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Andy Pred 48

Ten to Zero ( the grit/toughness debate)

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At the end of the 85-86 season Detroit had 10 players with over 100 pmn on thier roster. 21 years later the Wings finished without a single player reaching that milestone. More worryingly for some is the fact that Lang and Schneider

topped the charts with 66pmns each. The interseting fact was that in 85-86 we finished dead last in the regular season

so missed the playoffs, where as last year we finished 2nd overall and made the conf finals. So I thought I would do a

little research to see if we could find some sort of pattern. I have grouped the facts in 7 year sections with our overall

position and playoff performance with the amount of 100+pmn takers for the year. The top and bottom takers are listed.

as well as any notable other facst ref the pmns. Hope you find it interesting and the memories come flooding back.

85-86: 10 Players, finished dead last overall. Joey Kocur 377 with Danny Gare 102. Barry Melrose had 70 in 14 games.

86-87: 8 Players, finished 11th overall and lost in Conf finals to the Oilers. Joey Kocur 276 with Shawn Burr 107. Basil McRae had 193 in 36 games.

87-88: 5 Players, finished 5th overall and lost in Conf final again to the Oilers. Bob Probert 398 with Doug Harlwood 130.

Both Kocur and Gallant had over 200 mins with Steve Martinson getting 84 in just 10 games, remember him?

88-89: 9 players, finished 10th overall going out in the 1st round. Gerard Gallant 230 with Lee Norwood 100.

89-90: 7 players, finished 3rd from bottom. Joey Kocur 268 with Torrie Robertson 112. Chris McRae had 45 in 7 games.

90-91: 6 players, finished 14th overall going out in the 1st round. Bob Probert 315 with rookie Keith Primeau 106.

91-92: 7 players, finished 3rd overall going out in the 2nd round. Bob Probert 276 with Shawn Burr & Brad McCrimmon on 118. New Russian D Vladimir Konstantinov has 172 pmn in his first season as a Wing.

So from 85 to 92 the Wings have 52 players having 100+ pmns with their highest finish being a 3rd place twice and reaching the conf finals twice as well. No one is taking liberties at the Joe and getting away with it but no silverware either. More goon than grit and skill I feel. Overall Reg season record Played 560 won 231 lost 256 drew 73.

92-93: 5 players, finished 5th overall going out in the 1st round. Bob Probert 292 with Vladimir Konstantinov 137. Jim Cummins had 58 in 7 games.

93-94: 7 players, finished 4th overall going out in the 1st round again. Bob Probert 275 with Paul Coffey 106. Wings score a league leading 356 goals.

94-95: This was the short 48 game league season. Only Konstantinov had over 100 pmn but a pro-rata see's the Wings having 5 players over the threshold. The Wings finished 1st overall and made the Stanley cup final losing to

the Devils.

95-96: 4 players, finished 1st overall losing the Conf final. Keith Primeau 168 with Stu Grimson 128. Wings win an amazing 62 games in the regular season.

96-97: 5 players, finished 5th overall Win Stanley cup. Martin Lapointe 167 with Darren McCarty 126. Joey Kocur return

after a 6 year abscence. Has 70 mins in 34 games.

97-98: 3 players, finished 3rd overall Win Stanley cup. Darren McCarty 157 with Martin Lapointe 106. Wings retain the Cup despite losing one of the best D men in the league , Vladimir Konstantinov career is ended by a car accident. Vlad played 6 years having amased over 800 pmns hitting 100+ pmns in all 6 season's.

98-99: 3 players, finished 6th overall going out in the 2nd round. Martin Lapointe 141 with Darren McCarty 108.

From 92-99 the Wings have 32 players having 100+pmns. They reach 3 finals win 2 Cups and 2 Presidents trophy's. Also a lose in a Conf final. Wings getting a more skillfull side mixing it with gritty play and not gooning it up as before.

Overall Reg season record Played 544 won 313 lost 160 drew 71.

99-00: 3 players, finished 2nd overall going out in the 2nd round. Martin Lapointe 121 with Chris Chelios 103.

00-01: 2 players, finished 3rd overall going out in the 1st round. Martin Lapointe 127 with Darren McCarty 123.

01-02: 2 players, finished 1st overall Win Stanley cup. 40 year old Chris Chelios leads the Wings in pmns in the regular

season with 126 and playoffs with 44. Brendan Shanahan the only other player over 100 with 118pmn. Detroits depth

is eviedent as they put out a 4th line of Luc Robitaille, Igor Larionov and Tomas Holmstrom in the playoffs.

02-03: 3 players, finished 3rd overall but go out in the !st round. Darren McCarty 138 with Brendan Shanahan 103.

03-04: Only Brendan Shanahan hits the 100+ mark with 117. Rookie Darryl Bootland has 74 in 22 games. Wings finish 1st overall but go out in the 2nd round.

05-06: 2 players, finish 1st overall again but 1st round exit in playoffs. Chris Chelios at 44 years old leads the team in pmns with 108 with Brendan Shanahan on 105.

06-07: For the first time in the modern era and not since the 61-62 season the Wings don't have any player reaching 100 pmns in the regular season. They finish 2nd overall and make the Conf finals much to the surprise of many die hard

Wings fans.

From 99-07 the Wings have just 13 players reaching the 100+ pmns. They have seen the roster become more top heavy with European players, but have a very skillful core of players. There is no element of goonery on the Wings these days, and not as much grit as they had in the 90's. Saying that they haven't finished outside a top 3 place in the regular season. Have 1 cup win with 3 Presidents trophy and a Conf final appearance last season. The regular season

record for the past 7 seasons is second to none. With 7 straight 100+ point tallies, this is a winning programme.

Overall reg season record Played 574 won 352 lost 135 drew 53 OTL 26 SOL 8.

My over riding question is this, taking our current roster as it stands at present. Who would you leave out if you could have Joey Kocur and Bob Probert in their heyday added to it? Would these be the difference from the Wings being a on the brink side to an unstoppable side? Would their style's actually hinder the current team? Maybe having just one of them on the roster would suit our current team, which one thou? Was Joey more of a deterrent to opposing teams than

Proby was? All if's and but's I know and everyone will have different views on it, but the overriding fact here is that we are more successful without having multiple penalty takers on the roster. But also an out and out enforcer on the roster helped us get back to back cups in the late 90's. The 01-02 Cup win was different, we had 10 future Hof's on the roster, I mean Krupp and Slegr were the 7/8 D men! So what do you guys think ?

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I don't think there will be a pattern for a couple reasons ... first, PIMs don't necessarily correllate to toughness (see Robert Lang). Second, obviously it takes more than toughness to win. Third, there is also a difference between toughness/grit and fighting ... we displayed toughness and grit in the playoffs last year, but not much fighting.

That said, to answer your question, I don't think we would need both Kocur and Probert in today's NHL, there aren't as many fights and unless these guys are skilled as well that's too much roster space. As for whose spot they take ... Drake's. I think we got him to fill that role, not so much the fighting, but the 4th line grit and toughness, as well as be a mentor to our more physical up-and-comers (Kopecky). Is he a better fit than Kocur or Probie? He doesn't bring the intimidation factor, but more skill. While there are games (and opponents) where I'd love to have a Kocur or Probie on the ice (where did Tootoo go?), I'm not sure that over 82 games they'd be as consistently valuable as a Drake.

Edited by lets go pavel

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There are different ways to interpret numbers. Regular season success, postseason success, etc... To me, it appears as if the most effective mix was having about 5 players who were consistently getting pims, for example the mid to late 90's. Now, if you want to base it purely on regular season stats, then going with the lower number of people getting penalites (2000's) is the way to go.

The question was posed if a young Probert and Kocur would fit on this team Of course they would. Probert spent the first year of his career on Detroit's top line with Yzerman. I believe he scored 29 goals one year. He wasn't a Peter Worrell goon, he could play. Kocur was as effective offensively but he was a good skater and a sound player. Who would they replace in the lineup? Hudler or Probert? Not a tough call for me. Kocur or Kopecky? Not a tough one.

Probert, Dats, Homer

Kocur, Zetts, ??????

AHHHH, one can only dream.....

Is he a better fit than Kocur or Probie? He doesn't bring the intimidation factor, but more skill.

Drake does NOT have more skill than Probert had. In the seasons he played full season in Detroit, he averaged over 15 goals per season. Drake has averaged 12 per season. (I'm not ripping on Drake, I like the signing)

Edited by therock48880

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At the end of the 85-86 season Detroit had 10 players with over 100 pmn on thier roster. 21 years later the Wings finished without a single player reaching that milestone. More worryingly for some is the fact that Lang and Schneider

topped the charts with 66pmns each. The interseting fact was that in 85-86 we finished dead last in the regular season

so missed the playoffs, where as last year we finished 2nd overall and made the conf finals. So I thought I would do a

little research to see if we could find some sort of pattern. I have grouped the facts in 7 year sections with our overall

position and playoff performance with the amount of 100+pmn takers for the year. The top and bottom takers are listed.

as well as any notable other facst ref the pmns. Hope you find it interesting and the memories come flooding back.

85-86: 10 Players, finished dead last overall. Joey Kocur 377 with Danny Gare 102. Barry Melrose had 70 in 14 games.

86-87: 8 Players, finished 11th overall and lost in Conf finals to the Oilers. Joey Kocur 276 with Shawn Burr 107. Basil McRae had 193 in 36 games.

87-88: 5 Players, finished 5th overall and lost in Conf final again to the Oilers. Bob Probert 398 with Doug Harlwood 130.

Both Kocur and Gallant had over 200 mins with Steve Martinson getting 84 in just 10 games, remember him?

88-89: 9 players, finished 10th overall going out in the 1st round. Gerard Gallant 230 with Lee Norwood 100.

89-90: 7 players, finished 3rd from bottom. Joey Kocur 268 with Torrie Robertson 112. Chris McRae had 45 in 7 games.

90-91: 6 players, finished 14th overall going out in the 1st round. Bob Probert 315 with rookie Keith Primeau 106.

91-92: 7 players, finished 3rd overall going out in the 2nd round. Bob Probert 276 with Shawn Burr & Brad McCrimmon on 118. New Russian D Vladimir Konstantinov has 172 pmn in his first season as a Wing.

So from 85 to 92 the Wings have 52 players having 100+ pmns with their highest finish being a 3rd place twice and reaching the conf finals twice as well. No one is taking liberties at the Joe and getting away with it but no silverware either. More goon than grit and skill I feel. Overall Reg season record Played 560 won 231 lost 256 drew 73.

92-93: 5 players, finished 5th overall going out in the 1st round. Bob Probert 292 with Vladimir Konstantinov 137. Jim Cummins had 58 in 7 games.

93-94: 7 players, finished 4th overall going out in the 1st round again. Bob Probert 275 with Paul Coffey 106. Wings score a league leading 356 goals.

94-95: This was the short 48 game league season. Only Konstantinov had over 100 pmn but a pro-rata see's the Wings having 5 players over the threshold. The Wings finished 1st overall and made the Stanley cup final losing to

the Devils.

95-96: 4 players, finished 1st overall losing the Conf final. Keith Primeau 168 with Stu Grimson 128. Wings win an amazing 62 games in the regular season.

96-97: 5 players, finished 5th overall Win Stanley cup. Martin Lapointe 167 with Darren McCarty 126. Joey Kocur return

after a 6 year abscence. Has 70 mins in 34 games.

97-98: 3 players, finished 3rd overall Win Stanley cup. Darren McCarty 157 with Martin Lapointe 106. Wings retain the Cup despite losing one of the best D men in the league , Vladimir Konstantinov career is ended by a car accident. Vlad played 6 years having amased over 800 pmns hitting 100+ pmns in all 6 season's.

98-99: 3 players, finished 6th overall going out in the 2nd round. Martin Lapointe 141 with Darren McCarty 108.

From 92-99 the Wings have 32 players having 100+pmns. They reach 3 finals win 2 Cups and 2 Presidents trophy's. Also a lose in a Conf final. Wings getting a more skillfull side mixing it with gritty play and not gooning it up as before.

Overall Reg season record Played 544 won 313 lost 160 drew 71.

99-00: 3 players, finished 2nd overall going out in the 2nd round. Martin Lapointe 121 with Chris Chelios 103.

00-01: 2 players, finished 3rd overall going out in the 1st round. Martin Lapointe 127 with Darren McCarty 123.

01-02: 2 players, finished 1st overall Win Stanley cup. 40 year old Chris Chelios leads the Wings in pmns in the regular

season with 126 and playoffs with 44. Brendan Shanahan the only other player over 100 with 118pmn. Detroits depth

is eviedent as they put out a 4th line of Luc Robitaille, Igor Larionov and Tomas Holmstrom in the playoffs.

02-03: 3 players, finished 3rd overall but go out in the !st round. Darren McCarty 138 with Brendan Shanahan 103.

03-04: Only Brendan Shanahan hits the 100+ mark with 117. Rookie Darryl Bootland has 74 in 22 games. Wings finish 1st overall but go out in the 2nd round.

05-06: 2 players, finish 1st overall again but 1st round exit in playoffs. Chris Chelios at 44 years old leads the team in pmns with 108 with Brendan Shanahan on 105.

06-07: For the first time in the modern era and not since the 61-62 season the Wings don't have any player reaching 100 pmns in the regular season. They finish 2nd overall and make the Conf finals much to the surprise of many die hard

Wings fans.

From 99-07 the Wings have just 13 players reaching the 100+ pmns. They have seen the roster become more top heavy with European players, but have a very skillful core of players. There is no element of goonery on the Wings these days, and not as much grit as they had in the 90's. Saying that they haven't finished outside a top 3 place in the regular season. Have 1 cup win with 3 Presidents trophy and a Conf final appearance last season. The regular season

record for the past 7 seasons is second to none. With 7 straight 100+ point tallies, this is a winning programme.

Overall reg season record Played 574 won 352 lost 135 drew 53 OTL 26 SOL 8.

My over riding question is this, taking our current roster as it stands at present. Who would you leave out if you could have Joey Kocur and Bob Probert in their heyday added to it? Would these be the difference from the Wings being a on the brink side to an unstoppable side? Would their style's actually hinder the current team? Maybe having just one of them on the roster would suit our current team, which one thou? Was Joey more of a deterrent to opposing teams than

Proby was? All if's and but's I know and everyone will have different views on it, but the overriding fact here is that we are more successful without having multiple penalty takers on the roster. But also an out and out enforcer on the roster helped us get back to back cups in the late 90's. The 01-02 Cup win was different, we had 10 future Hof's on the roster, I mean Krupp and Slegr were the 7/8 D men! So what do you guys think ?

:

Good job on digging up all these stats I agree without an enforcer the Wings top fowards get pounded game in and game out nobody is heald accountable for this. This is the Bettman NHL and it blows :angry:

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Holy s*it, good job. Yo u will now hear some of the most off the wall, amusing arguments from ppl that even after looking at this will insist that toughness (ie enforcer) have NOTHING to do with winning. it is comical, but i and i know a good ammount of others agree 100% with you. personally i would have no problem losing Hudler, Kopecky, Langfield, or whatever other waste of space 4th line forward they have up. (hudler being the exemption of 4th liner, i realize he isnt a 4th liner. hell, if i had to pick i would ship Franzen if need be, and iwould take a legit forcer over drake aswell. and again great research and stats. gj!

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Guest jaytan

The comparison is actually understated, because the penalties we get now have nothing to do with toughness. Most of Lang's penalties are due to him screwing up or being lazy. :lol: It's not roughing or fighting.

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Holy s*it, good job. Yo u will now hear some of the most off the wall, amusing arguments from ppl that even after looking at this will insist that toughness (ie enforcer) have NOTHING to do with winning. it is comical, but i and i know a good ammount of others agree 100% with you. personally i would have no problem losing Hudler, Kopecky, Langfield, or whatever other waste of space 4th line forward they have up. (hudler being the exemption of 4th liner, i realize he isnt a 4th liner. hell, if i had to pick i would ship Franzen if need be, and iwould take a legit forcer over drake aswell. and again great research and stats. gj!

Actually, according to these stats, as the penalty minutes decrease, the wins increase, bro.

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Actually, according to these stats, as the penalty minutes decrease, the wins increase, bro.

Until they decline too far, which causes No Cups. There's gotta be a balance between toughness and talent. That balance has been out of whack recently.

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Wow good info, I dont think that both would be a must on the current roster. It would help though...

Dont get me wrong, i love Huds... but a young Probie: his skill, and edge over Huds deterimination and lack of size. I would take Probie any day... He was a more round and sound player

With only one player possibly over 100 pims... Probie could be the enforcer in a way and would bring more of an edge to the current roster of the wings.

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Hope you find it interesting and the memories come flooding back.

Nice work.

I was curious about the numbers so I added total team minutes as well.

85-86: 2393

86-87: 2209

87-88: 2391

88-89: 2245

89-90: 2140

90-91: 1940

91-92: 2078

Total: 15396

AVG: 2199

92-93: 1832

93-94: 1775

94-95*: 932

95-96: 1551

96-97: 1582

97-98: 1346

98-99: 1202

Total: 10220

AVG: 1460

99-00: 1014

00-01: 1082

01-02: 1053

02-03: 1214

03-04: 966

05-06: 1103

06-07: 958

Total: 7390

AVG 1056

:crazy: and geez people complain about folks taking penalties nowadays :lol:

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:

Good job on digging up all these stats I agree without an enforcer the Wings top fowards get pounded game in and game out nobody is heald accountable for this. This is the Bettman NHL and it blows :angry:

How does Bettman have anything to do with the Wings not having "enforcers"?

Holy s*it, good job. Yo u will now hear some of the most off the wall, amusing arguments from ppl that even after looking at this will insist that toughness (ie enforcer) have NOTHING to do with winning. it is comical, but i and i know a good ammount of others agree 100% with you. personally i would have no problem losing Hudler, Kopecky, Langfield, or whatever other waste of space 4th line forward they have up. (hudler being the exemption of 4th liner, i realize he isnt a 4th liner. hell, if i had to pick i would ship Franzen if need be, and iwould take a legit forcer over drake aswell. and again great research and stats. gj!

So you would let go of a guy who will probably play 12-15 minutes a game, kills penalties on a regular basis, has decent size and can throw the body, and while he won’t be a 40-goal scorer anytime soon, he’s shown capability of putting the puck in the net and contributing offensively once in a while?

You’d let him go and want an “enforcer†who is just going to play 3 minutes a game and net only 3 goals a year and contribute almost nothing offensively?

That’s real smart there… :blink:

Again, we aren’t the Anaheim Ducks or the Calgary Flames. They win games and play a different type of game than we do. They are more dump-and-chase and play physical just about every minute of the game, while Detroit plays a combination of puck possession, dump-and-chase and trying to always work/skate hard.

Both playing styles have proved effective for both Anaheim and Detroit and they aren’t going to change anytime soon for either team.

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If you want to find a pattern, or "formula", if you will, for how many PIMs = Stanley Cup success, I think rather than look at all of our teams we should be looking at all of the SC-winners to see if there is a pattern between them ... but again, it takes a lot more than that to win a championship, and the real question isn't whether we need more PIMs or fighting majors but whether the players in question make us a better team ...

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