Holland Speaks About Offer Sheets

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I cant beleive I forgot Chris Dingman! I used to like him back in 04. Does he still play in the NHL? I havent heard anything about him in a while.

My point was , you need tough players to win cups. Everyone I named was a tough player. Most of the runner ups for the stanley cup had tough players. You dont need to be a cavemen, but being able to drop the gloves and still play the game is important to teams morale and if they feel safe when there playing. Zetterberg and Datsyuk felt safer with Holmstrom on there line , imagine if they had a guy like Asham or Neil playing on there team? (I know we wont get Neil , just throwing out a name)

925000 per year. So yes , I'd give Asham that

Forget about Dingbat. Calling him an enforcer is like calling me Jou Louis. That guy was the worst fighter in the league for a tough guy. All he'd do is grab and hold on for dear life. As for Asham, I wouldn't really label him an enforcer, but he can hold his own with anybody, and is skilled enough to satisfy all the naysayers on this board who don't want roster spots to go to tough guys. He'd be a great acquisition, but I haven't heard Holland even mention his name.

I remember watching Kocur eyeing up the opposition throughout the playoffs just after the whistle blew to stop the play - the opposition would look the other way

Kocur was probably the #1 most underrated fighter/enforcer during his playing days...Thank God that beer league he was playing in kept him in shape for his NHL return; who can forget that great backhand shot over a sprawling Hextall?

I don't know how you can call Kocur underrated. Everyone has him ranked as one of the 10 best fighters in NHL history, and definitely one of the most feared. Having him on the bench for a few seasons was the last time this team came close to having an enforcer.

[eva unit zero 271]

Your splitting hairs with that 17K. Now that you have 1.85M in a 25 point player what do you pay Flippula and Cleary in '09 when we have to resign them?

Asham for 925k per year is a good deal. However, Asham would never sign for that considering he made more than that last season. Asham will likely be looking at 1.5m-2m when he signs this summer.

EDIT: That said, there's no guarantee Cleary doesn't return to his prior form; remember, last year was his BEST SEASON EVER, and his career average for eight seasons (not including 6 games in 97-98) is 59 games, and 8-13-21, with 32 PIM, INCLUDING last year. If Cleary goes back to that, he's not worth more than Asham.

Edited August 5, 2007 by eva unit zero

[Lou_Siffer 1]

McCarty was not a true enforcer, and was at best a light heavyweight. Avery is a middleweight, and he has yet to win a Cup so I am baffled by his inclusion here.[/font]

At best a light heavyweight? Nah, there's no argument that he was that. McCarty was a light heavyweight, or an at best bottom tier heavyweight. He's one of those tweeners like Brad May.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

At best a light heavyweight? Nah, there's no argument that he was that. McCarty was a light heavyweight, or an at best bottom tier heavyweight. He's one of those tweeners like Brad May.

I agree that McCarty was one of those tweeners, but only for the late part of his career in Detroit. When he first came into the league he was dynamite, and held his own against all the top enfocers in the league. He won just about every fight in his first year or two in the league.

[eva unit zero 271]

I agree that McCarty was one of those tweeners, but only for the late part of his career in Detroit. When he first came into the league he was dynamite, and held his own against all the top enfocers in the league. He won just about every fight in his first year or two in the league.

The only real fighter he fougt was Joey Kocur, once. Most of his fights were against guys like Stephane Quintal, Paul Kruse, Ronnie Stern, and Dean Kennedy, who weren't heavyweights at all.

[DreamsofHope 2]

This thread makes me laugh.... First someone posted that it was interesting that Kronwall was a core player.... and then everyone freaked out like that person had said Kronwall was horrible or something. Then out of nowhere, the Kronwall arguement turned into an enforcer arguement. Ha ha. Wow. This thread gave me a good chuckle.

No bashing to anyone who said anything. I enjoyed reading it, just interesting how it took such sudden turns. It seems like this thread became the, I have something to say so I'm going to say it here thread.

[Viperar 16]

i knew the dats deal would be a hell of a signing all along. Feels good to see it so

[WingNut199 0]

This thread makes me laugh.... First someone posted that it was interesting that Kronwall was a core player.... and then everyone freaked out like that person had said Kronwall was horrible or something. Then out of nowhere, the Kronwall arguement turned into an enforcer arguement. Ha ha. Wow. This thread gave me a good chuckle.

No bashing to anyone who said anything. I enjoyed reading it, just interesting how it took such sudden turns. It seems like this thread became the, I have something to say so I'm going to say it here thread.

Yeah, its funny I was going to say the same thing! This was a great article that had NOTHING to do with enforcers but after spending so much time on these boards I'm not surprised that everyone is having the enforcer debate haha

[eva unit zero 271]

Yeah, its funny I was going to say the same thing! This was a great article that had NOTHING to do with enforcers but after spending so much time on these boards I'm not surprised that everyone is having the enforcer debate haha

And all within a page.

Now, I know a large part of the threadjack was my fault...but let's get back on topic!!

[Kp-Wings 3]

[/font] [/font]

The only real fighter he fougt was Joey Kocur, once. Most of his fights were against guys like Stephane Quintal, Paul Kruse, Ronnie Stern, and Dean Kennedy, who weren't heavyweights at all.

Paul Kruse had 1074 PIM in only 423 NHL games. I consider that good numbers for him. Plus, the guy was a great fighter for only being 6'0 even.

To say you can't win with an enforcer is stupid, for those who have said it. As mentioned, Tampa Bay had both Roy and Dingman on their 2004 Cup team, and both of them were roster regulars. Neither of them did anything else but fight, and in the long run it didn't hurt Tampa, since they still won the Cup that year anyways.

There are plenty of teams that manage to win Stanley Cup's with full time enforcers. Here's a list of teams who have won the Cup with numerous enforcers on their rosters, who did play full time during the playoffs.

*Note that I am including the guys who usually play that role. Some guys, like Adam Graves for New York, I left off the list because they were scorers for the most part*

Pittsburgh Penguins: 1991-1992

Bob Errey

Troy Loney

Gordie Roberts

Ulf Samulesson

Grant Jennings

Montreal Canadiens: 1992-1993

Kevin Haller

Lyle Odelein

Todd Ewen

Mario Roberge

New York Rangers: 1993-1994

Jeff Beukeboom

Jay Wells

Nick Kypreos

Colorado: 1995-1996

Chris Simon

Warren Rychel

New Jersey: 2002-2003

Turner Stevenson

Colin White

Jim McKenzie

Some of these guys did put up decent scoring numbers at times in their careers, but not at when they were on the teams listed above. Most of these guys were on these teams for one reason: to fight people, not to score points. That I consider an enforcer.

Having an enforcer is very important to a team's success. Sure, guys don't fight a whole lot in the playoffs, but it's not totally out of the question. Plus, enforcers are good for protecting players in the regular season, which is when their roles are most important.

If the Wings had an enforcer, perhaps Brad Stuart wouldn't have found it upon himself to crosscheck Zetterberg from behind, seriously injuring his back. It's all speculation, yes, but it's not a total shot in the dark. Enforcers do prevent that kind of stuff from happening. Not all the time, but most of the time it does help matters in some way.

edited for grammar

Edited August 5, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[yankeebaddabing 0]

Wat to go kenny, keep up the good work!!

[superstarsingh 23]

Thats our boy Kenny, the way things should be done.

[Konnan511 1,736]

Does anyone actually see Kenny making an offer to any of the RFA of this year or even next...hopefully Lids makes good on his word of league minimum then that way Kenny can offer some of these Penguin boys top dollar when they become RFAs :-p

[Guest Crymson]

Because guys like McCarty and Joe Kocur never stepped it up in the playoffs right?

To win the stanley cup , you need some kind of enforcer. Look at Anaheim , hell Carolina has Craig Adams , Tampa had Andre Roy , New Jersey had Oliwa , we had McCarty and Avery , the avs had Scott Parker , NJ had Oliwa , The Stars had Craig Ludwig and a couple other guys , we had Kocur , Lapointe , McCarty back in the glory days.

I assume you refer to Parros here when you speak of Anaheim. Parros barely played and in all did virtually nil throughout the playoffs. Craig Adams played an extremely small part in Carolina's Cup run last year, Roy did very little, Oliwa did very little. That those teams who won Cups had enforcers does not mean that the enforcers mattered in the playoffs; indeed, they didn't. Who is Scott Parker?

McCarty was an unusual enforcer--he could score. Lapointe was not an enforcer. Avery never played in the playoffs for us, and I doubt anyone was really scared of him.