Should Hamilton get an NHL team?

[canadienhater 0]

I will be honest here i have only been thru hamilton in the middle of the night so i have no idea of population or anything like that and to be honest if the little rat bastard bettman thinks it is a bad idea to put a team there then by all means do it

[Yzerfan75 0]

I will be honest here i have only been thru hamilton in the middle of the night so i have no idea of population or anything like that and to be honest if the little rat bastard bettman thinks it is a bad idea to put a team there then by all means do it

Yah...pretty much I agree with you on the "if Bettman doesn't like it, then do it" angle.

I know nothing about Hamilton but I have to say that there seems more interest in a team being there (in terms of tickets so ALREADY...without a team even being there yet) than the overall attendance for the Predators the last four or five years. Didn't an article on TSN say something about it not breaking 14,000 per game each of the last five years in Nashville?

I think it's cool that radio stations in Nashvegas are all excited and doing the ticket drive...but I have to wonder when is too little, too late?

[canadienhater 0]

Yah...pretty much I agree with you on the "if Bettman doesn't like it, then do it" angle.

I know nothing about Hamilton but I have to say that there seems more interest in a team being there (in terms of tickets so ALREADY...without a team even being there yet) than the overall attendance for the Predators the last four or five years. Didn't an article on TSN say something about it not breaking 14,000 per game each of the last five years in Nashville?

I think it's cool that radio stations in Nashvegas are all excited and doing the ticket drive...but I have to wonder when is too little, too late?

I think it would be different if it was like the browns in football leaving cleveland.the factis the nhl needs to adopt the nascar approach to marketing which is if you don t like us don t watch us

[StaticWithABeat 0]

Let's put it this way...the team doesn't even exist and it's already outselling Nashville.

[eva unit zero 271]

Let's put it this way...the team doesn't even exist and it's already outselling Winnipeg.

Fixed it.

[Guest DetroitIan]

I'll tell ya one thing. They sure as hell deserve a team alot more than those hicks who don't even know what icing is. Im a proud American, but I believe Canada strongly deserves another NHL team. Especially over a city like nashville.

[StaticWithABeat 0]

Fixed it.

Two days into the campaign, the number of people putting deposits on season tickets for a potential National Hockey League team in Hamilton overtook the number of season-ticket holders of the Nashville Predators.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...orts/columnists

[eva unit zero 271]

I'll tell ya one thing. They sure as hell deserve a team alot more than those hicks who don't even know what icing is. Im a proud American, but I believe Canada strongly deserves another NHL team. Especially over a city like nashville.

Canada may. Hamilton no.

There are better choices than Hamilton for an NHL team. Winnipeg and Quebec being the obvious ones.

Hamilton is too close to Toronto and Buffalo to 'deserve' its own team.

How about Grand Rapids? The GR metro area is bigger than Hamilton's, is in a hockey market, and it's much further from the nearest established teams.

Or Ann Arbor? Ann Arbor is comparable to Kitchener in size, and is basically equidistant from the nearest NHL team. What makes Kitchener so much more deserving than Ann Arbor?

Now, speaking REALISTICALLY, any metro area with a population of less than a million should probably not be considered to be an NHL city; metro areas that small have typically failed in recent years. There is currently only no metro area with a population lower than 1m that has its own team. Raleigh, Edmonton, Calgary, Buffalo, and Ottawa are the only markets above 1m but below 1.4m, and Nashville, Columbus, and San Jose round out the list of metro areas under 2m.

The last metro areas with fewer than 1m? Winnipeg, Quebec, and Greensboro are the only cities that have hosted NHL teams since the 1930s whose metro areas currently have a population fewer than 1m.

[MacK_Attack 108]

How about Grand Rapids? The GR metro area is bigger than Hamilton's, is in a hockey market, and it's much further from the nearest established teams.

Or Ann Arbor? Ann Arbor is comparable to Kitchener in size, and is basically equidistant from the nearest NHL team. What makes Kitchener so much more deserving than Ann Arbor?

Money. Southern Ontario has the corporate/personal dollars to not only keep the seats sold, but full during games, which is better for the bottom line, because professional teams make huge dollars on booze sales/concessions at games.

The economy in Michigan would not be able to handle another team. Yes, the interest would be there, but the money isn't.

[eva unit zero 271]

Money. Southern Ontario has the corporate/personal dollars to not only keep the seats sold, but full during games, which is better for the bottom line, because professional teams make huge dollars on booze sales/concessions at games.

The economy in Michigan would not be able to handle another team. Yes, the interest would be there, but the money isn't.

The Red Wings have been one of the most expensive tickets in the league for years. While playoff tickets didn't sell well, that was not only due to the economy, but due to the fact that prices were increased several times over for the postseason. A team based in Grand Rapids or Ann Arbor would likely have significantly lower prices at the beginning.

[Swayze 81]

...and what about the wings fans? how many of them are seriously gonna desert their team to support a brand new one (or re-located "rival")? I seriously can only see them selling out games if they're playing the wings.

[MacK_Attack 108]

The Red Wings have been one of the most expensive tickets in the league for years. While playoff tickets didn't sell well, that was not only due to the economy, but due to the fact that prices were increased several times over for the postseason. A team based in Grand Rapids or Ann Arbor would likely have significantly lower prices at the beginning.

Leafs tickets have been the most expensive seat in professional sports since the beginning of time, but the building is full no matter what. Hamilton's drawing power will be getting those who can't get Leafs tickets and those who either don't want to drive to Buffalo or deal with the hassles of border-crossing to plunk down the cash for seasons tickets, which they have clearly already had overwhelming success without putting a single cent into marketing.

I'm not saying that Ann Arbor or Grand Rapids couldn't make a go of it, but Hamilton is a potential gold mine for the NHL. The demand and wealth is there to make it a very successful franchise. The Leafs and Sabres do not come even close to satisfying Southern Ontario's professional hockey needs. Hamilton's metropolitan population may not be that huge, but there's 7-million people within an hour's drive from Hamilton.

...and what about the wings fans? how many of them are seriously gonna desert their team to support a brand new one (or re-located "rival")? I seriously can only see them selling out games if they're playing the wings.

It's not an overnight process, but you can see in Ottawa how it can be done. You had people/families who had been Leafs, Habs or Nordiques fans for generations, but they slowly switch allegiences as time goes on. The next generation that comes around that didn't know what it was like to not have an NHL team in their city (or nearby area) are definitely more likely to support only that local team. It just takes time to build loyalty.

Edited June 18, 2007 by MacK_Attack

[canadienhater 0]

The Red Wings have been one of the most expensive tickets in the league for years. While playoff tickets didn't sell well, that was not only due to the economy, but due to the fact that prices were increased several times over for the postseason. A team based in Grand Rapids or Ann Arbor would likely have significantly lower prices at the beginning.

remember when the carolina owner whats his name was gonna move a team to the palace

The Red Wings have been one of the most expensive tickets in the league for years. While playoff tickets didn't sell well, that was not only due to the economy, but due to the fact that prices were increased several times over for the postseason. A team based in Grand Rapids or Ann Arbor would likely have significantly lower prices at the beginning.

the fact is the wings have competion with the pistons and tigers and for some reason idiots still sell out lions games

in the early to mid 90s the pistons and tigers both sucked

[eva unit zero 271]

remember when the carolina owner whats his name was gonna move a team to the palace

I don't recall ever hearing rumors about Karmanos moving to the Palace.

I have heard such rumors in the past about Bill Davidson, though. Davidson owns the Pistons, the Shock, the Palace, and the Tampa Bay Lightning. He also owned the Vipers.

[Legionnaire11 0]

It's not an overnight process, but you can see in Ottawa how it can be done. You had people/families who had been Leafs, Habs or Nordiques fans for generations, but they slowly switch allegiences as time goes on. The next generation that comes around that didn't know what it was like to not have an NHL team in their city (or nearby area) are definitely more likely to support only that local team. It just takes time to build loyalty.

so... it's okay if this happens in Canada. But not in Nashville?

The Sens went bankrupt. But according to you, it's okay, because it takes time and a couple of generations before a solid fanbase can be established...

But in Nashville, after 8 seasons. 8... you want to give up on us.

=====================================================

as far as hamilton outselling the preds. there's a difference between putting down $500 for a deposit, and actually paying $2500 for a full season, year, after year, after year. and we have more than 10,000 anyway, the 9,000 is full season ticket EQUIVELENTS. two of the half season packages only count as one full season. four of the 13 game packages only count as one full season.

So, there are a lot more fans who have bought into the team than the 9,000 number (obvious by the fact that we averaged 13,800 last season).

So until Hamilton gets 14,000 full season tickets paid for, then please stop with the nonsense about how they've outsold Nashville.

[Jwo 7]

so... it's okay if this happens in Canada. But not in Nashville?

The Sens went bankrupt. But according to you, it's okay, because it takes time and a couple of generations before a solid fanbase can be established...

But in Nashville, after 8 seasons. 8... you want to give up on us.

=====================================================

as far as hamilton outselling the preds. there's a difference between putting down $500 for a deposit, and actually paying $2500 for a full season, year, after year, after year. and we have more than 10,000 anyway, the 9,000 is full season ticket EQUIVELENTS. two of the half season packages only count as one full season. four of the 13 game packages only count as one full season.

So, there are a lot more fans who have bought into the team than the 9,000 number (obvious by the fact that we averaged 13,800 last season).

So until Hamilton gets 14,000 full season tickets paid for, then please stop with the nonsense about how they've outsold Nashville.

Well the organzation has been around for 10 years and your current owner is losing money because of those seasons. That's a good sign to give up unless you want to continue to lose money for the coming years.

[drsingle 0]

Well the organzation has been around for 10 years and your current owner is losing money because of those seasons. That's a good sign to give up unless you want to continue to lose money for the coming years.

I won't disagree with anything you've said. I just want to point out that Legionnaire was responding to a poster that had indicated that it really took at least a generation to successfully judge whether a market will support hockey. Being a generation is about 25 years, Legionnaire was pointing out that Nashville has only been on the ice for 8 seasons to this point.

David

[Legionnaire11 0]

Well the organzation has been around for 10 years and your current owner is losing money because of those seasons. That's a good sign to give up unless you want to continue to lose money for the coming years.

the thing is, we showed in the beginning that the town can support the team. We averaged 16,000 back then. Then the Titans came and made a run to the super bowl, and a lot of corporate support jumped over to that ship. Then the "Playoff Pledge" in the 5th season didn't pan out and a lot of the individual fans jumped ship at that point. But we've been building up again. Despite ticket price increases in the last two seasons, we've also seen the average paid attendance increase. So not only are more people going to games in Nashviille, but they're willing to pay more money to do so. and the team hasn't even won a stinkin playoff series yet. So, with attendance on the rise for a team who hasn't won anything yet, that's a good sign that the fanbase is growing. It would be pretty bad to abandon this market now.

[Kp-Wings 3]

so... it's okay if this happens in Canada. But not in Nashville?

The Sens went bankrupt. But according to you, it's okay, because it takes time and a couple of generations before a solid fanbase can be established...

But in Nashville, after 8 seasons. 8... you want to give up on us.

The Senators went bankrupt for a different reason. The team had fan support, but played in a small Canadian city. At the time this happened (around 2003), the Canadian dollar wasn't worth much, especially compared to the American dollar. That's mostly why they went bankrupt.

The Predators have problems because they have no corperate support, and very little fan support. Sure, the team has guys like you that are the die-hard fans. But other than that few, is there really much of a buzz about the Predators in Nashville? Please, tell me honestly too. I haven't been there to know, but I really doubt there is.

Edited June 18, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[toby91_ca 620]

so... it's okay if this happens in Canada. But not in Nashville?

The Sens went bankrupt. But according to you, it's okay, because it takes time and a couple of generations before a solid fanbase can be established...

But in Nashville, after 8 seasons. 8... you want to give up on us.

=====================================================

I don't want to speak for someone else, but I think you interpreted his comments differently than me. I took the comments as being that it takes time to switch allegiences after generations of cheering for a different team. I think that is quite different than taking time to build a market.

How about Grand Rapids? The GR metro area is bigger than Hamilton's, is in a hockey market, and it's much further from the nearest established teams.

Is that true? I'm not asking from any real informed point of view, but I would have thought that the Hamilton area would have more people than the Grand Rapids area.

[Legionnaire11 0]

The Senators went bankrupt for a different reason. The team had fan support, but played in a small Canadian city. At the time this happened (around 2003), the Canadian dollar wasn't worth much, especially compared to the American dollar. That's mostly why they went bankrupt.

The Predators have problems because they have no corperate support, and very little fan support. Sure, the team has guys like you that are the die-hard fans. But other than that few, is there really much of a buzz about the Predators in Nashville? Please, tell me honestly too. I haven't been there to know, but I really doubt there is.

The buzz has been growing over the last two seasons. Attendance has been up for the last two seasons, there have been more articles in the paper, a lot more predators talk on the radio, you see more car flags and stickers than ever before, more people wearing hats and shirts.

It's not the best hockey city. But I think that much should be obvious. We're not Detroit, Philly or Toronto. We're Nashville. So don't act surprised that we're in the bottom third for attendance. Frankly, someone has to be there, and last time I checked Nashville is a non-traditional market that is still growing the game after just 8 seasons. So why there is such a big stink about our attendance and support is crazy. If we were heading into our 29th season instead of our 9th, and there were no signs of improvement, then you could say "look, they've had a team for a while, they've had a chance to grow up with the franchise, a generation has grown up with the team and now is in position to be buying tickets but the fanbase still hasn't grown". But no one wants to give us that chance. And seeing as how things are improving, and the fanbase is growing, I don't see where you can rip a team from this city so prematurely.

I don't want to speak for someone else, but I think you interpreted his comments differently than me. I took the comments as being that it takes time to switch allegiences after generations of cheering for a different team. I think that is quite different than taking time to build a market.

we're trying to get people to switch allegiences from college football. Heck, we're not even trying to do that. We're trying to get them to fit a handful of hockey games into their schedule every year, just open up to the game and see what it's about.

It's all relative. It's about letting the franchise take roots and letting a generation grow up with the team. There is that core group that jumped on hockey immediately. Just like there will be a core group who would jump on the Predators in Hamilton immediately. But they're not going to rival the Leafs fanbase right away. You're going to have to let the kids grow up, they won't know anything about a time before the Preds were in Hamilton, they won't be raised to worship the leafs and only the leafs. So the fanbase will grow when those kids are able to join in with the initial group, and the next generation will add more and so on. Same thing here, the kids in this area LOVE hockey. If we had another 15 years, I don't believe there would ever be another issue with attendance in Nashville again.

[glasgowcelticwing 18]

I think that the Preds should be given another couple of season before any decision's on them moving should be made . They're only really starting to build a team that has the potential to be successful . IF they can become competitive on a regular basis , they might be able to build a up a solid enough fan base and backing that can drum up financial support that could keep them in Nashville.

[Wings_Dynasty 267]

In a word. No.

In more words. Why should they get one? Anyone in that area is already a Leafs or Sabres fan. It would be like putting a team in Ann Arbor like one poster said, I live 5 miles from AA and I wouldn't go to the games unless they were playing the Wings.

[Legionnaire11 0]

here's something interesting in regards to all the people who have been saying that Balsillie will just come in and raise ticket prices to the point where it's impossible to average 14k.

we (preds fans on our boards) finally got a copy of the lease. and there was this little nugget in there.

The team shall not have the right to cancel this Agreement pursuant to this Section 2.3(B.) if (1) the average ticket price to the Home Games during the two (2) consecutive Seasons in question materially exceeds the average ticket price for NHL games generally.

It's guaranteed at this point that we'll hit 14k next season. We were only 200 away last season, and with the push we're having on tickets right now, we will easily blow away 14k. So that resets all of this "Cure Clause" stuff. So then you would say "well after that then the ticket prices will be jacked up and the team will move in 3 years".

But according to the lease, if he raises tickets above the NHL average, then he can't use the 14k clause to break the lease.

[Legionnaire11 0]

There is also some stuff in there that would indicate that the clause can't be inacted this summer (even though Leipold supposedly already has done it) because it states that in the event of a player strike or lockout, then the lockout season and the season following the lockout do not count towards the clause. The lockout basically reset everything and last season was, for all intents and purposes, the first season.

And there was also some confusion on the part about the government buying tickets to make up the difference. It was assumed that it would be at the end of the season, if the team came up say, 300 tickets short of the average, that Metro could write a check to make up the difference. But then some people said that it wouldn't work like that and that they would have to actually buy tickets to the games during the season. But the wording says that they can "make up" the difference by purchasing that number of tickets at the "average ticket price". Which would mean that they aren't actually buying tickets to games, and can in fact (actually it would be the only way that it all makes sense) purchase those tickets after the season to make up whatever the difference is.

So it seems that Balsillie must run the team in good faith (per the NHL), he cannot raise ticket prices above the NHL average (per the lease), this past season was only the first season that counts toward the 14k clause, and if there ever comes a time when he is able to enact the 14k clause (next summer at the earliest if we don't hit 14k) then Metro can simply make up the difference on the tickets and keep the lease in place.

I can't wait for all of this to get into the courts and get a judge to interpret these issues. The sooner that all of this comes out, the sooner Balsillie will pull out of the deal.