A case for Nicklas Lidstrom

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Fedorov, in his prime, was the best European forward in the NHL ever. Yes, ever. Forsberg, Jagr, Kurri, Bure, none of them could match the all around game he possessed.

After that, I'd go down the list of Forsberg, Kurri, Bure, then Jagr. Jagr has had great seasons under his belt, but his so bad defensivily then he cannot be compared in the same league as the others. Forsberg, Kurri, and even Bure all had a 10 times better defensive game then Jagr.

Plus, at various times in their careers, they all scored just as much or even more points than Jagr, and none of them came with the pompus attitude that Jagr has. Just shows that Jagr is not the best European forward, and he's barely even a top 5 candidate.

As for top 5 all time European players, I'd rate as follows:

1. Lidstrom

2. Fedorov

3. Hasek

4. Forsberg and Bure tied

5. Kurri

I love Bure, but how is he a better defensive player than Jagr. Also, as good as Fedorov and Forsberg were defensively, if I were starting a team, I'd take Jagr in his prime over both of them. He's an offensive machine both in scoring goals and tallying assists. As for his attitude, Fedorov, Hasek, and Forsberg have never been known to have great attitude either, but I don't see what that has to do with all-time ranking. Jagr is 2nd on my list behind only Lidstrom.

[eva unit zero 271]

I love Bure, but how is he a better defensive player than Jagr. Also, as good as Fedorov and Forsberg were defensively, if I were starting a team, I'd take Jagr in his prime over both of them. He's an offensive machine both in scoring goals and tallying assists. As for his attitude, Fedorov, Hasek, and Forsberg have never been known to have great attitude either, but I don't see what that has to do with all-time ranking. Jagr is 2nd on my list behind only Lidstrom.

Fedorov was one of the better offensive players at his position in the league in his prime, and ALSO was one of the best DEFENSIVE players at his position. That's insane. You don't see that combination very much. Of course, the reason the Wings won so much during the 90s is that they had three players who fit that description in Yzerman, Fedorov, and Lidstrom.

[SweWings 45]

Mikita achieved that when being a one team player was far more common because of the way free agency worked.

Which is why I said it was nice - not spectacular. Besides, it was on the 'Hawks, give him a break.

[Bluedevils_13 0]

Yeah and how often do you see a player who could show up to a skills competition of the best players in the world and flat out take every event if he wanted too...(Fedorov)

(I tried to quote someone from above, but I'm to lazy to go back and add the quote)

Edited August 13, 2007 by Bluedevils_13

[BeeRYCE 2]

It's tough, but I hate when people say Jagr was only good with Lemieux at his side. I wouldn't say Jagr is better, but I wouldn't say Lidstrom is better. Jagr has steadily been a top 3 offensive player throughout his entire career, and is still going strong.

He has 5 Art Ross trophies, a Hart, and 3 Pearsons. Every single Art Ross has been without the aide of Lemieux. People decline Jagr's overall skill because of his poor attitude, but that shouldn't justify his credentials.

[eva unit zero 271]

It's tough, but I hate when people say Jagr was only good with Lemieux at his side. I wouldn't say Jagr is better, but I wouldn't say Lidstrom is better. Jagr has steadily been a top 3 offensive player throughout his entire career, and is still going strong.

Jagr was a top three offensive player from 95-01, as well as in 06. Most of those years were spent with an established elite-level linemate.

He has 5 Art Ross trophies, a Hart, and 3 Pearsons. Every single Art Ross has been without the aide of Lemieux.

Not true. He won in 2001 with Lemieux, and he won in 98 with Ron Francis.

People decline Jagr's overall skill because of his poor attitude, but that shouldn't justify his credentials.

People do it to Fedorov all the time. It's fair to do it to Jagr if it's fair to be done to Fedorov, especially given Jagr has had far more attitude problems than Fedorov.

[Opie 308]

Besides playing good-great d at times what is the difference between Jagr and Feds.

Both are unbelievably gifted players with attitude issues. Just because one used to wear the winged wheel doesn't mean that there is a ton of difference between the two.

Jagr's numbers will go down as some of the best numbers in the history of the game, we're talking top 50 offensive numbers of all time.

His career has been more consistent than Feds.

But back to the point:

If I am starting a franchise and the task at hand is to pick one European player to build my team around without a doubt it is Lids, Hasek, Forsberg. In that order.

Lids defense, consistency, overall play, and great leadership qualities make him a natural first selection.

Hasek and Forsberg it is all about skill level. With lids it is all about the whole package.

[eva unit zero 271]

Besides playing good-great d at times what is the difference between Jagr and Feds.

Both are unbelievably gifted players with attitude issues. Just because one used to wear the winged wheel doesn't mean that there is a ton of difference between the two.

Jagr's numbers will go down as some of the best numbers in the history of the game, we're talking top 50 offensive numbers of all time.

His career has been more consistent than Feds.

I would totally disagree that Jagr has been more consistent. Fedorov has consistently posted numbers between .75 and 1 PPG almost every season for the past decade. Before that his numbers were higher, but part of that was the fact that scoring was up about 40% around the league as compared to the 90s. And when Fedorov's numbers were higher is actually when Jagr's numbers were lower...proving that Fedorov has had more of a consistent offensive output level. Jagr had a very high peak in the late 90s, but for the first part of this decade was considered washed up as his point totals were drastically down from what he was putting up.

[Opie 308]

Eva,

usually I just read your posts and nod along in agreement, but when has Jagr ever been washed up.

Towards the end of Wash and the start or NYR he may have been in a lull or a down time for his numbers but washed up, I am not so sure about that.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Homerism aside, Lidstrom is far and away the better player than Jagr. The fact that people try to legitimize that argument is ridiculous.

[evil204 4]

I was just wondering.... how long has Lidstrom been considered a superstar in the NHL? I wasn't a Wings fan in the 90s, and watching the 97 and 98 championship DVDs, I didn't get the sense that Lidstrom was popular or that he was recognized for his play. I figured people didn't really notice him for a long time because of his lack of physical play and things like that... Jagr has probably been well-regarded since he came into the NHL because he's always been a great scorer.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

It's tough, but I hate when people say Jagr was only good with Lemieux at his side. I wouldn't say Jagr is better, but I wouldn't say Lidstrom is better. Jagr has steadily been a top 3 offensive player throughout his entire career, and is still going strong.

He has 5 Art Ross trophies, a Hart, and 3 Pearsons. Every single Art Ross has been without the aide of Lemieux. People decline Jagr's overall skill because of his poor attitude, but that shouldn't justify his credentials.

I wouldn't put so much weight into Art Ross trophies, because those trophies came when Gretzky and Lemieux were retired or way past their prime. Thanks to those 2 guys, a lot of great players never won the scoring title, such as Messier, Yzerman, Francis, Trottier, etc. I don't have Jagr ranked ahead of all those guys just because of his hardware. As great as Jagr has been for his generation, Lidstrom's all-time ranking should be higher, because 5 Norris trophies is impressive for any generation. I'd take Lidstrom's consistency and durability over any other player in league history.

I would totally disagree that Jagr has been more consistent. Fedorov has consistently posted numbers between .75 and 1 PPG almost every season for the past decade. Before that his numbers were higher, but part of that was the fact that scoring was up about 40% around the league as compared to the 90s. And when Fedorov's numbers were higher is actually when Jagr's numbers were lower...proving that Fedorov has had more of a consistent offensive output level. Jagr had a very high peak in the late 90s, but for the first part of this decade was considered washed up as his point totals were drastically down from what he was putting up.

I don't see how you can say Feds is more consistent than Jagr. Yes, he's 3 years older than Jagr, but 3 years ago Feds wasn't putting up the numbers that Jagr is tallying today. He'll easily finish top 10 in all-time scoring, which is a lot more than you can say for Sergei.

[Opie 308]

Let it be known I am not a fan of either of these players. They embody to me what is wrong with sports, athletes that think they can play on talent alone or think that they do not have to play D (Jagr) or that they can show up when they feel like it.

That is why I like guys Yzerman, Lids, Sakic, etc..

Feds since 1996-1997 has broken the 70 point plateau once, 02-03 his last year with the wings. (97-98 doesn't count against him he only played 21 games)

Jagr has not dipped below the 70 point mark since 1992 with a 69. The only reason Jagr stats look more inconsistent is because every once in a while the guy throws a 100+ pt season at you.

Even when Jagr was in Washington, the team did next to nothing, he still was able to put up atleast 77 points in 75 games.

Jagr averages well over a point per game, so your argument (not yelling argue, argument as in a statement) about point per game is confusing to me.

They both joined the league in 90-91 and Feds was definitely the hotter starter. But other than that Jagr has consistently put up better numbers than feds.

The argument of having Lemiuex with him is also a horrible excuse, granted having great players next to you is a help, but he has to be able to make a pass and put the puck in the back of the net. If he had hands of stone he wouldn't have been good enough to be on Lemiuex's line. I guess if the guy only had goals to his resume you could credit Mario, however Jagr also had 907 assists.

Career Numbers just points and games played in only 63 more games Jagr scored 423 more pts.

Jagr 1191 GP 1528 pts

Feds 1128 GP 1105 pts

Jagr is, was, and will go down as a better, more consistent offensive player than Feds. More all around, well that goes to Feds, because when he wants to he can play some mean D!

Has Jagr ever been on any "bad" teams?

Okay - those Caps teams were nothing to write home about, but in comparison I feel Feds has been on some pretty sorry teams these last 3 years...IMHO if ya don't have a decent supporting cast it'll be challenging to put up the big #'s; and Jagr these past few years has been pretty healthy while the same cannot be said for Sergei.

Even Jagr on the caps put up better numbers than Feds on the wings in the same years, so are you telling me that the 01-02 wings were worse than the 01-02 caps.

Besides to say that Feds has no supporting cast is a little bit of a stretch, I would argue that Columbus teams he has been on are on par with the Was teams Jagr was a part of.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Besides to say that Feds has no supporting cast is a little bit of a stretch, I would argue that Columbus teams he has been on are on par with the Was teams Jagr was a part of.

Based on what? The Capitals teams Jagr played on had some great players on them (Bondra, Nylander, Gonchar, Johansson, Oates, Halpern, Cote, Berezin, Zubrus) but they for some reason couldn't make the playoffs. There was no shortage of talent on that team. Jagr had a pretty good supporting cast.

Columbus has a bunch of washed up has-beens (Foote, Berard) and a bunch of major underachievers (Nash, Zherdev, Brule, Leclaire). It's like night and day between the two as far as talent comparison.

As much as I don't care to support Fedorov, he has no supporting cast with him on Columbus. Jagr, when in Washington, did have a supporting cast, and a pretty damn good one too. He has no excuse for the underachievement he gave there.

All in all, those Capitals teams that Jagr played on had talent. The Columbus teams that Fedorov plays on right now don't.

Edited August 13, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[eva unit zero 271]

Feds since 1996-1997 has broken the 70 point plateau once, 02-03 his last year with the wings. (97-98 doesn't count against him he only played 21 games)

Jagr has not dipped below the 70 point mark since 1992 with a 69. The only reason Jagr stats look more inconsistent is because every once in a while the guy throws a 100+ pt season at you.

Even when Jagr was in Washington, the team did next to nothing, he still was able to put up atleast 77 points in 75 games.

Jagr averages well over a point per game, so your argument (not yelling argue, argument as in a statement) about point per game is confusing to me.

They both joined the league in 90-91 and Feds was definitely the hotter starter. But other than that Jagr has consistently put up better numbers than feds.

Do you understand what the word 'consistent' means?

What it does NOT mean: Better, higher point totals.

What it DOES mean: Similar quality over a period of time.

Fedorov's offensive output did not go as high as Jagr's in the late 90s. But Fedorov was CONSISTENTLY in the 65-75 point range. If you take his points per game rate from the 96-97 season through the 06-07 season, Fedorov is extremely close to that for almost every individual season during that period. The exceptions being the 02-03 season, when he was noticeably above, and the past two seasons, when Fedorov has, for the first time in his career, been battling injuries, and has also played significant minutes on the blueline.

[FinRedWing 172]

How about Borje Salming in the top 5?

And I can't believe people are seriously saying that Forsberg should be higher than Kurri in the all time-list.

[eva unit zero 271]

How about Borje Salming in the top 5?

And I can't believe people are seriously saying that Forsberg should be higher than Kurri in the all time-list.

The thing about Forsberg is that he's a great player who's had a couple of great seasons, but due to injury issues could never stay healthyy. This thread is more about who was the best player rather than who had the best career, making health far less of an issue because it's about how well you performed in the time you were on the ice, so Forsberg is a valid pick.

[Opie 308]

Do you understand what the word 'consistent' means?

What it does NOT mean: Better, higher point totals.

What it DOES mean: Similar quality over a period of time.

Fedorov's offensive output did not go as high as Jagr's in the late 90s. But Fedorov was CONSISTENTLY in the 65-75 point range. If you take his points per game rate from the 96-97 season through the 06-07 season, Fedorov is extremely close to that for almost every individual season during that period. The exceptions being the 02-03 season, when he was noticeably above, and the past two seasons, when Fedorov has, for the first time in his career, been battling injuries, and has also played significant minutes on the blueline.

My point in bringing up consistency and the point per game thing is not that I do not know the meaning of the word rather I misunderstand your use of it.

Jagr has consistently put up more points than Fedorov and had more points per game than feds, yet some how Jagr is the more inconsistent player.

Like I said before to me these two are the same player, with feds just being more willing/better at defense.

I think Forsberg is better than both, Hasek is #2 and Lids without a doubt would be my #1 pick.

You have to wonder if the guys from the Dominant Russian world teams would have been able to play in the NHL how this list would have changed.

[eva unit zero 271]

My point in bringing up consistency and the point per game thing is not that I do not know the meaning of the word rather I misunderstand your use of it.

Jagr has consistently put up more points than Fedorov and had more points per game than feds, yet some how Jagr is the more inconsistent player.

Like I said before to me these two are the same player, with feds just being more willing/better at defense.

I think Forsberg is better than both, Hasek is #2 and Lids without a doubt would be my #1 pick.

You have to wonder if the guys from the Dominant Russian world teams would have been able to play in the NHL how this list would have changed.

Jagr's points per game pace fluctuated widly from season to season. Yes, Jagr consistently put up more points than Fedorov. No, Jagr was not a more consistent player. The two things are not the same, that's what you failed to grasp with your initial statement of 'Jagr is more consistent than Fedorov.'

As far as the Russians, my all-time best hockey players list usually includes Tretiak and Fetisov near the top, so I have to assume they would be in there. Lidstrom would probably at least be in the discussion, Larionov, Makarov, Kharlamov would all be involved as well.

[Opie 308]

I see your point I guess were I lost myself was thinking he has been consistently better, poor wording on my part.

[winggnutt 0]

Lids still has 5 years or more left and will likely elevate to top ten all time status, especially if the Wings take a cup with him as captain!