105 replies to this topic

[RedWings Gone Wild]

I can understand it taking a while to pick out a date and coordinate with everyone, but they still could've announced it right away they were going to retire the #19 and the date is still to be determined.

It's a marketing thing. Everyone knew Yzerman's number was going up there, but the team waited to try and set up a meaningful day where they can make an event out of it and sell some extra tickets. The wait wasn't a sign that there was internal debate among the Red Wings staff, they were just trying to find the best day. The fact that Yzerman's number was retired his first year in the land of retirement shows that he was a given.

As far as Ozzie is concerned, 400 wins isn't enough anymore. Remember how the 80s were for assist and goal scorers? Well thats how the new millenium is for goaltender wins. Now that you have guys playing 70+ games per season, and posting high save percentages, you're going to have a lot of goalies eclipsing 3-400 wins. Osgood has had some memorable seasons, but that's about it. He has never a dominant goalie (and don't let 96 fool u, Detroit was unbeatable that year in every aspect, all Osgood had to do was not screw up bigtime). Winning only one Cup as a starter, and having 400+ wins, isn't enough for the HOF, especially if the majority of your career was in the stat-boosting Detroit system. Legace was 37-8-3 in 05-06, that's impressive if you're only looking at statistics too.

[eva unit zero]

I don't have anything against Ozzie personally, but you're looking too much at the stats, and not enough at common sense. How can you really in your heart believe that the HHOF voters are going to induct Osgood? Also, Cujo is not a lock for the HHOF, because he's never won the cup. Likewise, I believe that Rogie Vachon hasn't been inducted yet, and he was a betteer goalie in his career than Osgood was. Yes, Ozzie won the cup, but I think that the Wings won it despite of him and not because of him.

Ozzie wouldn't have been second in Smythe voting had it been in spite of him. Ozzie had easily the weakest group of skaters of the three recent Wings Cups teams, yet they had little difficulty hoisting the Cup.

Vachon may or may not have been better; Vachon has comparable achievements to Ozzie in that he was 'almost' named best goalie, and he won the Vezina in an era when it was awarded as the Jennings is now; Ozzie has a Jennings and almost was named best goalie. Major difference? Vachon never won a Cup as the outright starter, the closest he ever came was splitting duty with Gump Worsley in 1969. Also, Vachon was only once among the GAA leaders, finishing second in 74-75 in the only season he would ever post numbers below 2.48 GAA. Osgood has been among the league leaders in GAA (and save percentage) several times, and only Vachon's best season is better than Osgood's career average.

Osgood will retire with more wins than Vachon, and Osgood has never had a losing season while Vachon had three. Ozzie has won 30 games six times while Vachon did it only twice despite playing three more seasons (so far) with about the same number of average games per season? Note: 94-95 season counted as .57 of a season for this purpose. I think Ozzie is probably more likely than Vachon to end up in the Hall because he has achieved all of the same things and then some. Last season was also the first year during Osgood's career that he failed to win 20 games, or in the case of the 94-95 lockout season, 11.4 games. That is a mark that Vachon failed to reach three times in his career, even accounting for total team games played being less than 82.

[RedWings Gone Wild]

Ozzie wouldn't have been second in Smythe voting had it been in spite of him. Ozzie had easily the weakest group of skaters of the three recent Wings Cups teams, yet they had little difficulty hoisting the Cup.

Ok, weakest group of skaters of the three recent cup wins? lol... not sure about that one. Vladdy and Vernon were the only big differences from the previous team. Osgood's accomplishment are greeted with indifference due to the fact that he has never proven himself without a good team behind him, nor has he been a consistent starter, or a multi-cup winner. Was Osgood the reason Detroit won the cup? No, you can't honestly say he was because the same team won it the year before without him (and won it again without him in 2002). Statistics are irrelivant when comparing Vachon and Osgood because of the difference in eras, 4.00 gaa was practically the norm in the late 70s and 80s. However, Osgood may be more likely to get in than Vachon, but that doesn't change the fact that neither of them will get in. Heck, Vernon won't even get in and he's had a much more relivant career than Osgood (he won multiple cups as a starter, a conn smythe, Jennings, multi-all star games, and was always a starter).

Also, as long as you're obsessed with stats, and think them the end all prover of points: would you care to argue that Osgood is as good as Hasek? They have nearly the same number of wins, and Hasek has played longer. Hasek has also had losing seasons, and both have had the same # of cup wins as a stater. So, by your logic, Osgood must be the better of the two. Hmmm.. not quite sure why we bothered signing Hasek then.

[eva unit zero]

Ok, weakest group of skaters of the three recent cup wins? lol... not sure about that one. Vladdy and Vernon were the only big differences from the previous team. Osgood's accomplishment are greeted with indifference due to the fact that he has never proven himself without a good team behind him, nor has he been a consistent starter, or a multi-cup winner. Was Osgood the reason Detroit won the cup? No, you can't honestly say he was because the same team won it the year before without him (and won it again without him in 2002). Statistics are irrelivant when comparing Vachon and Osgood because of the difference in eras, 4.00 gaa was practically the norm in the late 70s and 80s. However, Osgood may be more likely to get in than Vachon, but that doesn't change the fact that neither of them will get in. Heck, Vernon won't even get in and he's had a much more relivant career than Osgood (he won multiple cups as a starter, a conn smythe, Jennings, multi-all star games, and was always a starter).

Also, as long as you're obsessed with stats, and think them the end all prover of points: would you care to argue that Osgood is as good as Hasek? They have nearly the same number of wins, and Hasek has played longer. Hasek has also had losing seasons, and both have had the same # of cup wins as a stater. So, by your logic, Osgood must be the better of the two. Hmmm.. not quite sure why we bothered signing Hasek then.

Hasek also has six Vezina trophies as the league's best goaltender, and two Hart trophies. While Osgood may have comparable wins and Cups to Hasek, he is blown away by Hasek's accomplishments individually. Also, basically the same team? Let's look at something; each team's top-six defensemen, arranged by defensive ability. Norris contenders in bold. Defensemen who would retire within two seasons are underlined. Rookies are marked with an *.
97: Konstantinov, Lidstrom, Rouse, Fetisov, Murphy, Ward
98: Lidstrom, Rouse, Fetisov, Macoun, Murphy, Eriksson*
02: Chelios, Lidstrom, Fischer, Olausson, Duchesne, Dandenault

I don't think there's even any argument about this. The 98 and 97 teams had the same forwards, except the replacement of Tomas Sandstrom with rookie Tomas Holmstrom. The 02 team had easily the best forward corp of the three. How one could argue that the 98 team was anything but the weakest group of skaters of the three teams is baffling. The 98 team had the weakest defense, losing a Norris contender in Konstantinov and bringing in a washed up depth defenseman like Macoun to fill his shoes?

[OsGOD]

Well enough about Ozzie, all I heard about was how he would never comeback to the wings and hearing he will never get into the HOF... not at all surprising they are the same people, needlesstosay watching him in a wings jersey again it's hard to take their POV without a salt block. Only time will tell.

as for Fedorov!

Edited by OsGOD, 20 September 2007 - 08:34 AM.

[RedWings Gone Wild]

My point with the Hasek/Osgood comparison was that a cup win and 300-400 wins doesn't mean Osgood will get in the hall of fame.

Also: Lidstrom, Rouse, Fetisov, Macoun, Murphy, Eriksson

That's 3 hall of famers, and the rest of them are nothing to laugh at. That's a better top 6 than most teams have ever had. Was it a weaker defence than the year before? Sure, but they were still one of the best defences in the league paired with one of the top offences.. That adds up to easily the best team in the league. So, that's not exactly a strong defence on Osgood. NEWHO, enough of this, onward to other discussions.

[OsGOD]

My point with the Hasek/Osgood comparison was that a cup win and 300-400 wins doesn't mean Osgood will get in the hall of fame.

Also: Lidstrom, Rouse, Fetisov, Macoun, Murphy, Eriksson

That's 3 hall of famers, and the rest of them are nothing to laugh at. That's a better top 6 than most teams have ever had. Was it a weaker defence than the year before? Sure, but they were still one of the best defences in the league paired with one of the top offences.. That adds up to easily the best team in the league. So, that's not exactly a strong defence on Osgood. NEWHO, enough of this, onward to other discussions.

IDK I laughed pretty hard at Rouse, Eriksson and the human Pylon Murph... I continue to laugh at Murph in the press box. So they are pretty laughable.

[eva unit zero]

My point with the Hasek/Osgood comparison was that a cup win and 300-400 wins doesn't mean Osgood will get in the hall of fame.

Osgood will get in.

That adds up to easily the best team in the league. So, that's not exactly a strong defence on Osgood. NEWHO, enough of this, onward to other discussions.

And yet, the argument that Osgood's team was weaker than Vernon's team or Hasek's team is 100% accurate, which was my point. I didn't say Ozzie wasn't on the best team i nthe league. I said Ozzie had the worst skaters of three Wings Cup teams. That's like me saying 'Last year's Thrashers were the best Thrashers team ever' and you responding with 'The Thrashers did jack squat in the playoffs, how could they be the best team in the league?'

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile]

NO

[Curban915]

NO

Enought said

[vinnyfan4life]

No he shouldn't. For one, Fedorov left on his own terms. I would understand if the Wings got rid of him, ala McCarty, but he left on his own, for no real good reason. Secondly he was a very moody player when he played here. I know he was a great player here and all, but I really don't feel his number should be retired. Just my thoughts.

i agree and plus he left cause he wanted more money to play for the wings and they wouldnt give it to him ..right there means he wasnt good enough... plus he wasnt a leader of the team he only got them goals and assist cause of the playeres he played wtih to set him up

[eva unit zero]

i agree and plus he left cause he wanted more money to play for the wings and they wouldnt give it to him ..right there means he wasnt good enough... plus he wasnt a leader of the team he only got them goals and assist cause of the playeres he played wtih to set him up

Fedorov left because he was offered a five year deal, and when he showed up to sign it there was a four year deal presented to him. The offers Holland made for Fedorov got progressively smaller as the negotiation went on, and nothing past the first offer had a fifth year until Fedorov was offered a deal by Anaheim. Who did Fedorov play with that set him up? Slava Kozlov? Doug Brown? Igor Larionov? Martin Lapointe? None of those guys were even remotely as good as Fedorov.

[LORD STANLEY OF PRESTON]

As a RED WING, Sergei Fedorov has more goals and assist then Ted Lindsey and Sid Abel.
He helped the wings to 3 STANLY CUPS.
The only Red wings (Howe, Yzerman,  Delvecchio) who have more goals then him have had their numbers retired.


So what do you guys think?

[C-Dub]

While I (mostly) appreciated Fedorov's years in the Detroit lineup, and recognize that he was an extrodinarily talanted player, I don't think his number is worthy of hanging next to the numbers already up in the rafters. The way I see it, the retirement of a number is the biggest honor a team can give you. You made such an impact on the fans and the organization, they do not want anyone else ever wearing the number because it is forever associated with you. I wouldn't mind seeing someone else wear the 91, I don't automatically associated Fedorov with it. Now another #19, I do not want to skate in a Red Wings jersey.

Lidstrom for sure will be next but I doubt Osgood. Though he does deserve it and certainly has the stats to back it up. If he wins another cup and retires from Detroit, it may happen.

[Kira]

The only way he should be in there is as a paying customer.

[SouthernWingsFan]

Quite simply, no. And this doesn't mean I dislike Fedorov.

If he played his entire career (or just about his entire career) here, didn't leave under questionable terms (please let us not get into who is to blame in the whole ordeal, I don't care), then I'd say perhaps so.

[HOCKEY MATTERS]

no

[Swede40]

Is that a joke?!?!

I just can't believe how red wings org and the fans have deminized Federov for simply wanted to leave. Last time I checked Lions fans still have Sanders in the heart! Its as if the fans are nullying everything Federov has accomphished for doing something illegal.

I can't believe how many Red Wings fans spell Fedorov wrong.

[Swede40]

If Fedorov gets his retired then you'll have to retire Shanahan, Osgood and everyone else who was part of the 3 Stanley Cups.

[eva unit zero]

If Fedorov gets his retired then you'll have to retire Shanahan, Osgood and everyone else who was part of the 3 Stanley Cups.

If you retire Fedorov, you have to retire Osgood. It stops there.
Shanahan was a big piece, but he was a hired gun. He spent nine years in Detroit and many of them were good, but there are players who have spent more good years than Shanahan with the Wings and not had their number retired. Ullman and Goodfellow to name a couple. Fedorov was once the league's top forward as a Wing, and was a home grown product. Shanahan cannot claim either of those distinctions. In fact, every player with a retired number in Detroit was at one point the best at his position (F/D/G) in a Detroit uniform.

But the next most deserving player of jersey retirement who has not yet received it after Lidstrom is Osgood. That's how you should gauge your feelings on Fedorov. Do you think Ozzie deserves it? If the answer is no, then it has to be no for Fedorov as well. Ozzie was also once the top goalie in the league. Beyond Osgood, the only other recent players who have been the top F/D/G as a Wing are Konstantinov and Coffey.