had more opportunity for failure than Hasek. Dom will never even come close to the amount of games played that Brodeur has under his belt , therefore I don't think their career statistics should be compared.

Edited April 8, 2007 by DraperFan MN

[DraperFan MN 0]

i havn't even read the replies beyond the last few. no point. for everytime someone even slightly discredits brodeur, there's a member of the herd there to jump all over it. f*** it...

Let me just point out there is a HUGE difference between slightly discrediting (your previous posts do not convey the intention of slightly discrediting Brodeur) someone and labeling the same person overrated. I understand the arguments some have made here, I don't necessarily agree, but I do understand. But calling Brodeur overrated is laughable.

[eva unit zero 271]

Na, just using a pretty good 42 year old goaltender as a comparison to show why I don't think winning 48 games in his circumstance is THAT fantastic. As I said, Brodeur is a great goaltender, but considering the number of games he's played you'd almost expect him to win that many.

It's like how Hasek has a 2.05 GAA, which sounds fantastic in today's NHL, but if you look at how many shots he gets a game you'll see his save percentage really isn't THAT great. It's a more telling statistic than GAA.

- Houdini

48 wins is impressive.

Sure, not as impressive as Osgood's 39 win campaign-in only 50 games, mind you-but impressive nonetheless. You have to remember--Brodeur has played 78 games this season. If he plays tomorrow, he ties Grant Fuhr's NHL-record 79 games played. And given the fact that he, unlike Fuhr, is at or near the top of every category, it shows just how dominant Brodeur has been this year.