Samsonov traded to Chicago

[Kp-Wings 3]

Well, Sergei is slowly getting closer and closer to Detroit !

If he falls on his face again this season, he'll probably go back to Russia. He's already made himself look really bad with his "I regret ever signing with Montreal" comments back in March.

I don't see the Wings ever wanting him ever. Maybe the summer of 2005 Ken Holland would have wanted him, but we're seeing a new and improved Ken Holland, one that looks to be finally addressing the needed issues, which doesn't include Samsonov. Though if he brings back Kozlov, he might be edgeing his way back. No room for panic... yet.

[Production Line 1]

What happened to Samsonov??? Looked strong on the ice and was looking like a killer sniper...What happened???

[Henkka 0]

What happened to Samsonov??? Looked strong on the ice and was looking like a killer sniper...What happened???

He lost Joe Thornton.

[glasgowcelticwing 18]

I'm hoping that Samsanov regain's some sort of form and does a good job for the Hawks. I've alway's rated him as a descent player that's just lost his way.

[eva unit zero 271]

He lost Joe Thornton.

Samsonov was good before Thornton--they were drafted the same year and Samsonov won the Calder the next and outscored Thornton by 40 points. Thornton only outscored Samsonov once in their first five seasons. The next time was their sixth season, when Samsonov scored 11 points in 8 games and was injured most of the year, while Thornton scored 102 in 77. In ten seasons in the league together, each has outscored the other five times. Considering Samsonov outscored Thornton on the same team in each of his four most productive seasons, it's hard to say Thornton was the reason for Samsonov's brilliance.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Nobody is saying he's some total SUPERSTAR. It's just that when people say the term, "sucks ass". Thats something that should be reserved for Deverblow or another low-teered NHLer. But the fact is, Samsonov has been a solid player throughout his career, and he has ONE bad season, and now he just sucks balls. Im not saying he's some amazing player, what Im saying is, he certainly doesnt suck ass because of one bad season with one team. And just watch, I GUARUNTEE he has a better season with crappy Chicago, then he did with the Canadiens. Oh and I would take Samsonov over Williams any day of the week and 3 times on Sunday. And so would any other GM in the NHL.

It isn't because he only had one bad season. It's that he's only had 2 seasons worth talking about.

And you are wrong about NHL GM's taking Samsonov of WIlly. There wasn't a single GM who wanted to pick up Samsonov for FREE last season. This was merely salary moving for both teams. Chicago made the move because they had some dead weight to get ride of, and there is a slight chance Samsonov could put up 50 or so points. BTW, he averages 45 points per season over his career. Montreal obviously just wanted to reduce it's cap hit.

Open your eyes, Samsonov hasn't ever been a legit first liner.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Samsonov was good before Thornton--they were drafted the same year and Samsonov won the Calder the next and outscored Thornton by 40 points. Thornton only outscored Samsonov once in their first five seasons. The next time was their sixth season, when Samsonov scored 11 points in 8 games and was injured most of the year, while Thornton scored 102 in 77. In ten seasons in the league together, each has outscored the other five times. Considering Samsonov outscored Thornton on the same team in each of his four most productive seasons, it's hard to say Thornton was the reason for Samsonov's brilliance.

If Samsonov was so good before Thornton, then why was he taken AFTER Thornton in the draft?

Winning the Calder doesn't mean jack. Jim Carey won the Vezina, where is he now?

Look at the stats, they don't lie. BTW, it has been 10 years since Thornton and Samsonov came into the league, but only 9 seasons.

Thornton averages 73 points per season to Samsonov's 46.

The reason why Thornton didn't do much with Samsonov is because Samsonov isn't that great. He isn't a goal scorer. Thornton is a playmaker, and he needed to get a true first line winger to play with. He got that in San Jose.

To even thing that Samsonov is half the player that Joey is, well, that's just carzy to put it tactfully.

I've said it before, Samsonov is a decent player. No way is he worth $3.5, I don't think he is really worth $1.5 but that's just me.

One last thing, when has Samsonov broken 100 pts? For that matter, when has he hit 55 points without Thornton? Samsonov is a good player when he is surrounded by better players. He can't do it by himself. He isn't that good.

Edited June 17, 2007 by BringHomeTheCup!

[Guest DetroitIan]

Open your eyes, Samsonov hasn't ever been a legit first liner.

Open your eyes, no one ever said he was a bad ass first liner. We're saying that he doesnt suck ass like some people are saying. He has been a solid player throughout his career. That doesnt mean he's a first liner. It means he can contribute and help his squad win. And if your saying more GMs would take J. Will over Samsonov, thats just laughable. If you're gonna talk about Samsonov never hitting high point totals, take a look at Williams, he hasnt done jack s*** compared to Samsonov. So unless you're talking about salary, you're way off. If we're talking skill alone, not one GM would take Williams over Sergei. Not one.

[eva unit zero 271]

One last thing, when has Samsonov broken 100 pts? For that matter, when has he hit 55 points without Thornton?

He hit 75 without Thornton in 2000-01. They first played together consistently in 2001-02.

For the record:

Apart:

Thornton 97-98 to 00-01: 289 GP, 79g-100a-179pt

Samsonov 97-98 to 00-01: 319 GP, 95g-123a-218pt

Together:

Thornton 01-02 to 03-04: 220 GP, 81g-161a-242pt

Samsonov 01-02 to 03-04: 140 GP, 51g-70a-121pt

Seems to me like Thornton gained a whole heck of a lot more than Samsonov did from the pairing. Hard to make the argument that Samsonov only did well because of Thornton when four of his six best seasons were before he played regular shifts with Big Joe, and in another he scored better after he was traded to Edmonton. Only once did Samsonov score more than 18 goals or 40 points WITH Thornton, compared to five times without him. It was also the only season Samsonov played more than 60 games with Thornton; he led the Bruins in scoring that year.

Samsonov didn't do too well for Montreal, and that was predictable because his style and skill set does not mesh with Montreal's defensive system. Samsonov was a bad signing to begin with, because the same amount of money could have been spent on a player who fit the system much better. He should be back in the 55-65 point range or better with Chicago. Any combination of Havlat, Ruutu, Williams, Bourque, Sharp, and Toews would be an upgrade over the linemates he had in Montreal, and Samsonov will likely see more prime ice.

[Guest DetroitIan]

He hit 75 without Thornton in 2000-01. They first played together consistently in 2001-02.

For the record:

Apart:

Thornton 97-98 to 00-01: 289 GP, 79g-100a-179pt

Samsonov 97-98 to 00-01: 319 GP, 95g-123a-218pt

Together:

Thornton 01-02 to 03-04: 220 GP, 81g-161a-242pt

Samsonov 01-02 to 03-04: 140 GP, 51g-70a-121pt

Seems to me like Thornton gained a whole heck of a lot more than Samsonov did from the pairing. Hard to make the argument that Samsonov only did well because of Thornton when four of his six best seasons were before he played regular shifts with Big Joe, and in another he scored better after he was traded to Edmonton. Only once did Samsonov score more than 18 goals or 40 points WITH Thornton, compared to five times without him. It was also the only season Samsonov played more than 60 games with Thornton; he led the Bruins in scoring that year.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Good player or not , hes not a top liner. Hes a second liner at best, I wouldnt even put him on my 2nd line.

I dont want him on the wings , I hope the Hawks continue to get smaller and smaller and the wings get bigger and bigger , so not only can we beat them up on the Scoreboard , but we can also beat them up physically.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Open your eyes, no one ever said he was a bad ass first liner. We're saying that he doesnt suck ass like some people are saying. He has been a solid player throughout his career. That doesnt mean he's a first liner. It means he can contribute and help his squad win. And if your saying more GMs would take J. Will over Samsonov, thats just laughable. If you're gonna talk about Samsonov never hitting high point totals, take a look at Williams, he hasnt done jack s*** compared to Samsonov. So unless you're talking about salary, you're way off. If we're talking skill alone, not one GM would take Williams over Sergei. Not one.

That's funny. If Samsonov is so much more highly regarded than J Willy, why did EVERY GM pass on Samsonov twice last season? And why was there only 1 GM interested in him in the offseason? J Willy isn't a great player, but at least he shows up. If it's not on the score sheet, it's in his physcial game. I'm not saying GM's were lining up to get him, but I remember several occasions which Kenny talked about moving him.

[Opie 308]

Got to say I saw a lot of Samsonov when he was in Boston, he is a water bug, a floater. He had great speed and pretty decent hands, but he has been declining for the past 4-5 years. He is a solid third liner, comparable to Whitney when he was in Detroit. And even in his prime he was just a real good player. He got lucky if you look back through the years he had some damn good centers. Thornton to name one!!!!

Not that I am, but if I were an NHL GM I would take Willy over Samsonov last year this year and every year going forward.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

He hit 75 without Thornton in 2000-01. They first played together consistently in 2001-02.

For the record:

Apart:

Thornton 97-98 to 00-01: 289 GP, 79g-100a-179pt

Samsonov 97-98 to 00-01: 319 GP, 95g-123a-218pt

Together:

Thornton 01-02 to 03-04: 220 GP, 81g-161a-242pt

Samsonov 01-02 to 03-04: 140 GP, 51g-70a-121pt

Seems to me like Thornton gained a whole heck of a lot more than Samsonov did from the pairing. Hard to make the argument that Samsonov only did well because of Thornton when four of his six best seasons were before he played regular shifts with Big Joe, and in another he scored better after he was traded to Edmonton. Only once did Samsonov score more than 18 goals or 40 points WITH Thornton, compared to five times without him. It was also the only season Samsonov played more than 60 games with Thornton; he led the Bruins in scoring that year.

Samsonov didn't do too well for Montreal, and that was predictable because his style and skill set does not mesh with Montreal's defensive system. Samsonov was a bad signing to begin with, because the same amount of money could have been spent on a player who fit the system much better. He should be back in the 55-65 point range or better with Chicago. Any combination of Havlat, Ruutu, Williams, Bourque, Sharp, and Toews would be an upgrade over the linemates he had in Montreal, and Samsonov will likely see more prime ice.

I just don't get you Samsonov fans. What has he ever done? He is a decent third line guy, maybe a second line guy every now and again. He isn't snything special. He is the sterotypical lazy russian player.

As I recall, Thornton and Samsonov didn't actually play together much from 99-04. But when they did, they both did benifit from it. But look at what Joey can do when he has guys that can score. He is an assit machine, a true playmaker. And just a sidenote, those stats are a little bias. Evenso, taking your numbers, when Joe and Sergei played together Joe's PPG went up about a half a point, while Sergei's went up about two tenths of a point. Obviouly it wasn't Samsonov doing anything different. It was Joe.

Looking at the stats a little closer, Thornton actually had a better GPG than Samsonov both while playing with and without him. When Joe Thornton puts more pucks in the net than you do on a consistant basis, are you really a goal scorer?

[Opie 308]

Don't forget his center before Thornton was Jason Allison, pre-concussions Jason Allison. Again no slouch at the center position.

When watching Sergei he is very similar to Hull when in the offensive zone, he is just missing the shot.

He is not good at creating his own shot, his best move was to turn out of the corner, using his speed, coast to the slot and take a wrist shot.

Sammy cannot take a hit, it seemed like every time he took a solid shot he would end up on the bench for his next two shifts.

He has suffered a couple of pretty bad wrist injuries, to each wrist I believe.

Also last year he was healthy scratched and logged a lot of minutes on the fourth line in Montreal!

That tells me a lot about where his skill has gone.

8-9 years ago I am all over the wings getting Sergei but not any more.

[Earthhuman 8]

Don't forget his center before Thornton was Jason Allison, pre-concussions Jason Allison. Again no slouch at the center position.

When watching Sergei he is very similar to Hull when in the offensive zone, he is just missing the shot.

He is not good at creating his own shot, his best move was to turn out of the corner, using his speed, coast to the slot and take a wrist shot.

Sammy cannot take a hit, it seemed like every time he took a solid shot he would end up on the bench for his next two shifts.

He has suffered a couple of pretty bad wrist injuries, to each wrist I believe.

Also last year he was healthy scratched and logged a lot of minutes on the fourth line in Montreal!

That tells me a lot about where his skill has gone.

8-9 years ago I am all over the wings getting Sergei but not any more.

I've barely seen him play so I can't comment there.

The wrist injuries mean nothing, I don't even see what you're arguing there.

Once again, MONTREAL. He was never going to succeed in Montreal, that has been covered already.

He was a decent player 9 years ago and he is a decent player now.

And for the record, Jason Allison's production made a dramatic jump just has he started playing with Samsonov. In 1997, he had 34 points in 72 games. Not spectacular. In 1998, 83 points in 81 games... Samsonov had NOTHING to do with Allison going from getting less than a half point a game to becoming a star?

[Guest DetroitIan]

That's funny. If Samsonov is so much more highly regarded than J Willy, why did EVERY GM pass on Samsonov twice last season? And why was there only 1 GM interested in him in the offseason? J Willy isn't a great player, but at least he shows up. If it's not on the score sheet, it's in his physcial game. I'm not saying GM's were lining up to get him, but I remember several occasions which Kenny talked about moving him.

Dude can you like not read or something? My last post just said "unless your talking about salary". Cause to answer your question, THAT is the reason no one was interested. Cause he has a FAT contract. If Samsonov had a more reasonable contract, he would have been very coveted(well, atleast more coveted then Williams). I mean seriously, everyones gotta be laughing their asses off when you say Williams is more skilled and more wanted then Sergei Samsonov.

[Opie 308]

Because you say it is the systems fault, that doesn't make it so. One Steve Yzerman was once thought of as only an offensive weapon, who couldn't play both ends of the ice. My how that opinion has changed. Why because he was able to work at it, and had the desire to be better on both ends.

Sergei wants to score and as far as I can remember watching him play with the B's was always a defensive liability.

I wasn't arguing any point by the way, I am simply stating my opinion.

BringHomeTheCup! made the comparrison to Willy and I was responding to his post.

The wrist injuries were brought in to show that he may not have the same skill he once did, seeing how wrist injuries might inhibit the performance of a guy whose main weapon is a wrist shot.

I never said he wasn't a decent player actually what I said was he was a solid Third liner like Whitney, whom I would still like to have. But between Whitney, Samsonov, or Willy right now my opinion is to take Willy.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Dude can you like not read or something? My last post just said "unless your talking about salary". Cause to answer your question, THAT is the reason no one was interested. Cause he has a FAT contract. If Samsonov had a more reasonable contract, he would have been very coveted(well, atleast more coveted then Williams). I mean seriously, everyones gotta be laughing their asses off when you say Williams is more skilled and more wanted then Sergei Samsonov.

Yeah, I can read. This is what I want you to do. Just a small favor. Go look up the waiver rules. You'll notice that Samsonov not only could have been had for nothing, but also at a fraction of the cost. Samsonov's 'fat' contract had NOTHING to do with every GM passing on him.

Show me where I said that J Willy is 'more skilled' than Samsonov? Seriously, show me. You can't becuse I didn't say that.

Maybe it's you who can't read....

[Guest DetroitIan]

Show me where I said that J Willy is 'more skilled' than Samsonov? Seriously, show me. You can't becuse I didn't say that.

Maybe it's you who can't read....

I didnt say you said that word for word. But basically thats how you are coming off. Thats the vibe I get from what you're saying. Obviously Williams would have to be a better player and more skilled then Samsonov for you to say what you're saying. I'll give you a hypothetical. Lets say by July 1st Williams and Sergei are both UFAs and both are asking about 1.5 mill per year. There is not even a shred of doubt in my mind that Samsonov would generate more interest then Williams. Ya wanna know why? Cause Samsonov is the better player, he is the more experienced player, he's more skilled, and he plays like a mad man during the post season. Other then Roloson and Smyth, Samsonov was arguably the Oilers MVP in getting to the finals. You will NEVER be able to say that about Williams. Ever.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

I didnt say you said that word for word. But basically thats how you are coming off. Thats the vibe I get from what you're saying. Obviously Williams would have to be a better player and more skilled then Samsonov for you to say what you're saying. I'll give you a hypothetical. Lets say by July 1st Williams and Sergei are both UFAs and both are asking about 1.5 mill per year. There is not even a shred of doubt in my mind that Samsonov would generate more interest then Williams. Ya wanna know why? Cause Samsonov is the better player, he is the more experienced player, he's more skilled, and he plays like a mad man during the post season. Other then Roloson and Smyth, Samsonov was arguably the Oilers MVP in getting to the finals. You will NEVER be able to say that about Williams. Ever.

Wow. Did you even bother to check out the waiver rules? You should. Then get back to me and tell me why no one picked up Samsonov.

As much as everyone here hates the guy Pronger was HUGE in the Oilers run, so was J. Smith, Torres, Hemsky, Pisani, and Sykora. To put Samsonov as third in that group, well, it's just sad. In fact, just by points alone, Samsonov was 6th on the team. Add in Rolie's play, that puts him at least 7th.

The simple fact that Williams was traded when Samsonov could have been picked up for free, both would have been paid nearly the same amount, says a lot about Samsonov. I won't deny that Samsonov is more skilled than Williams. But I do believe that Williams is a better player. It takes much more than skill to play this game. It isn't football or baseball.

So before you make yourself look even more foolish, go read about waivers. Then apply what you learn to you Samsonov theory.

BTW, yes, you did say that I said Williams is more skilled Samsonov. That's exactly what you claimed I said. Check out your own post there Sparky.

Edited June 19, 2007 by BringHomeTheCup!

[Guest DetroitIan]

Wow. Did you even bother to check out the waiver rules? You should. Then get back to me and tell me why no one picked up Samsonov.

As much as everyone here hates the guy Pronger was HUGE in the Oilers run, so was J. Smith, Torres, Hemsky, Pisani, and Sykora. To put Samsonov as third in that group, well, it's just sad. In fact, just by points alone, Samsonov was 6th on the team. Add in Rolie's play, that puts him at least 7th.

The simple fact that Williams was traded when Samsonov could have been picked up for free, both would have been paid nearly the same amount, says a lot about Samsonov. I won't deny that Samsonov is more skilled than Williams. But I do believe that Williams is a better player. It takes much more than skill to play this game. It isn't football or baseball.

So before you make yourself look even more foolish, go read about waivers. Then apply what you learn to you Samsonov theory.

BTW, yes, you did say that I said Williams is more skilled Samsonov. That's exactly what you claimed I said. Check out your own post there Sparky.

I was under the impression that if you are claimed off of waivers, the team that claims you takes on your contract. So if that isnt the case, so be it. And the only one making themselves look like a fool is you. Samsonov is more skilled but Williams is better?? They are dead even on speed, Samsonov has more skill, Samsonov has more experience, Samsonov shows up in the playoffs. So what exactly are you rambling about?? Your whole arguement about Samsonov not being good was giving point totals. Sowhy dont you compare Williiams point totals to Sergei's??? Oh thats right, cause that would make you look like a retard. The only possible thing you could say to give Williams the edge is that he's much younger. Thats it. Then you go on to put your foot in your mouth even more by saying it takes only skill to be good at football. Wow, you just proved you know dick about general sports. It takes MULTIPLE dimensions to be a great football player. So please, quit talking out of your ass, cause your just digging the hole deeper in displaying all your wise sports "knowledge". Man you just got schooled on a tuesday afternoon. Feel good "Sparky"?

Edited June 19, 2007 by DetroitIan

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

I was under the impression that if you are claimed off of waivers, the team that claims you takes on your contract. So if that isnt the case, so be it. And the only one making themselves look like a fool is you. Samsonov is more skilled but Williams is better?? They are dead even on speed, Samsonov has more skill, Samsonov has more experience, Samsonov shows up in the playoffs. So what exactly are you rambling about?? Your whole arguement about Samsonov not being good was giving point totals. Sowhy dont you compare Williiams point totals to Sergei's??? Oh thats right, cause that would make you look like a retard. The only possible thing you could say to give Williams the edge is that he's much younger. Thats it. Then you go on to put your foot in your mouth even more by saying it takes only skill to be good at football. Wow, you just proved you know dick about general sports. It takes MULTIPLE dimensions to be a great football player. So please, quit talking out of your ass, cause your just digging the hole deeper in displaying all your wise sports "knowledge". Man you just got schooled on a tuesday afternoon. Feel good "Sparky"?

I'll give you the general idea behind re-entry waivers, which Samsonov was placed on. Any team could have picked him up for about 50% of his contract. Coincidently, that is about $150k more than J Willy makes. No GM would was willing to take that chance. Again, that says a lot about how Samsonov is viewed.

Yes, Samsonov is more skilled. J Willy is better. It's just like you can be smart, but not knowledgeable. Or do I have to explain that one too? If you can't see the difference between being skilled, and being effective, maybe you should pay attention to the game.

What I meant with the football remark was simply this. Football is a sport that has several positions that don't require you to be good at any other aspect of the game, or even have any in depth knowledge of the game. Place kickers, and punters are great examples. All they have to do is kick the ball. That's it. The same with baseball. They have a DH, or relief pitcher. Hockey doesn't have a position like this. The only real comparison is a fighter, and they are pretty much extinct. Evenso, to get any amount of playing time, a fighter still must be able to contribute.

As far as comparing stats between J Willy and Samsonov, I fail to see your point. I've never said that J Willy put up bigger numbers, or that he was more talented. Samsonov puts up more points. But that isn't what I'm talking about. I'll give you one more example. Lang is much more talented, but Draper is a better player. I hope by now you can grasp that concept.

I'm going to say this one more time, Sparky, go read the waiver rules. Then you can come back to class, and try to school me. But nice try, for a Tuesday anyhow.

[Guest DetroitIan]

Whatever dude. Keep rambling about God knows what. You know dick about football, thats obvious. You contradict yourself from post to post. Im done trying to debate with someone that uses the whole basis for their earlier arguement by strictly using stats, then when the "stats" word gets thrown out for Williams, now thats not what your talking about. You can try to justify it any way you can, the bottom line is, Samsonov scores more goals, he generates more assists, he is proven in the playoffs, and when all is said and done will have the more overall impressive career. I'll take that over Williams any day. And nothing you keep rambling about will change that. School is now out of session. That'll be $65 bucks please. If you need any other lessons on any sports, just PM me. I'll help you out again.

[Opie 308]

I am not saying that Samsonov can't regain his old form, I am saying that in my opinion if I were the GM I would rather have Willy right now at this stage of both their careers!!!