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high_stick69

Drake vs Lang....who is better?

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Drake vs Lang....who is better?

That's comparing apples to oranges -- they are different players. Skill-wise Lang beats Drake by miles.

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Words

If your going to get into extrapolation/consideration of outside variables, you're faced with the same problems with your own arguments, which propose valuation of a players quality soley on the points they put up. There are a ton of factors that effect that aside from that players own skill (coach's preference, talent of linemates, etc.). Points per minute played is merely one step further down the purely statistical scale, and has arguably the same amount of outside variables as your own argument.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're going to argue my logic that way, you're going to get into one cluster-f of a confusing argument.

Perhaps what I should have made more clear is that when someone asks which player is better, I immediately start considering which player I'd want on my team right now, if I were the GM. I'd obviously take Flip over Lang in a heartbeat. Performance last season is a factor, but I don't think many people will agree it should be the be-all-end-all of the 'who's better' argument..

okay, no one is going to say it so i will...

In not exactly so many words, someone has said it... at least once... by me... last page...

But to your credit, it is the right point. Drake will hopefully provide grit, like McCarty did, and like we need as a finishing piece to the long-incomplete grind line. Lang was not that kind of dude, and I hope our youth replace him before they hire a pseudo-Lang to waste more time and space.

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If your going to get into extrapolation/consideration of outside variables, you're faced with the same problems with your own arguments, which propose valuation of a players quality soley on the points they put up. There are a ton of factors that effect that aside from that players own skill (coach's preference, talent of linemates, etc.). Points per minute played is merely one step further down the purely statistical scale, and has arguably the same amount of outside variables as your own argument.

I guess what I'm saying is that if you're going to argue my logic that way, you're going to get into one cluster-f of a confusing argument.

Perhaps what I should have made more clear is that when someone asks which player is better, I immediately start considering which player I'd want on my team right now, if I were the GM. I'd obviously take Flip over Lang in a heartbeat. Performance last season is a factor, but I don't think many people will agree it should be the be-all-end-all of the 'who's better' argument..

oh my god. Do you like arguing purely for arguing's sake? And I'm already in one cluster f*ck of a confusing argument.

I never asserted that performance last season was the be all end all of who's better for f*ck's sake!

For the last time, I specified in my original post that if we're talking about last season, Lang was the better player.

Not based on any extrapolation or in depth statistical analysis, not based on who I would take if I were GM, not based on who has the most potential, but based on watching the games and on what I know about hockey. He centered the second line and while not having a good year, over the course of the season the Wings had a better chance of winning the game with Lang on the ice than they did with Filppula. That's not a knock on Flip.

All that being said if I had to pick between Flip and Lang, especially at their current salaries, I'd absolutely take Filppula.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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For the last time, I specified in my original post that if we're talking about last season, Lang was the better player.

That's great that you feel that way. And I'm sorry I introduced anything further than what fits in your rigid guidlines for what one must consider while evaluating a players quality. I'm pretty sure you were the only person who only considered only last season's point totals when responding, but next time, when someone arbitrarily assigns argumentative stipulations, I'll do better to follow them.

One question though; if you agree with me that Flip is the better player for our team right now, why are you even arguing? Just acknowledge and continue, it's not that hard, and doesn't even require argumentative concession (it seems like you're kinda worried about that).

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That's great that you feel that way. And I'm sorry I introduced anything further than what fits in your rigid guidlines for what one must consider while evaluating a players quality. I'm pretty sure you were the only person who only considered only last season's point totals when responding, but next time, when someone arbitrarily assigns argumentative stipulations, I'll do better to follow them.

Here we go again. You putting words in my mouth, telling me that I only considered last seasons point totals when responding. Um, did you read the part where I said more than stats, I based it on watching the games? Of course not, because you disregard anything I say that doesn't give you a reason to continue this inane debate.

One question though; if you agree with me that Flip is the better player for our team right now, why are you even arguing? Just acknowledge and continue, it's not that hard, and doesn't even require argumentative concession (it seems like you're kinda worried about that).

pot kettle black.

I'm arguing because I never said Flip wasn't the better player for the Wings now, dumbass! It's not like you've bested me in some battle of wits. You're arguing a point I never disagreed with.

Scroll back through the thread sparky. You're the one who chimed in and started this debate with your statistical analysis. All I said was that Lang was better last season. how can you take such a relatively simple statement and turn it into such a clusterf*ck of an argument?

Seriously. Run along. You either have the reading comprehension of a 3rd grader, or you just love to argue.

EDITED for grammar.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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RAWR

Haha, What? In the middle of your continuing tirade, did you just call me a dumbass for continuing to argue... and then use the pot and kettle analogy?! Wow.

Let's simplify. Drake vs Lang doesn't work per apples and oranges, so Lang vs Flip was introduced. Specifically the question of who's better. You affirmatively stated Lang was better, backing your claim with last season's point totals, but have since (unless I'm wrong) stated that Filpula is the better player for the present and future of the wings. When criticized, you say that you were merely saying Lang WAS better LAST YEAR.

The problem is, I don't think that's what anyone is discussing, we're mainly interested in whether the moves the team is making (and not making) this off season are helping the team, and whether Filpula can replace Lang.

I'd honestly not enjoy arguing with you so much, but with your use of vulgarity and logical fallacy, I catch that 'internet tough guy' vibe that kind of eggs me on. For that I apologize.

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Haha, What? In the middle of your continuing tirade, did you just call me a dumbass for continuing to argue... and then use the pot and kettle analogy?! Wow.

Let's simplify. Drake vs Lang doesn't work per apples and oranges, so Lang vs Flip was introduced. Specifically the question of who's better. You affirmatively stated Lang was better, backing your claim with last season's point totals, but have since (unless I'm wrong) stated that Filpula is the better player for the present and future of the wings. When criticized, you say that you were merely saying Lang WAS better LAST YEAR.

You're wrong. If you could read, you would see that I have been saying that Lang was better last year and that Flip has a lot of potential ALL ALONG.

I think I've mentioned it about 15 times now, but here's the original post:

(I highlighted the most relevant portion since I know you're incapable of reading and comprehending the entire contents of a post).

Yup.

Lang.

Or were you saying that a kid who scored 10 goals and 7 assists is better than Lang who scored 19 goals and 33 assists and was +12, just because he looked like he was working harder?

Flip has a lot of potential and can hopefully help fill the second line role, but if we're talking about last season here, Lang was better.

See how all this unpleasantness could've been avoided if you'd take the time to actually read before jumping at the chance to show us all just how smart you are?

The problem is, I don't think that's what anyone is discussing, we're mainly interested in whether the moves the team is making (and not making) this off season are helping the team, and whether Filpula can replace Lang.

I'd honestly not enjoy arguing with you so much, but with your use of vulgarity and logical fallacy, I catch that 'internet tough guy' vibe that kind of eggs me on. For that I apologize.

so you're speaking for everyone in this thread now? Was there a vote for thread captain and I missed it? Who got the 'A'?

"Logical fallacy." oooo, I used to love that band in college.

Enjoy your intellectual masturbation.

I'm done arguing with you.

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I'm done arguing with you.

:clap: Best decision you've made all day. Your post is too logically problematic to even start on.

...

Anyhow, since Drake vs. Lang led to Lang vs. Filpula... A flipside question for this thread might be whether bringing back Drake is better than if we could have brought back McCarty instead.

My beating hockey heart says McCarty, but the smarter side of me says McCarty is (unfortunately) a sinking ship, and Drake is the more solid move.

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:clap: Best decision you've made all day. Your post is too logically problematic to even start on.

...

Anyhow, since Drake vs. Lang led to Lang vs. Filpula... A flipside question for this thread might be whether bringing back Drake is better than if we could have brought back McCarty instead.

My beating hockey heart says McCarty, but the smarter side of me says McCarty is (unfortunately) a sinking ship, and Drake is the more solid move.

i brought that point up a few comments ago, I believe this signing was made to replace the loss of D mac more than anyone else. The difference being is that mac fought people and Drake just runs them over.

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... Wings have to keep cashola ready for Zetterberg's new/big contract. Likely he'll be asking for $6-$7M per I'd think.

With salaries this off season I think 7+ long term. Z is a franchise player more so than dats for example.

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i brought that point up a few comments ago, I believe this signing was made to replace the loss of D mac more than anyone else. The difference being is that mac fought people and Drake just runs them over.

I'm with you there. I agree we've never quite replaced Mac, my thought was if we would have brought him back instead of replacign him with Drake. I don't think either will provide the grit DMac had before, but if both could stay healthy, Drake will be grittier without spending 5 minute durations in the box.

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Can anyone explain why Maltby and Drake on the same team is a progress? Sounds like Babcockian obsession with "grease" to me. This team desperately needs someone that can shoot the puck and score especially on the PP. I want Yashin... Plus he can inherit the lazy and sucks trademark which this board so desparately needs.

.... Last season Lang was the better player.

And I hope that Holland picks up someone to improve that second line.

Lang was not better than Flip in the playoffs and

I agree I hope there is another top 6 forward signed.

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so you're speaking for everyone in this thread now? Was there a vote for thread captain and I missed it? Who got the 'A'?

"Logical fallacy." oooo, I used to love that band in college.

Enjoy your intellectual masturbation.

I'm done arguing with you.

:lol: HaroldSnepsts= teh funny :thumbup:

:clap: Best decision you've made all day. Your post is too logically problematic to even start on.

:crazy: Graceful in "victory"?

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:clap: Best decision you've made all day. Your post is too logically problematic to even start on.

Crymson? Is that you?

Harold's posts were fine, if you took the time to read and understand them. It wasn't even until the end that you stumbled across one of the things that he said in the first place... last season, Lang was the better player. Which is true. There were no contradictions on anything he put out there.

And don't be a dick. harold got fed up with your (purposeful, accidental, whatever) misunderstanding of his words to keep up the argument, but you're being a bit of an ass to him all your own. he didn't even press the whole "discussion", all he did was explain (..and re-explain..) the things you were calling him out on

that he didn't say.

edit: this is apparently the week I go off on anyone who acts pompous and condescending to other people! wondrous thing!

Edited by Flip-check

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My beating hockey heart says McCarty, but the smarter side of me says McCarty is (unfortunately) a sinking ship, and Drake is the more solid move.

They're both beyond merely sinking at this point. Mac was bought out a couple seasons ago by a legit contender. Drake was bought out a couple weeks ago by a bottom feeder. They're broken down 4th line pluggers. A role in this cap situation that would best be filled by kids that might develop into something instead of by guys playing on fumes with no hope of improving only trying to hang on.

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They're both beyond merely sinking at this point. Mac was bought out a couple seasons ago by a legit contender. Drake was bought out a couple weeks ago by a bottom feeder. They're broken down 4th line pluggers. A role in this cap situation that would best be filled by kids that might develop into something instead of by guys playing on fumes with no hope of improving only trying to hang on.

The bigger point in that case, especially given DMac's recent financial troubles, is whether these type of players have a retirement plan. Let's face it- the average person doesn't save nearly enough for retirement over 30 years. What happens when your main source of income is from the age 18-38 when you feel invincible and think you need to live like a superstar since you're being paid a million or more a year?

Sucks to live young and die old.

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Crymson? Is that you?

Harold's posts were fine, if you took the time to read and understand them. It wasn't even until the end that you stumbled across one of the things that he said in the first place... last season, Lang was the better player. Which is true. There were no contradictions on anything he put out there.

And don't be a dick. harold got fed up with your (purposeful, accidental, whatever) misunderstanding of his words to keep up the argument, but you're being a bit of an ass to him all your own. he didn't even press the whole "discussion", all he did was explain (..and re-explain..) the things you were calling him out on

that he didn't say.

edit: this is apparently the week I go off on anyone who acts pompous and condescending to other people! wondrous thing!

Yeah, I'm not anybody you know.

There are things I disagree with Harold about that cannot be written off so easily as misunderstandings: points per minute played being valid as a stat, potential meaning "jack", and what it is we are actually arguing. In retrospect it's too bad we didn't agree to disagree on those things a bit earlier. It's pretty sad when people argue about what they are arguing, and I'll admit an equal share in that.

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There are things I disagree with Harold about that cannot be written off so easily as misunderstandings: ...and what it is we are actually arguing. In retrospect it's too bad we didn't agree to disagree on those things a bit earlier. It's pretty sad when people argue about what they are arguing, and I'll admit an equal share in that.

True enough. I still think it's smartest to sit and play nice here. Since HS is a hard-ass it's probably easiest if you say sorry :P

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<_<

Pitting two players with different roles on the team together.... Hmmm makes you wonder why this thread doesn't get keel-hauled also?

Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

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<_<

Pitting two players with different roles on the team together.... Hmmm makes you wonder why this thread doesn't get keel-hauled also?

Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

agreed. How can some threads about players with different styles stay while others get deleted? hmmmmm

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agreed. How can some threads about players with different styles stay while others get deleted? hmmmmm

Its all right below my pirate colors in my sig... spelled out plain as day :rolleyes:

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Yeah, I'm not anybody you know.

There are things I disagree with Harold about that cannot be written off so easily as misunderstandings: points per minute played being valid as a stat, potential meaning "jack", and what it is we are actually arguing. In retrospect it's too bad we didn't agree to disagree on those things a bit earlier. It's pretty sad when people argue about what they are arguing, and I'll admit an equal share in that.

I was kidding on the Crymson question, it was because you reminded me of some of his posts.

And yeah, I agree, it is sad, but honestly I'd slide a more than equal share on your end. harold wasn't arguing about what you guys were arguing--he was clarifying (and reclarifying... mmm...) what he did, and didn't say.

On the other stuff I won't touch the ppm stat, but for the intents and purposes of your guys' discussion: career potential did mean jack, if you're talking about two players in the timespan of a year. but it's over, so really it's not that big a deal now

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I'm really not to pleased with signing Drake. We picked him up to be a physical presence on the ice. I won't deny that that could really help us out in the long run, but Drake is getting old, and you don't want an old guy to be the enforcer for your team (although it is an upgrade from Chelios :) )

I'm really hoping that he meshes with our team, and maybe some magic will happen to give him a more valuable role than he's had recently, or is expected to have this year, but I'm not too optimistic.

As for who is better, based on our current needs and state of the team, I would prefer to have Drake in the lineup. There was one time out of the entire season last year that I was proud of Lang and grateful he was on our team, and that was his clutch playoff goal. Unfortunately I think he may've indirectly been the result of many goals against for our team, and the only way I can see Drake doing that is by taking a stupid penalty. But at least then we won't have guys like Pronger trying to boost their egos by blasting our guys in the head at vulnerable moments.

Edited by Echolalia

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And yeah, I agree, it is sad, but honestly I'd slide a more than equal share on your end. harold wasn't arguing about what you guys were arguing--he was clarifying (and reclarifying... mmm...) what he did, and didn't say.

Just to clear that part up, he was preaching to the converted with those clarifications, here is the spine of the problem:

The real question should be Filppula vs. Lang...who is better?

I was responding to a question someone raised as to who was better last year.

Perhaps what I should have made more clear is that when someone asks which player is better, I immediately start considering which player I'd want on my team right now, if I were the GM.

We were arguing different things, the problem is, part of my complaint is that he was adding the "last year" part to WhiteLightning91's question to bolster his opinion. Tacking "last year" onto that original question, and shifting it to the past tense changes the question in a big way. I actually was enjoying the initial exchange with Harold, but should have been as clear as I just have been about not liking how I felt he was tailoring the argument to his opinion.

Unfortunately my lack of clarity caused more problems than did his tailoring of the argument, so perhaps I do deserve more than equal share of the blame.

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