Grigorenko Article

[Feldmarschall 9]

I'd rather see Cleary up top than Sammy. It all depends on whether or not he keeps up the pace he established in the playoffs. Dan Cleary in his top form is definitely a top-six forward on this team.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I'd rather see Cleary up top than Sammy. It all depends on whether or not he keeps up the pace he established in the playoffs. Dan Cleary in his top form is definitely a top-six forward on this team.

Cleary in his playoff form this year would be a top-six on any team. He made the Wings really hard to play against. Remember how much Calgary hated him? How they took stupid penalties because he got under their skin... On top of that he was a constant scoring threat.

[eva unit zero 271]

I'd rather see Cleary up top than Sammy. It all depends on whether or not he keeps up the pace he established in the playoffs. Dan Cleary in his top form is definitely a top-six forward on this team.

As good as Cleary looked in the playoffs, you have to remember a couple things:

He did that playingwith Draper and Maltby, two guys he meshes very well with.

Samuelsson had one point and one goalless in the same number of playoff games.

Samuelsson scored 14 goals and 34 points in 53 regular season games, compared to Cleary's 20 and 40 in 71. That puts Samuelsson on pace for 19-27-46 over 71 games, which would make him the top scoring returning forward not named Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Holmstrom.

In the 2006 regular season, Samuelsson tripled Cleary's output.

The 2007 playoffs are the first time that Dan Cleary has outscored Mikael Samuelsson in a Wings uniform.

If someone from the third line is swapped with Sammy, I would suggest Hudler first, then Franzen.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

If Cleary keeps up the work ethic that he showed last year, there's no reason why he shouldn't be a top 6 forward, especially since this team didn't add anything in the offseason. Samuelsson had a good year statistically 2 years ago, but wasn't very consistent last year, and scares the s*** out of every Wings fan when he's playing the point on the powerplay. To me he's not a top 6 forward, however, I'm afraid that if he plays with the 3rd or 4th line his production will be even worse since he needs to feed off of someone.

[Booster313 138]

That would be sweet!

Maybe if Calgary's struggling down the stretch the Flames will be forced to do with Kipersoff what the Oil did to Smyth. But I have a feeling that they'll go right into July 1st trying to resign him. Flames without Kipersoff=bottom 10 team.

But I'd love to see Kipersoff here. Who knows if Lids takes a home-town discount. But he might if he knew that Kipersoff was in the plans. We could easily win a Cup with him and our current roster.

Goal tending was the issue last year, We could have traded goalies with Calgary before the playoffs started and still had the same result. That being said, Dom will probably retire after this season I would love to have Kipper ready to replace him.

[Feldmarschall 9]

As good as Cleary looked in the playoffs, you have to remember a couple things:

He did that playingwith Draper and Maltby, two guys he meshes very well with.

Samuelsson had one point and one goalless in the same number of playoff games.

Samuelsson scored 14 goals and 34 points in 53 regular season games, compared to Cleary's 20 and 40 in 71. That puts Samuelsson on pace for 19-27-46 over 71 games, which would make him the top scoring returning forward not named Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Holmstrom.

In the 2006 regular season, Samuelsson tripled Cleary's output.

The 2007 playoffs are the first time that Dan Cleary has outscored Mikael Samuelsson in a Wings uniform.

If someone from the third line is swapped with Sammy, I would suggest Hudler first, then Franzen.

Entirely correct, but Sammy is not as positionally solid 5v5 and as fast two ways as Cleary has become, who in the playoffs put up points in all situations including three short-handed, and had a slightly better +/- in the regular season. Plus, the statistics are more flattering to Sammy than I think he deserves. The difference in regular season scoring is almost negligible, and just watching games, it seemed to me that Cleary was a better overall player most of the time. I think it'd be more sound to have the superior defensive player with the two Russians, given that Grigs will most probably make mistakes early in his North American career. Samuelsson is best left with second or third line even strength icetime but a nice share of power play time, particularly as a #4 blueline shooter behind Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall, or as a mid-slot/circle sniper if he plays up front. We've seen him do reasonably well in either spot.

At any rate, given Babcock's willingness to toy with line combos and swap Cleary, Sammy, Franzen, and Flip around as needed, we'll most likely see both players used in a variety of roles if Zetterberg and Datsyuk are split up.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Feldmarschall

[irishtemper14+25 11]

yea and how much will kipper want, i mean he is IMO the best goalie in the league...im sure he might give us a discount if we're still cup contenders, id love to have him but i think he might ask for a bit too much

[YoungGuns1340 1]

As with some others, sorry to stray away from the original topic, but commenting on the above statements about Miller. With Buffalo gettin raped by UFA, they will have more than an abundance of money to sign him when the time comes. Obviously there is more to signing than just money, players probably enjoy going to good teams, but Buffalo will be able to offer some good coin.

1) Buffalo doesnt negotiate contracts during the season 2) they always have a self-imposed salary cap 3) Its not about what Buffalo can offer Miller, but about Detroit being Millers first choice.

As for the current Sammy v Cleary debate, Im starting to reevaluate players a little bit. I think Cleary could be a top 6 on this team (any team - no. Detroit - yes) since we didnt sign anyone, but I actually think Sammy will have a good year this year. I think health issues this year really set him back. You could see in the playoffs how Sammy started to get his groove back as the playoffs went deeper. And im no fan of Sammy, but I do think with Lang and Willy gone from the start of the season, Sammy could have a 50 point showing easily.

As for Hudler, Im not really concerned about where this guy is going to fall in terms of line combos, but the more I think about it, the more I think Hudler really could do some damage on the PP as a sniper. He probably has one of the better wristers on this team and he definitely does have a great offensive mind and knows how to play the net. I really think this kid could be that sniper weve been looking for down low on the PP. (Cue all the people who'll bring up Hudlers size as an issue) Remember that most good snipers in this league arent big, physical guys. I really think we can get Hudler into a role where his job is to slip into the open spots unnoticed and let off a rocket shot. He wont attract much attention, and if Homer and Franzen/Cleary are going to be taking up their spots in front of the net, he could be good as a PP specialist.

yea and how much will kipper want, i mean he is IMO the best goalie in the league...im sure he might give us a discount if we're still cup contenders, id love to have him but i think he might ask for a bit too much

Ive always said that Detroit getting a top goaltender hinges on Lidstrom's retirement (and the cap going up, which is expected to happen again per spector). If Lids retires after this season, Kipper could be an option.

[MarkovCocktail 0]

1) Buffalo doesnt negotiate contracts during the season 2) they always have a self-imposed salary cap 3) Its not about what Buffalo can offer Miller, but about Detroit being Millers first choice.

I'm sure you're right, but just out of curiosity when did Miller say the wings would be his first choice?

[eva unit zero 271]

1) Buffalo doesnt negotiate contracts during the season 2) they always have a self-imposed salary cap 3) Its not about what Buffalo can offer Miller, but about Detroit being Millers first choice.

As for the current Sammy v Cleary debate, Im starting to reevaluate players a little bit. I think Cleary could be a top 6 on this team (any team - no. Detroit - yes) since we didnt sign anyone, but I actually think Sammy will have a good year this year. I think health issues this year really set him back. You could see in the playoffs how Sammy started to get his groove back as the playoffs went deeper. And im no fan of Sammy, but I do think with Lang and Willy gone from the start of the season, Sammy could have a 50 point showing easily.

As for Hudler, Im not really concerned about where this guy is going to fall in terms of line combos, but the more I think about it, the more I think Hudler really could do some damage on the PP as a sniper. He probably has one of the better wristers on this team and he definitely does have a great offensive mind and knows how to play the net. I really think this kid could be that sniper weve been looking for down low on the PP. (Cue all the people who'll bring up Hudlers size as an issue) Remember that most good snipers in this league arent big, physical guys. I really think we can get Hudler into a role where his job is to slip into the open spots unnoticed and let off a rocket shot. He wont attract much attention, and if Homer and Franzen/Cleary are going to be taking up their spots in front of the net, he could be good as a PP specialist.

The major difference is that Cleary last year was totally hit or miss...he was either on fire or invisible. And his defensive game was not all there during his slumps, which was particularly troubling. Sammy, OTOH, didn't peak as high as Cleary, and is far from a star, but did provide consistent support scoring without being a liability defensively. I'd rather see Hudler on Zetterberg's wing, but I don't expect Babcock to agree right away. Cleary is best when used in a defensive role where his primary purpose is forechecking and he can use his speed and hands to create scoring chances from that. He is not suited to being a finisher on a scoring line, as his offense is mediocre, an generally a result of defensive efforts put in, and he doesn't have the right skill set to be a playmaker on said scoring line.

[irishtemper14+25 11]

thats why i love the cleary malpty draper line, some IMO of the best defensive forwards on the same line...i dont holland wants to break those guys up

[Opie 308]

Edited your post not to make it say what I want but to shorten it to make it easier for others.

First of all, you must be the one consuming LSD filled cheerios because

1) Chelios is not one of the best defensive defenseman in the league. He is a great PKer, but that's as far as it goes.

We will have to agree to disagree. I personally think Cheli is still one of the best in his own zone

2) Do you even know who Miller is?? First of all, he has played NHL games in 4 seasons, accumulated 129 games to his name, has already played 2 straight years as starter (48+ games each time) and has perennial - "yearly" since you don't seem to understand that 4 years=a series of years - stats of 2.72 and .909 and has YET to reach his prime.

Easy chief, I already said he had played four years, but you can not count a 3 game and a 15 game season, in his perennial stats, as a started. Because if he only played 18 games in 2 seasons he was not their starter.

3) I have no argument there, as I am not saying he is not a good goaltender, just that I think the team should go Howard.

4) Are you blind? Because I CLEARLY accounted for a 4M winger and a 4M UFA Dman. The difference between a roster 2 years from now and todays roster is A- the forward lines would be better given that Hank, Datsyuk, Homer would still be there, Grigorenko and Flip would have 2-3 years under their belts, and there would be an additional forward of the 2nd line variety costing roughly 4M - think Jason Blake, David Legwand, Michael Ryder, Erik Cole. As for the Dman, you can consider a guy like Kuba, Stuart, Hannan, Norstrom, Mitchell. On top of that, mock rosters are always a give and take. UFA vets might take the place of rookies, and all of a sudden youd think the roster is complete just because you cant conceive of the fact that players might actually improve and not all end up like Kuznetsov.

[Even with two of the above mentioned players you are not accommodating for what the team has lost in my Opinion Weren't you the one giving me crap because I said that players aren't guaranteed to reach their potential, that is why I brought up Kuz, not because I thought every player would turn into him. Don't try to twist my words around. As I said in my last post, you are saying they will be a smashing success as much as I am saying they will fall on their face.

5) Finally, my cap estimate was a modest raise. At the rate in which the Canadian Dollar is going, soon to match that of the US, and the continued competitiveness of the NHL and (at least) superficial improvement of big market teams, namely Philly and New York, the cap would probably be higher, which is why I left roughly 1M in cap space.

The issue I have here is that eventually the cap will hit a ceiling. The reason the cap was put in place was to control teams spending. Yes the cap is growing greatly, but this is still the early stages.

Now as I said before, my posts are completely opinion. So please do not take this the wrong way.

Dats and Z will, much like the cap, reach a ceiling (unless they are complete superhuman freaks) their talent and skill can only grow for so long. They are both heading into their prime and an injury (back) can change all of that. I hope not, but it has happened before.

Homer is about as close to fulfilling his potential as he can get, he has rounded off his game nicely, however he will not be an elite forward.

In order for this team to be a cup contender (which was my problem with your roster) You are replacing the best defenseman the game has seen in a while with a 4 mil free agent, or Rafalski. Rafalski will be a great addition to this team and I hope he ends his career with Detroit. However, the loss of Lids will be devastating, at least Z will be there to take over the leadership side of things. And you are losing Cheli, regardless of our difference of opinion, he has the veteran skill, leadership, and ability that none of the young guys on this team have. Markov would be a nice replacement but as you are seeing now even he wants 3 mil and long term.

I am not trying to argue with you so please stop insulting me, I apologize if saying some one was putting LSD in your cheerios upset you, but if you really think that roster can contend for the cup you are looking at it through red wing colored glasses. I think this years team wins the division because of a weak division not due to greatness on the wings side. However with a really good trade or RFA (after arbitration) this team has potential to contend if everyone stays healthy. I am pulling for Cammellari, because that would be a great long term fit, however I am not sure if he puts this team over the top.

The whole second line is gone from last year. People may say that Lang was Lazy and he sucked, but he put up a fair amount of points that need to be replaced. If we (fans) are expecting grigs to carry that load or Franzen, I think we are being unrealistic.

Where as in my scenario with Howard at a very low salary the wings can afford to put talent around him because his salary will be about 4mil less than what Miller will want. Which is my point not that Miller isn't a good goalie with the potential to be great, I have conceded that fact. Plus in order to get him away from the sabres, as some one mentioned, the price will be even higher, they lost a lot this offseason and will want to protect whatever they can for the future. And nothing would help more than locking up a potential perennial all star goalie. I bet they lock him up like Kenny does Zetterberg, if not I guarantee the wings are not the only team throwing money at him, maybe a team like Edmonton, they seem to have money to throw around right now, and in the years to come.

[wingsfan979802 0]

wow, my thread went too grigorenko, goalies, and then top 6 forward. whats next? a thing about dmac and federov?

[Andy Pred 48 337]

Anyway, Grigs will be a top 6 forward by xmas! Stuck my neck out there

with that statement eh?

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

wow, my thread went too grigorenko, goalies, and then top 6 forward. whats next? a thing about dmac and federov?

The wings should get Federov at the Trade Deadline

[Guest snowman89]

Anyway, Grigs will be a top 6 forward by xmas! Stuck my neck out there

with that statement eh?

I am asking for a sarcasm check?

Edited August 6, 2007 by snowman89

[Henkka 0]

Any news about him? Has Grigs come overseas?

[Zata fan 40 6]

Any news about him? Has Grigs come overseas?

Just played his last practice game with UFA and will now be preparing to come over.

[Konnan511 1,736]

wow, my thread went too grigorenko, goalies, and then top 6 forward. whats next? a thing about dmac and federov?

Lang is lazy and he sucks! Wait..damn....missed that train eh, well I think the Wings' new jersey needs to brought up, I mean come on!

[Production Line 1]

wow, my thread went too grigorenko, goalies, and then top 6 forward. whats next? a thing about dmac and federov?

So are the Wings gonna sign Markov? Or another veteran D-man?