Holland: Prices for Bertuzzi, Schneider & Markov high

[detroitdeviant 0]

We just need to win our division no dang president trophy no No1 in the west. Just our division do we really need overpriced vets for the regular season??? Get hasek signed let the kids play, get a lead in our division, trade deadline cash in. http://www.hockeytraderumors.com/modules.p...le&sid=8756

[detroitdeviant 0]

Heres the list of next years free agents to be

Ducks

Ilja Bryzgalov

Chris Kunitz

Mike Hoffman

Geoff Peters

Thrashers

Marian Hossa

Bobby Holik

Steve Rucchin

Johan Hedberg

Fred Brathwaite

Darren Haydar

Jason Krog

Bruins

Alexei Zhamnov

Aaron Ward

Shean Donovan

Nate Dicasmirro

Mark Mowers

Sabres

Jochen Hecht

Dmitri Kalinin

Brian Campbell

Hurricanes

Bret Hedican

Cory Stillman

John Grahame

Mike Commodore

Trevor Letowski

Keith Aucoin

David Gove

Andrew Hutchinson

Flames

Jarome Iginla

Miikka Kiprusoff

Daymond Langkow

Craig Conroy

Robyn Regher

Stephane Yelle

Kristian Huselius

Andrei Zyuzin

Blackhawks

Martin Lapointe

Jason Cullimore

Jason Williams

Radim Vrbata

Patrick Lalime

Blue Jackets

Sergei Fedorov

Adam Foote

David Vyborny

Jason Chimera

Jody Shelley

Avalanche

Joe Sakic

Jose Theodore

Brett Clark

J-M Liles

Ian Laperriere

Andrew Brunette

Stars

Mattias Norstrom

Sergei Zubov

Niklas Hagman

Nolan Baumgartner

Red Wings

Niklas Lidstrom

Kris Draper

Andreas Lilja

Chris Osgood

Dan Cleary

Oilers

Jason Smith

Marty Reasoner

Panthers

Chris Gratton

Branislav Mezei

Kings

Rob Blake

Oleg Tverdovsky

Lubomir Visnovsky

Scott Thornton

Brian Willsie

Kevin Dallman

Brendan Buckley

Raitis Ivanans

Wild

Pavol Demitra

Brian Rolston

Keith Carney

Petteri Nummelin

Branko Radivojevic

Canadiens

Sergei Samsonov

Cristobal Huet

Mark Streit

Predators

J.P. Dumont

David Legwand

Chris Mason

Devils

Richard Matvichuk

Jay Pandolfo

Mike Mottau

Islanders

Miroslav Satan

Radek Martinek

Freddy Meyer

Allan Rourke

Richard Park

Rangers

Darius Kasparitis

Martin Straka

Paul Mara

Marek Malik

Michal Roszival

Stephen Valiquette

Senators

Wade Redden

Dany Heatley

Mike Fisher

Flyers

Geoff Sanderson

Coyotes

Niko Kapanen

Kevyn Adams

Patrik Fischer

Don Maclean

Bryan Helmer

Travis Roche

Mattia Tjarnqvist

Penguins

Mark Eaton

Ryan Malone

Jarkko Ruutu

Georges Laraque

Sharks

Joe Thornton

Patrick Marleau

Vesa Toskala

Curtis Brown

Patrick Rissmiller

Grahame Mink

Blues

Doug Weight

Martin Ruchinsky

Petr Cajanek

Bryce Salvador

Dallas Drake

Ryan Johnson

Trent Whitfield

Lightning

Dan Boyle

Vaclav Prospal

Tim Taylor

Andre Roy

Maple Leafs

Wade Belak

Erik Westrum

Canucks

Markus Naslund

Brendan Morrison

Matt Cooke

Marc Chouinard

Capitals

Olaf Kolzig

Chris Clark

Donald Brashear

Matt Bradley

Fredric Cassivi

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Yeah, we saw how replaceable he was on the PP during the playoffs....

Please. When you replace Schneider with any of Sammy, Lebda, and Chelios, then its going to make Schneider look like a god. Youre talking about opposite ends of the spectrum here. Schneider AND Kronwall were out. We were down to ONE offensive defenseman. In contrast, most teams play with three, and none of the other teams in the final four had less than 3 offensive defenseman to our one. Losing Schneider looked worse than it did because we dont have any forwards who are used to playing the point - Sammy being the best we could do - and at the point Schneider went down we didnt have any other defenseman who were capable of playing the point.

People are all ready to throw in the towel as if its Schneider or nothing, but going with, for example, Lidstrom, Hamrlik, Kronwall as point defenseman or Lidstrom, Stuart, Kronwall similarly is a world of difference between Lidstrom, Chelios, Lebda.

After Rivet got 3.5M, Schneider can ask for 5M with a straight face. Thats too much for how old hes getting in addition to the fact that 1) hes best years came when he played beside Lidstrom and 2) hes taking away time from Kronwall to grow. At this point in Kronwall's career, its now or never to see if this kid can become what he was touted to be, and the only way to find that out is to let him thrive on more offensive minutes where he was dominant in his pre-NHL career.

At this point, Preissing, Stuart, and Hamrlik are probably cheaper choices who may not be as dominant as Schneider, but would likely elevate their game playing alongside Lidstrom, as weve seen happen with both Lilja and Schneider over the past few years. Also keep in mind that signing Stuart or Hamrlik would be a nice way of doing without BOTH Markov and Schneider, given that both Hamrlik and Stuart are physical in addition to being point men.

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

Cut Schneider. He's replaceable.

I don't agree with this, but I'd like to know who you think could replace him AND be just as effective?

[detroitdeviant 0]

But do we need Bertuzzi, Schneider & Markov to win our division?? and at what price? I would rather they played the younguns and try to fleece whatever they need at the deadline.

[d-city 0]

Holland should trade for these guys: Ilja Bryzgalov $1,000,000.0 &Joni Pitkanen $2,000,000.00

Get a cheap dman that can play with Nicky or on the Powerplay-- (Brad Stuart, Andy Sutton, Teppo Numminen, David Tanabe, Duvie Westcott,Tom Preissing, Chris Phillips, Scott Hannan, Eric Brewer, Cory Sarich)

Sign 1 0r 2 of these player (Ryan Smyth, Vyacheslav Kozlov, Jason Blake, Ladislav Nagy, Bill Guerin, Todd Bertuzzi, Marco Sturm, Jozef Stumpel, Martin Gelinas, Yanic Perreault, Dainius Zubrus)

[puckloo39 5,686]

Those were #'s that may have worked a few weeks ago; with the recent deals/signings those #'s are much higher now

Vishnevski I believe is a UFA come July 1st; like Markov he wasn't a "hot" commodity, & potentially could be signed for a moderate amount of $$$.

Forget Souray; with the insanity we are starting to see (add to what we had seen last July 1st 2006); Souray will get $6 million plus which is way too much for him; I'd much rather have Schneider back @ $4 million.

All in all the stupidity of GM's never ceases to amaze me as to the amounts they'll overpay; makes me thank the dear Lord we have Ken Holland running our team

I'm with ya, all the way. Thank goodness for Kenny Holland!

[Flip-check 6]

By who and at what cost?

I'm not saying he's totally irreplaceable. But signing him here will still probably be cheaper than going out and getting someone to replace him, considering the ridiculous premiums D-men are going for on the market.

Without a doubt. Thank you very much, Philadelphia.

Holland should trade for these guys: Ilja Bryzgalov $1,000,000.0 &Joni Pitkanen $2,000,000.00

Is Bryz any better than Ozzie? I'd believe it if he were: I know nothing about him, except for when Giguere's Pads were out at J.S. and jr.'s bedside.

It's likely not necessary though, if Jimmy posts a good year in GR.

[motorcitykid 42]

As long as Holland either offers Bertuzzi pennies or nothing much at all - i'm happy. I guess with Danny & Mathieu we could look elsewhere to fill their spots if money becomes a problem, but at the same time it's a bonus that they've already been here. I hope both are back next season.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Holland should trade for these guys: Ilja Bryzgalov $1,000,000.0 &Joni Pitkanen $2,000,000.00

Get a cheap dman that can play with Nicky or on the Powerplay-- (Brad Stuart, Andy Sutton, Teppo Numminen, David Tanabe, Duvie Westcott,Tom Preissing, Chris Phillips, Scott Hannan, Eric Brewer, Cory Sarich)

Sign 1 0r 2 of these player (Ryan Smyth, Vyacheslav Kozlov, Jason Blake, Ladislav Nagy, Bill Guerin, Todd Bertuzzi, Marco Sturm, Jozef Stumpel, Martin Gelinas, Yanic Perreault, Dainius Zubrus)

Holland wont trade for Bryzgalov as his value will be high consdering the Bruins and Coyotes have made it known they desperately want new goaltending. Hell be out of Hollands reach.

Pitkanen, on the other hand, fell out of favor in Philly this past year and would be insane if we signed him. Were talking about a guy that, at 22/23 years of age scored 13 goals, 46 points in 58 games. Of course this season he had a rough year and many were calling for his head in Philly, but all the more reason to trade for him. If he can be had for a blue chip prospect a la Kindl + 1st and 2nd round picks, then it should be done. Hes huge, hes young, hes offensive, and hes physical. Not to mention, he only costs 2M as of now and is a RFA next season meaning it would be cheap to retain his rights giving Detroit time to sign him to a long term contract. Pitkanen is realy one guy I wouldnt mind Detroit overpaying for. Hes the type of guy that, with mentoring from Chelios, Lidstrom, and Babcock, could be our cornerstone when Lidstrom retires.

It is a long shot, but strange things have happened in the new NHL, and getting Pitkanen would solve Detroits need for an offensive defenseman, a physical defenseman, and would open up the salary to sign Ryan Smyth.

Edited June 23, 2007 by YoungGuns1340

[norrisnick 1]

I don't agree with this, but I'd like to know who you think could replace him AND be just as effective?

Kindl. They'd both make mistakes and take dumb penalties, but with Jakub I could at least have the comfort that as a kid he'd learn from them.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Holland should trade for these guys: Ilja Bryzgalov $1,000,000.0 &Joni Pitkanen $2,000,000.00

Get a cheap dman that can play with Nicky or on the Powerplay-- (Brad Stuart, Andy Sutton, Teppo Numminen, David Tanabe, Duvie Westcott,Tom Preissing, Chris Phillips, Scott Hannan, Eric Brewer, Cory Sarich)

Sign 1 0r 2 of these player (Ryan Smyth, Vyacheslav Kozlov, Jason Blake, Ladislav Nagy, Bill Guerin, Todd Bertuzzi, Marco Sturm, Jozef Stumpel, Martin Gelinas, Yanic Perreault, Dainius Zubrus)

You give a new meaning to copy and paste. Why do you keep putting the same post in like 4 different threads?

Kindl. They'd both make mistakes and take dumb penalties, but with Jakub I could at least have the comfort that as a kid he'd learn from them.

Im also in favor of throwing Kindl in for Schneider. Use the Markov/Schneider money on another defenseman.

[eva unit zero 271]

Kindl. They'd both make mistakes and take dumb penalties, but with Jakub I could at least have the comfort that as a kid he'd learn from them.

Kindl will be good, but Schneider is one of the fifteen or twenty best defensemen in the world. Kindl might reach that level in a few years, but to think he could replace him right now is silly. Kronwall is the closest we have to an in-house replacement for Schneider. Kindl won't be ready for that before Nik is, and Nik is not ready.

[norrisnick 1]

Kindl will be good, but Schneider is one of the fifteen or twenty best defensemen in the world. Kindl might reach that level in a few years, but to think he could replace him right now is silly. Kronwall is the closest we have to an in-house replacement for Schneider. Kindl won't be ready for that before Nik is, and Nik is not ready.

Schneider's greatest asset and trickiest thing to replace is his PP play. Kindl is a PP stud. Let him eat some of those minutes being babysat by Lidstrom on the point and bring in someone less expensive than Schneider to replace (or more accurately improve upon) the more important issue which would be 5on5 defensive play.

[KronwallCRUNCH 5]

Please. When you replace Schneider with any of Sammy, Lebda, and Chelios, then its going to make Schneider look like a god. Youre talking about opposite ends of the spectrum here. Schneider AND Kronwall were out. We were down to ONE offensive defenseman. In contrast, most teams play with three, and none of the other teams in the final four had less than 3 offensive defenseman to our one. Losing Schneider looked worse than it did because we dont have any forwards who are used to playing the point - Sammy being the best we could do - and at the point Schneider went down we didnt have any other defenseman who were capable of playing the point.

People are all ready to throw in the towel as if its Schneider or nothing, but going with, for example, Lidstrom, Hamrlik, Kronwall as point defenseman or Lidstrom, Stuart, Kronwall similarly is a world of difference between Lidstrom, Chelios, Lebda.

After Rivet got 3.5M, Schneider can ask for 5M with a straight face. Thats too much for how old hes getting in addition to the fact that 1) hes best years came when he played beside Lidstrom and 2) hes taking away time from Kronwall to grow. At this point in Kronwall's career, its now or never to see if this kid can become what he was touted to be, and the only way to find that out is to let him thrive on more offensive minutes where he was dominant in his pre-NHL career.

At this point, Preissing, Stuart, and Hamrlik are probably cheaper choices who may not be as dominant as Schneider, but would likely elevate their game playing alongside Lidstrom, as weve seen happen with both Lilja and Schneider over the past few years. Also keep in mind that signing Stuart or Hamrlik would be a nice way of doing without BOTH Markov and Schneider, given that both Hamrlik and Stuart are physical in addition to being point men.

Schneider would be a Norris finalist on another team. Look at the numbers that he puts up in a secondary role, just imagine if he were out there in every key situation, or prime pp situation like Lidstrom is. I'm not saying that he is as good defensively as Nick, but I am saying that he would be a #1 guy on most squads. Hamrlik? Please tell me that you're joking- he is a slight upgrade over Lilja, with a better shot. I'm not even going to waste my time on commenting on Pressing and Stuart. Bottom line: Yeah, you could replace him with lesser players, but with your own argument look at what happened when Lebda, Samuelsson, etc started taking his spot on the point. This team isn't in a rebuild mode, and Schneider is the most important piece to their success outside of a goaltender; that was proven this postseason.

[norrisnick 1]

Schneider would be a Norris finalist on another team. Look at the numbers that he puts up in a secondary role, just imagine if he were out there in every key situation, or prime pp situation like Lidstrom is. I'm not saying that he is as good defensively as Nick, but I am saying that he would be a #1 guy on most squads. Hamrlik? Please tell me that you're joking- he is a slight upgrade over Lilja, with a better shot. I'm not even going to waste my time on commenting on Pressing and Stuart. Bottom line: Yeah, you could replace him with lesser players, but with your own argument look at what happened when Lebda, Samuelsson, etc started taking his spot on the point. This team isn't in a rebuild mode, and Schneider is the most important piece to their success outside of a goaltender; that was proven this postseason.

No, Schneider would be a career minus player fully exposed as the one-dimensional blueliner he is. Three times in his life has Schneider ever gotten even a single vote for Norris consideration. Not so coincidentally enough those occured in '07, '06, and '04. What do you suppose the common denominator of those three seasons is?

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

Kindl. They'd both make mistakes and take dumb penalties, but with Jakub I could at least have the comfort that as a kid he'd learn from them.

I don't understand how you can make that assumption when he hasn't even played a single NHL game yet. You're putting way too much pressure on the kid. He might be a stud, and may be fantastic in the future, but saying he can take Schneider's place and be just as effective? I don't buy it. Kindl needs to learn from the likes of Schneider, not replace him. Not yet at least.

Edited June 23, 2007 by HockeyCrazy3033

[norrisnick 1]

I don't understand how you can make that assumption when he hasn't even played a single NHL game yet. You're putting way too much pressure on the kid. He might be a stud, and may be fantastic in the future, but saying he can take Schneider's place and be just as effective? I don't buy it. Kindl needs to learn from the likes of Schneider, not replace him. Not yet at least.

There is nothing Kindl could learn from Schneider that he couldn't learn from Lidstrom. Plus Schneider has some nasty habits I wouldn't wish on any up-and-comer.

I'll put it bluntly in stating that I haven't been a Schneider fan for a while now. I didn't want to re-sign him after the lockout and I don't want to re-sign him now. He's got an absolute cannon, and I think that is glossing over several of his more unsavory characteristics (turnovers, stupid penalties, not being able to cover his man in his own zone, etc...). Kindl's got a great shot, he's bigger, faster, and stronger than Schneider. I'm sure he'll make many of the same mistakes as Schneider, but he's young. He'll learn from his mistakes. They won't be deeply ingrained actions of a guy who's been around the block a couple dozen times.

[Heaton 1]

Kindl's got a great shot, he's bigger, faster, and stronger than Schneider. I'm sure he'll make many of the same mistakes as Schneider, but he's young. He'll learn from his mistakes. They won't be deeply ingrained actions of a guy who's been around the block a couple dozen times.

Not that I disagree with you about Kindl taking over for Schneider but how do you know he's stronger? Saying he's faster isn't that hard to agree with, bigger and has a great shot, but how do you know he's stronger?

[norrisnick 1]

Not that I disagree with you about Kindl taking over for Schneider but how do you know he's stronger? Saying he's faster isn't that hard to agree with, bigger and has a great shot, but how do you know he's stronger?

A couple of his hits and fights I've seen. Could just be a factor of his size, but if he weren't also strong he'd have a much harder time staying on his feet. So since Matt is smaller and a guy that has never struck me as being strong (apart from his shot) I guess I'm hoping that Kindl is stronger. Cuz if not, he really needs to bulk up.

[Heaton 1]

A couple of his hits and fights I've seen. Could just be a factor of his size, but if he weren't also strong he'd have a much harder time staying on his feet. So since Matt is smaller and a guy that has never struck me as being strong (apart from his shot) I guess I'm hoping that Kindl is stronger. Cuz if not, he really needs to bulk up.

Fair enough, I trust your judgment just was curious about how you came to your conclusion.

[Earthhuman 8]

So since Matt is smaller and a guy that has never struck me as being strong (apart from his shot) I guess I'm hoping that Kindl is stronger. Cuz if not, he really needs to bulk up.

And a slap shot is all skill. Yah, I agree that Kindl is stronger. His shot looks like an NHL shot.

I would love to see a young guy with size move in and give this team some energy.

[larionov_8 12]

Question: Has Kindl even played in GR yet? If not, I really don't see him jumping into Detroit's lineup, let alone replacing Schneider's role. While I agree that Schneider is not a great defensive defensemen (that's always been his profile), the fact is that he's a veteran who can minimize his own stupidity simply through sheer experience. The same can't be said for Kindl, who does not have NHL experience, and perhaps not even the AHL experience, under his belt.

A sidenote on Kindl: I saw him play twice last year with the Kitchener Rangers. While I was impressed that he played a lot of minutes and in all the key situations, I couldn't help comparing him to another Czech d-man -- Jiri Fischer -- because he just seemed to make really unfortunate decisions (euphemism) with the puck. In fact, he shot a puck right into a player's shin pad at the offensive blueline, which resulted in a breakaway and the GWG for the other team. I'm not trying to bash him, because I really do hope that he is this "stud" we're all hoping for. Just don't expect him to be great anytime soon. Expect the growing pains we saw with Jiri. How many of us were calling for his head while he was still playing?

And after all this, I won't be terribly upset if Schneider is lost. But I would be distraught if Kindl was the man chosen to replace him.

[Earthhuman 8]

Damn, that's true, but given the staff's diagnosis of him in last years training camp, I would hope that they would only have better things to say about him.

Maybe he's not a replacement for Schneider, but he can possibly take a spot on the roster, and then we'll see what Kronvall can do. If he turns out to be what we all know he can be, then that long term deal will be a huge pay-off.

[larionov_8 12]

I'm all for letting Kronwall step up. But we have to have someone to step in to the lineup if something unfortune happens (I don't think this needs elaboration). THAT player could be Kindl. Letting Kindl go for a skate for is one thing, but having him out there besides the likes of Lebda, Meech, Quincey, even Lilja, etc would be a mistake in my opinion. And even if we essentially replace Schneider with Kronwall and Kronwall with Kindl, that might be what we're forced to do, especially barring an injury.

So, in short: we need some depth.