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Guest DetroitIan

Burke whining again.

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Yes, its totally within the rules, we all get that.

However, some of us (unlike yourself it appears) believe that offering to overpay by more than double or triple what a player is worth is not solid general managing.

you see, its sort of like dominos. you knock the first one down and, well..you get it right.

1 grossly overpaid player is all it takes to make all the other players with his numbers fall right into line.

do you feel that 4.2 mil is the new standard for a 45 point player?

do you realize that if that were so, then Robert Lang was a steal last season and that Dan Cleary ought to be making about 4 mil this season?

Does that not sound ridiculous to you?

Yeah, its within the rules. Doesn't mean it's good, sound business.

I give props to Lowe on this one. I am typically part of the bus here in Edmonton that says Lowe is a retard - but the guy is doing everything he can within the rules to get a player that he thinks will benefit the Oilers.

Is Penner worth 4.2 million based on his 45 point season last year? Absolutly not, but Lowe is not paying him that much because he got 45 points last year - he obviously thinks he has the potential to score upwards of 75 points. If he does - and it looks like he will at some point within the next 2 or 3 years, Lowe will have his 4.2 million dollar player.

Look, Edmonton has the cap space and the need for Penner - Burke failed to lock him up and even said in the article that the two sides were far apart in negotiations. Burke being pissing at Lowe for offering him a contract now is silly, he whines about the timing? Come off it man, Kevin Lowe and the rest of the NHL are not going to put there organizations on hold for the weekend just because you are being induced into the 'B.C. Hockey Hall of Fame' (whoooeee). Lowe can make the offer whenever he wants, I really don't think he should have waited till Burke was good and ready. And why should he have notified him that the offer was coming?? So Burke could have scrambled to sign Penner quicker? Give me a break. Kevin Lowe did the right thing, and I think we've all heard Burke cry like this before - its starting to get silly.

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I wish some company would give me an offer sheet raise like this one!

Kudos to the pawn Penner in this one! he wins all around.

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Burke said he wasn't actually angry at the fact there was an offer sheet, but rather the amount of money offered - Penner will go from making $450,000 a season to $4.25 million a year.

oh sweet poetic justice.

Not so fun when you're on the other side of overpaying to bring a player to your team.

Maybe if he hadn't overpaid to take Bertuzzi and Schneider from the Wings, he would've had more money to throw at Penner.

Hmm, Bert at $4 mill or Penner at $4.25?

Of the two, Penner has the greater chance at actually becoming the power forward Bertuzzi once was than Bertuzzi himself does. Where Penner has potential, Bertuzzi has a back injury and baggage.

Previously I didn't have an opinion on the RFA offers, but because this is giving Burke a helping of his own medicine and punishing him for his overpayment on UFAs, I'm loving it.

EDIT: And everyone keeps referencing Penners massive raise based on his salary last season. Wasn't that his first full season in the NHL and therefore limited under the cap? If so, then the $450,00 isn't a reflection of his true market value any more than Lowe's offer is.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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Okay, so what if Kindl turns out to be a star and after a couple seasons he's putting up big numbers for a dman and he's making 500K and someone offers him 4.4 million per season. Are you going to sing the same tune? Burke admitted he understands the idea of utilizing the offer sheet, but face reality, 4.2 mil for a guy who had 45 points last season and was only making 450K? That's ******* absurd and that's what Burke said he thinks is wrong with this. He stated that it wasn't the offer sheet rather the ridiculous overpayment by Lowe.

Burke may be an ass and a whiner, but he proved everybody wrong by building a cup champ in how many years in Anaheim? And IMO, he is right and so is Darcy Regeir when they say the RFA offer sheet will not work and is only bad for the sport. I agree with them both 100%

If that happens, I'd mostly be disappointed that Holland couldn't get a deal done and didn't see this coming.

People on this forum were talking about this exact move for chrissakes. It shouldn't have come as a surprise to Burke. We all saw he put himself against the cap on his spending spree. He did this to himself.

Burke is in no position to comment on ridiculous overpayment. Because Penner is an RFA, Lowe has to overpay for at least two reasons. First is to make it worth Penner's while to sign the offer and leave Anaheim (who's pretty well positioned to repeat for the Cup) for Edmonton. Second is he has to pay him enough that it really puts the hurt on Burke. If he offered Penner $3 mill a year, then it's a no-brainer for Burke to match. He had to make it painful to match if he really wants a chance at getting Penner. Then hopefully in a season or two, Penner will be worth the money. It's a gamble on a young player.

To me this is just a lesson in locking up your RFAs earlier and not overpaying for the UFAs. I have to give Holland props for this one. At the time I thought it was a bad idea for him to lock up Dats when he did and for so long, but it was the right move. And he didn't get involved in the spending spree that went on a few weeks back.

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Guest GordieSid&Ted

If that happens, I'd mostly be disappointed that Holland couldn't get a deal done and didn't see this coming.

People on this forum were talking about this exact move for chrissakes. It shouldn't have come as a surprise to Burke. We all saw he put himself against the cap on his spending spree. He did this to himself.

Burke is in no position to comment on ridiculous overpayment. Because Penner is an RFA, Lowe has to overpay for at least two reasons. First is to make it worth Penner's while to sign the offer and leave Anaheim (who's pretty well positioned to repeat for the Cup) for Edmonton. Second is he has to pay him enough that it really puts the hurt on Burke. If he offered Penner $3 mill a year, then it's a no-brainer for Burke to match. He had to make it painful to match if he really wants a chance at getting Penner. Then hopefully in a season or two, Penner will be worth the money. It's a gamble on a young player.

To me this is just a lesson in locking up your RFAs earlier and not overpaying for the UFAs. I have to give Holland props for this one. At the time I thought it was a bad idea for him to lock up Dats when he did and for so long, but it was the right move. And he didn't get involved in the spending spree that went on a few weeks back.

I guess one could simply fault Holland for not locking the RFA up. IMO, that's sort of unfair though. If the enticement of a potential windfall raise via the RFA offer sheet is out there, then what motivation is there for an agent to advise his player to sign without at least testing the waters? IMO, it takes the ball out of Holland's hands. People are going to unfairly blame him without knowing the entire story. Would it be fair to blame Holland if he offered a great contract yet said player refused to sign it and tested RFA and got a ridiculously better offer?

Of course maybe i'm worrying way too much about this but in the "ME" era, with these crazy RFA offers I don't see why any RFA would sign without waiting to see if somebody bit and gave them a serious overpayment offer. Nothing Holland can do there except way overpay to avoid the situation altogether. Doesn't seem right to me.

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I guess one could simply fault Holland for not locking the RFA up. IMO, that's sort of unfair though. If the enticement of a potential windfall raise via the RFA offer sheet is out there, then what motivation is there for an agent to advise his player to sign without at least testing the waters? IMO, it takes the ball out of Holland's hands. People are going to unfairly blame him without knowing the entire story. Would it be fair to blame Holland if he offered a great contract yet said player refused to sign it and tested RFA and got a ridiculously better offer?

Of course maybe i'm worrying way too much about this but in the "ME" era, with these crazy RFA offers I don't see why any RFA would sign without waiting to see if somebody bit and gave them a serious overpayment offer. Nothing Holland can do there except way overpay to avoid the situation altogether. Doesn't seem right to me.

Blame definitely falls on the player too, because ultimately it was his choice.

Mainly I think that RFA deals like this will still be rare enough occurences that they wont' have the impact you're afraid they will.

A lot of factors have to be involved. A GM like Lowe who's bold enough and has cap room to overpay and give up the picks. A GM like Burke who has been unable to sign his RFAs, but spent so much on UFAs that he's limited his cap room. And a player worth taking the risk of overpaying and giving up picks for.

It may drive the price up for RFAs some. But as someone said in an earlier post, a decent arguement could be made that it would have the opposite effect of what you're suggesting. RFAs will get more in negotiations, but GMs may start allocating more of the cap to signing those players, essentially treating them more like UFAs now, and keeping them on the team. Currently many GM's seem to take signing RFAs for granted and therefore blow ridiculous money on UFAs.

I see more cap money to RFAs and less left for UFAs as a good thing, as it should lead to less player turnover.

EDIT: And honestly, if I were Penner I'd be pissed that Burke spent $4 million bringing in Bertuzzi, who has similar qualities. But is being cheap ass in negotiations in re-signing his young RFA.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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Brian Burke - "Edmonton have offered a grossly inflated salary for a player..."

...so what does Penner think of this comment by his GM? I would be offended by this, so Burke says that the offer tendered in grossly inflated, so Penner isn't worth much to Burke then...

...even if they match the offer, I'd be demanding a trade...

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Meh. I can see why Burke is pissed. Edmonton's inflated offers will have an effect on the market. But in all honestly it's not Edmonton who should be given a dress down for ******* the market but rather Philly and, to an extent, the NYR. Philly's early summer pick-ups absolutely turned the market on their head. Would any of us believed a year ago, or even at the end of the playoffs, how much Markov would be asking for? Or how much any of the FA's got?

Brian Burke - "Edmonton have offered a grossly inflated salary for a player..."

...so what does Penner think of this comment by his GM? I would be offended by this, so Burke says that the offer tendered in grossly inflated, so Penner isn't worth much to Burke then...

...even if they match the offer, I'd be demanding a trade...

Really? You don't think a ten time increase in salary based on a 45 pt season isn't inflation?!? Promise or no, that second year player is being offered almost twice what Z makes, and Z has infinite promise.

Edited by Drake_Marcus

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Meh. I can see why Burke is pissed. Edmonton's inflated offers will have an effect on the market. But in all honestly it's not Edmonton who should be given a dress down for ******* the market but rather Philly and, to an extent, the NYR. Philly's early summer pick-ups absolutely turned the market on their head. Would any of us believed a year ago, or even at the end of the playoffs, how much Markov would be asking for? Or how much any of the FA's got?

Really? You don't think a ten time increase in salary based on a 45 pt season isn't inflation?!? Promise or no, that second year player is being offered almost twice what Z makes, and Z has infinite promise.

...I don't think he is worth it, but he has to be offended that his own GM says he isn't worth what someone else says he is. Sure, when he signs the deal, Zets will be guaranteed $7MM for sure, and yeah, that is going to ruin the market, but hey, they are doing it to themselves, it's not the players this time, it's the owners greed. Soon the cap will either be voted out or they will have an emergency vote to raise the cap twice as much as it is supposed to go up each year. Somewhere, they owners are going to shoot themselves in the foot for all of this...

...but to hae your own GM say that you aren't worth what someone is offering you, then I'd be a little upset...

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Really? You don't think a ten time increase in salary based on a 45 pt season isn't inflation?!? Promise or no, that second year player is being offered almost twice what Z makes, and Z has infinite promise.

It's definitely inflated, but I haven't been able to find an answer to my question yet. Wasn't Penner's salary restricted by the cap because it was only his first full season in the league?

He's not worth what Lowe's offering, but the $450,000 isn't fair market value of what he was worth either.

Z is also a bad reference point, as he's been in a long term contract and is grossly underpaid.

To me I find it funny that Burke was willing to throw $4 mill at Bertuzzi but nowhere near that for Penner.

And it may have some increase on the RFA market, but unlike the UFAs, the RFA market has a built in regulator against inflation. The more you offer a player, the more picks you give up, so he better damn well be worth the gamble.

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Burke overpaying for UFAs like Schneider and Bertuzzi is classy, but Lowe's isn't?

Good point, especially on Bertuzzi.

Like I said before: if Burke could put his man-love for Bertuzzi aside just once in his career, than maybe the Ducks would be ok right now.

Call it stupid if you want, but I think this thing between Burke and Bertuzzi is ridiculous. 4 million for a player who only played 15 games? Not to mention he's known as one of the biggest thugs in hockey, comes with more emotional baggage than any player in the league right now, and has injury problems now also. I mean, come on.

The Bertuzzi signing just released a tornado in Burke's office, and thank's to that, will either lose a great young power forward, or be way over the cap and the amount that the Ducks organization is only willing to spend. It's his own fault.

This whole fiasco should put an end to the "Brian Burke is the greatest GM in the world and everything he touches turns to gold" thing that keeps being said across the hockey world.

edited for grammar

Edited by Kp-Wings

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Ok, lets look at what wouldve happened had Anaheim not spent money on Schneider and Bertuzzi, and just sat around and waited for Selanne and Niedermayer's decisions rather than go for replacements like Burke did. Thats 9.5 million they have back, in addition to the appr 2mill they currently have...giving them a total of about 11.5 mill in cap space. So while every good free agent gets scooped up, they continue to wait...and wait...and wait. News then comes out that Selanne and Neidermayer are indeed retiring...one big ol' problem though, you now have a ton of money but all the good free agents are GONE now! So pray tell...what the hell would they be expected to do then? I think its safe to say that Penner was asking for somewhere in the 3 - 3.5 range from Anaheim, or else he wouldve been re-signed a long time ago. So lets, knock that cap room down to about 8 lets say. So how do they go about replacing two key losses in Selanne and Neidermayer now? If they were to give 4 million + to Markov, you'd all be laughing and criticizing the hell out of it and you know it. Sign Jeff O'neill? Please. I think you guys look at Holland and his usual "wait and see" game, and think every GM is supposed to be like that. Burke chose to go after what he felt were the best potential replacements immediately, rather than risk settling with much less quality acquisitions if those 2 retired. Also you had better believe with the way Burke jumped on Schnieder, that Neidermayer probably gave him the impression that it was 90% he's retiring. Now with him having possible second thoughts, its a cluttered situation. They could have one of the best defenses in recent memory...but it may cost them Penner. I dont like Schneider, but i agree with the notion that Burke spent that money to replace Neidermayer.

If you think he overpaid for Bertuzzi, i agree, but keep things realistic...its really not by more than 500k. I think the second year is the questionable part about the deal.

Wait a sec...i didnt even do my math right! If Neidermayer retired under my hypothetical scenario, they'd have an additional 6 mill! Now we're talking about 14 mill to use on the current free agent pool. Dont spend it all in one place!!

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Ok, lets look at what wouldve happened had Anaheim not spent money on Schneider and Bertuzzi, and just sat around and waited for Selanne and Niedermayer's decisions rather than go for replacements like Burke did. Thats 9.5 million they have back, in addition to the appr 2mill they currently have...giving them a total of about 11.5 mill in cap space. So while every good free agent gets scooped up, they continue to wait...and wait...and wait. News then comes out that Selanne and Neidermayer are indeed retiring...one big ol' problem though, you now have a ton of money but all the good free agents are GONE now! So pray tell...what the hell would they be expected to do then? I think its safe to say that Penner was asking for somewhere in the 3 - 3.5 range from Anaheim, or else he wouldve been re-signed a long time ago. So lets, knock that cap room down to about 8 lets say. So how do they go about replacing two key losses in Selanne and Neidermayer now? If they were to give 4 million + to Markov, you'd all be laughing and criticizing the hell out of it and you know it. Sign Jeff O'neill? Please. I think you guys look at Holland and his usual "wait and see" game, and think every GM is supposed to be like that. Burke chose to go after what he felt were the best potential replacements immediately, rather than risk settling with much less quality acquisitions if those 2 retired. Also you had better believe with the way Burke jumped on Schnieder, that Neidermayer probably gave him the impression that it was 90% he's retiring. Now with him having possible second thoughts, its a cluttered situation. They could have one of the best defenses in recent memory...but it may cost them Penner. I dont like Schneider, but i agree with the notion that Burke spent that money to replace Neidermayer.

If you think he overpaid for Bertuzzi, i agree, but keep things realistic...its really not by more than 500k. I think the second year is the questionable part about the deal.

Wait a sec...i didnt even do my math right! If Neidermayer retired under my hypothetical scenario, they'd have an additional 6 mill! Now we're talking about 14 mill to use on the current free agent pool. Dont spend it all in one place!!

I totally understand the Schneider move. It looked like Niedermayer was retiring and he wanted to fill that spot and Matheiu was available.

But paying $4 mill for Bertuzzi for two years when you're unwilling to pay 3 to 3.5 for Penner is a big mistake in my book. It's not just the amount (though Bert is now his highest paid forward), it's also the two years.

He could've locked Penner up and didn't. Had he done that, there's really no need for Bertuzzi. Plus practically his whole team are UFAs at the end of the '09 season. Burke was blinded by his man love for Bert, and now he's paying for it.

Edited by haroldsnepsts

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I totally understand the Schneider move. It looked like Niedermayer was retiring and he wanted to fill that spot and Matheiu was available.

But paying $4 mill for Bertuzzi for two years when you're unwilling to pay 3 to 3.5 for Penner is a big mistake in my book. It's not just the amount (though Bert is now his highest paid forward), it's also the two years.

He could've locked Penner up and didn't. Had he done that, there's really no need for Bertuzzi. Plus practically his whole team are UFAs at the end of the '09 season. Burke was blinded by his man love for Bert, and now he's paying for it.

Its hard to say because we dont really know what Penner's side was asking for. Penner is very Bertuzzi-like, so you know he's Burke's kind of player, it had to be something pretty high for him not to be already re-signed. If Penner wanted 3.5 I could see why Burke would try hard to bring that down knowing that Perry and especially Getzlaf will be keying on that number for comparison purposes when theyre up to be re-signed. If Burke was this overspending crazy man like people are making him out to be, he wouldve just given Penner what he wanted and given no mind to Getzlaf and Perry! 4 million for 1 year for Bertuzzi is a tad high but i dont think its unreasonable at all, that second year i admit though is extremely risky.

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Its hard to say because we dont really know what Penner's side was asking for. Penner is very Bertuzzi-like, so you know he's Burke's kind of player, it had to be something pretty high for him not to be already re-signed. If Penner wanted 3.5 I could see why Burke would try hard to bring that down knowing that Perry and especially Getzlaf will be keying on that number for comparison purposes when theyre up to be re-signed. If Burke was this overspending crazy man like people are making him out to be, he wouldve just given Penner what he wanted and given no mind to Getzlaf and Perry! 4 million for 1 year for Bertuzzi is a tad high but i dont think its unreasonable at all, that second year i admit though is extremely risky.

I only think Burke was this overspending crazy guy when it came to Bertuzzi, and to a lesser degree Schneider because he was filling a large hole on his blueline.

IMO, $4 mill for 2 years for a guy who played 15 games due to a herniated disk is ridiculous. His health is a major question mark and he was largely a non-factor during the playoffs with Detroit. It's not like he showed a lot of glimpses of the pre-Moore incident Bertuzzi out there.

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I only think Burke was this overspending crazy guy when it came to Bertuzzi, and to a lesser degree Schneider because he was filling a large hole on his blueline.

IMO, $4 mill for 2 years for a guy who played 15 games due to a herniated disk is ridiculous. His health is a major question mark and he was largely a non-factor during the playoffs with Detroit. It's not like he showed a lot of glimpses of the pre-Moore incident Bertuzzi out there.

I see where you're coming from, but I dont really think the word "ridiculous" fits though because it COULD very well pay off. To me its not hard to imagine Bertuzzi getting back to 35 goals. We dont really know what he'll bring, thats why i deem it be risky rather than just an all out ridiculous move...as the potential for it to pay off is there. Its not like these other signings where an average player is getting twice his worth.

Oh, for the record, I think the whole "classless" thing by Burke is silly. Lowe didnt do anything wrong. But I dont have a problem with him speaking his mind, as im sure theres some other GMs that probably agree with him.

Edited by Lou_Siffer

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I completely agree with Burke. The NHL has screwed itself yet again. Look at the salaries of Drury, Gomez, Briere, etc. This league is an absolute joke.

How is that agreeing with Burke? Drury, Gomez and Briere were all UFAs.

Paying $4 mill for Bertuzzi and $5.6 for Scheider, Burke is as guilty as anyone when it comes to UFAs.

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To me this is just a lesson in locking up your RFAs earlier and not overpaying for the UFAs. I have to give Holland props for this one. At the time I thought it was a bad idea for him to lock up Dats when he did and for so long, but it was the right move. And he didn't get involved in the spending spree that went on a few weeks back.

:clap: Indeed.

What's even more annoying is that he wanted to know earier and then said" It could have waited until Monday" after the hall of fame induction ceremony. He is just angry and doesn't make sense.

Exactly. I mean come on- no one works on B.C Hockey Hall of Fame weekend. :lol:

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It's definitely inflated, but I haven't been able to find an answer to my question yet. Wasn't Penner's salary restricted by the cap because it was only his first full season in the league?

He's not worth what Lowe's offering, but the $450,000 isn't fair market value of what he was worth either.

Z is also a bad reference point, as he's been in a long term contract and is grossly underpaid.

To me I find it funny that Burke was willing to throw $4 mill at Bertuzzi but nowhere near that for Penner.

And it may have some increase on the RFA market, but unlike the UFAs, the RFA market has a built in regulator against inflation. The more you offer a player, the more picks you give up, so he better damn well be worth the gamble.

I agree that Z is underpaid. But not that it's a bad comparison. Z's contract was based on his initial performance in the NHL, not his potential. Players rarely get a potential based pay scheme from non-desperate clubs. Z didn't rock out a 80pt season his second year so he didn't get 5 mill a year on his contract. Seems fair to me from a business perspective. They expect Z to be huge, he's shown it last season. Accordingly he'll be getting a nice fat pay raise. Production leads to $$. Potential leads to interest.

Game changing potential or shear desperation can change that last part of course. For example, had Crosby became an RFA franchises would have mortgaged their futures to lure him to their club. Of course it'd be a sweet ass investment given how awesome the kid is, but he'd still have garnered insanely high offers.

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Burke should have just brought him to arbitration, shame on Burke

How was Vanek overpaid compared to the going rate? Didn't TWO offer him that deal?

In my opinion the best timing for Lowe to make this offer, is the worst timing for Burke to have this offer made

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It's definitely inflated, but I haven't been able to find an answer to my question yet. Wasn't Penner's salary restricted by the cap because it was only his first full season in the league?

Penner was making the league minimum. But to answer your question, entry-level contracts are capped at $850K.

Oh and not bad for a guy that wasn't drafted.

Edited by vangvace

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