Babcock talks training camp

[Kp-Wings 3]

Cleary is better defensively. Thus he's a checking line player on the checking line with Draper and Filppula.

What's so hard to comprehend here? Teams have roles that need filled and players fill them. Sammy does his thing on the 2nd line and 2nd PP unit and Cleary does his thing on the 3rd line and 2nd PK unit. If either player were better they would be higher up on the depth chart. That is provided they didn't price themselves off the team.

I just don't understand how being a 20 goal scorer once in their respective career makes someone a top line player. I mean, Jason Williams was a 20 goal scorer, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would want him back on the 2nd line.

I hate Samulesson. He takes useless shots from nowhere, he is pathetic on the point on the PP, and for being 6'2 he is not physical at all.

I know Samulesson is there, but I'd rather someone else be on the 2nd line. Preferably Filppula, or even Hudler. Hudler especially is not a checking line forward at all, so we might as well play him on the 2nd line if anything.

(and yes, I am aware of the fact that the 2 names I mentioned are unproven, but I still like their chances at being better players over Samulesson).

Edited August 21, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Heaton 1]

I hate Samulesson. He takes useless shots from nowhere, he is pathetic on the point on the PP, and for being 6'2 he is not physical at all.

Do you really think that if you're a certain height you should be expected to be a physical player? I'm not exactly sure what his height has to do with anything.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Do you really think that if you're a certain height you should be expected to be a physical player? I'm not exactly sure what his height has to do with anything.

Actually, yes I do. So what?

There are obvious exceptions, like Eric Daze (6'6 and was never a physical player), but Samulesson has yet to ever be the goal scorer Daze was before his serious injuries. If Samulesson becomes a 38 goal-scoer and is also the MVP of an All-Star Game, then I can make exception for his lack of physical play because then he would be a true goal-scorer. But until then, no.

I find it funny that people are all coming out to defend Samulesson now, when before he was the biggest whipping boy on the Wings next to Lang. My oh my how things change.

[Heaton 1]

I find it funny that people are all coming out to defend Samulesson now, when before he was the biggest whipping boy on the Wings next to Lang. My oh my how things change.

Not really defending him as much as it is trying to explain to you what exactly Samuelsson is but you and others seem to not want to accept it.

Samuelsson makes 1.2m/yr, take a look at the other players who make that much and then tell me what people should expect from him. You're just expecting too much, it's like expecting a gourmet dinner by going through a drive through. Samuelsson is expendable as soon as someone does his job better than he does, albeit through trade or Grigorenko, Hudler or Filppula outplaying him, it'll happen eventually but until then Samuelsson is exactly what he is. When healthy he's a 20 goal 40 point getter who doesn't make too many defensive mistakes and can be servicable on almost any line. Samuelsson isn't Jason Williams, he isn't soft on the puck like Willy, he didn't turn the puck over when playing the point constantly like Willy and he doesn't take as many stupid mistakes as Willy. Yes they both scored 20 goals and played the point but the similarities stop there.

I wanted Samuelsson benched before the playoffs last year in favor of Hudler, but that was when we had Lang, Bertuzzi and Calder who filled those slots, now if we want to get a 40pt physical player who isn't particularly old we'd have to shell out over 4m a year. Samuelsson is exactly the type of players you need in this day and age, cheap pluggers who fill in until your young guys prove they can take the reigns and do it better.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Not really defending him as much as it is trying to explain to you what exactly Samuelsson is but you and others seem to not want to accept it.

Samuelsson makes 1.2m/yr, take a look at the other players who make that much and then tell me what people should expect from him. You're just expecting too much, it's like expecting a gourmet dinner by going through a drive through. Samuelsson is expendable as soon as someone does his job better than he does, albeit through trade or Grigorenko, Hudler or Filppula outplaying him, it'll happen eventually but until then Samuelsson is exactly what he is. When healthy he's a 20 goal 40 point getter who doesn't make too many defensive mistakes and can be servicable on almost any line. Samuelsson isn't Jason Williams, he isn't soft on the puck like Willy, he didn't turn the puck over when playing the point constantly like Willy and he doesn't take as many stupid mistakes as Willy. Yes they both scored 20 goals and played the point but the similarities stop there.

I wanted Samuelsson benched before the playoffs last year in favor of Hudler, but that was when we had Lang, Bertuzzi and Calder who filled those slots, now if we want to get a 40pt physical player who isn't particularly old we'd have to shell out over 4m a year. Samuelsson is exactly the type of players you need in this day and age, cheap pluggers who fill in until your young guys prove they can take the reigns and do it better.

Yeah, you're right.

Still though: the way he plays is enough for me to not like him. On a personal standpoint, I like Filppula and Hudler for that 2nd line spot over Samulesson.

Why? Because even though they haven't scored as many points as Samulesson has, they both played a lot better hockey then he did last season. You said it yourself: you wanted Samulesson benched for Hudler. Well, I see no problem giving that 2nd line spot to Hudler now over Samulesson.

I'm not the biggest Hudler fan, but he did score 15 goals last year out of nothing. That's pretty close to Samulesson's 20, and is overall a better player then Samulesson.

I just think one of the rookies would be better suited to that role. They may still be rookies, but they both played better then Samulesson last season. I think that means something.

[Heaton 1]

Yeah, you're right.

Still though: the way he plays is enough for me to not like him. On a personal standpoint, I like Filppula and Hudler for that 2nd line spot over Samulesson.

Why? Because even though they haven't scored as many points as Samulesson has, they both played a lot better hockey then he did last season. You said it yourself: you wanted Samulesson benched for Hudler. Well, I see no problem giving that 2nd line spot to Hudler now over Samulesson.

I'm not the biggest Hudler fan, but he did score 15 goals last year out of nothing. That's pretty close to Samulesson's 20, and is overall a better player then Samulesson.

I just think one of the rookies would be better suited to that role. They may still be rookies, but they both played better then Samulesson last season. I think that means something.

Hudler is there even with Samuelsson in the top 6, the guy who will be trying to take his spot is Grigorenko and I'd guess he'd have it before too soon. Filppula will get his mintues, just not in a top 6 offensive role. I'd guess he'll get 14-16 minutes a night on the defensive side.

[norrisnick 1]

Yeah, you're right.

Still though: the way he plays is enough for me to not like him. On a personal standpoint, I like Filppula and Hudler for that 2nd line spot over Samulesson.

Why? Because even though they haven't scored as many points as Samulesson has, they both played a lot better hockey then he did last season. You said it yourself: you wanted Samulesson benched for Hudler. Well, I see no problem giving that 2nd line spot to Hudler now over Samulesson.

I'm not the biggest Hudler fan, but he did score 15 goals last year out of nothing. That's pretty close to Samulesson's 20, and is overall a better player then Samulesson.

I just think one of the rookies would be better suited to that role. They may still be rookies, but they both played better then Samulesson last season. I think that means something.

Hudler will be on the 2nd (or 1st) line as well. Have you looked at our roster lately? Babcock outlined our top 6ers as Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Hudler, and Franzen (Grigorenko being the wildcard). We don't have elite scorers falling out of our asses anymore. No one does, or if they do, they have no defense or goaltending to speak of. The Wings are being built from the blueline out.

And Filppula's advanced defensive abilities is going to see him play more of a two-way role until he gets the confidence to hone his offense. Not to mention that guys that can score in a checking role are just as valuable, if not morseo, than 2nd liners that can only score. That's what made our Grindline so deadly come playoff time (and their icetime reflected that, during the '02 Cup run they were our 2nd line).

[Drake_Marcus 890]

I don't know who he plans to play with Datsyuk and Holmstrom. Other then Zetterberg, we don't have anybody capable of playing the top line.

...and before I get to listen to it, guys like Hudler and Samulesson are not top line playes, no matter what anyone says. Especially Samulesson. 20 goals doesn't make somebody that. Ask Jason Williams.

This is why signing a top 6 forward would have prevented this. Since everyone is so hellbent on breaking Datsyuk and Zetterberg up (I have no idea why either, since they were both just plain awful at the start of last season when they weren't playing together) at least have someone in there who can play that role.

At this point, Jeff O'Neill or Peter Forsberg are the only guys who will fit that bill, neither of which will be coming here anytime soon. Guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

Sidenote: I think it's so stupid that people want Zetterberg and Datsyuk broken up mainly because Zetterberg is a natural center. That is the lamest reason ever. Those two form arguably the best line in the league, and everybody wants to break it up? Why?

We have centers coming out of our asses on this team. There is no reason why Filppula or even Hudler can't be the 2nd line center.

[eva unit zero 271]

I just don't understand how being a 20 goal scorer once in their respective career makes someone a top line player. I mean, Jason Williams was a 20 goal scorer, and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would want him back on the 2nd line.

For your reference, 90th (first line) and 180th place (second line) among forwards on each of the following, dividing off the first and second line level guys inthose categories.

Goals: 22 (90th), 14 (180th)

Assists: 32 (90th), 19 (180th)

Points: 55 (90th), 34 (180th)

Even though Samuelsson only played 53 games, he still tied or cleared all of the second column. Over 82 games, he would fall just shy of the first column in all three categories. That means that offensively, Sammy is a solid second liner. Defensively, he's not a liability. The 2006-07 Wings had ten guys (if you include Calder) who qualified as a top-six forward based on at least one of those categories, a list that does not include Bertuzzi or Filppula. Seven guys, including Calder, were top-six offensive forwards in all three categories.

[bringback91 2]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say hockey.

Sure your right. Although I do understand this coming from someone with a great dis-like for Datsyuk, who also thinks Hudler is just as good as Datsyuk. At least that's the arguement you've made a couple of times. Anyway while a matter of opinion, many would beg to differ just how MUCH better Z is than Datsyuk. I beleive they both seem to be equally great players with differing strong points in game, but neither one really out shines the other by any margin. I know alot don't like to use stats, and there not everything for sure, but that playoff stats have been all Datsyuks been judged by since he's been on the Wings, so here's a glimpse since Z's been in the leauge.

Dats: Regular season

GP:293 G:97 A:196 PTS:293 +/-:80 GWG: 14

Playoffs:

GP:39 G:8 A:17 PTS:25 +/-:EVEN GWG:2

Z Regular season:

GP:280 G:109 A:131 PTS:240 +/-:76 GWG:25

Playoffs:

GP:40 G:15 A:10 PTS:25 +/-:-3 GWG:1

I mean, I understand the golden boy thing that some have with Z, I really do, but how much better some seem to think he is than Datsyuk is just plain silly. They've both had there share of underskilled linemates, as well as had each other to work with. Both have played in all situations, and both have played extended periods of time on wing, away from there natural position. The stats would beg to differ that z is so much better. Datsyuk is obviously no sloutch on D, lead the leauge in take aways. The leadership I love how fans seem to gauge it. Like really, how do you know how Z leads the team? They both seem to lead by example and thats the best way. Eh, I guess we'll just have to wait til the end of both careers just to see how "MUCH BETTER" Z really is.

[eva unit zero 271]

Sure your right. Although I do understand this coming from someone with a great dis-like for Datsyuk, who also thinks Hudler is just as good as Datsyuk. At least that's the arguement you've made a couple of times. Anyway while a matter of opinion, many would beg to differ just how MUCH better Z is than Datsyuk. I beleive they both seem to be equally great players with differing strong points in game, but neither one really out shines the other by any margin. I know alot don't like to use stats, and there not everything for sure, but that playoff stats have been all Datsyuks been judged by since he's been on the Wings, so here's a glimpse since Z's been in the leauge.

Dats: Regular season

GP:293 G:97 A:196 PTS:293 +/-:80 GWG: 14

Playoffs:

GP:39 G:8 A:17 PTS:25 +/-:EVEN GWG:2

Z Regular season:

GP:280 G:109 A:131 PTS:240 +/-:76 GWG:25

Playoffs:

GP:40 G:15 A:10 PTS:25 +/-:-3 GWG:1

I mean, I understand the golden boy thing that some have with Z, I really do, but how much better some seem to think he is than Datsyuk is just plain silly. They've both had there share of underskilled linemates, as well as had each other to work with. Both have played in all situations, and both have played extended periods of time on wing, away from there natural position. The stats would beg to differ that z is so much better. Datsyuk is obviously no sloutch on D, lead the leauge in take aways. The leadership I love how fans seem to gauge it. Like really, how do you know how Z leads the team? They both seem to lead by example and thats the best way. Eh, I guess we'll just have to wait til the end of both careers just to see how "MUCH BETTER" Z really is.

Dats has also played one more season. Other than the fact your stats for Dats are just plain incorrect, they are also misleading. Why don't we look at correct totals, as well as comparing each player's first four seasons?

Regular season

Dats (total): 363 GP, 108-220-328, +84

Dats (first four): 284 GP, 81-160-241, +48

Z: 280 GP, 109-131-240, +76

[/font]

Playoffs

Dats (total): 60 GP, 11-20-31, +1

Dats (first four): 42 GP, 3-12-15, -1

Z: 40 GP, 15-10-25, -5

As you can see, Hank was slightly better than Dats offensively through four seasons. Dats is only now becoming a defensively capable player, while Zetterberg has been excellent defensively his whole career. That is why Z is 'so much better' than Dats.

[bringback91 2]

Dats has also played one more season. Other than the fact your stats for Dats are just plain incorrect, they are also misleading. Why don't we look at correct totals, as well as comparing each player's first four seasons?

Regular season

Dats (total): 363 GP, 108-220-328, +84

Dats (first four): 284 GP, 81-160-241, +48

Z: 280 GP, 109-131-240, +76

[/font]

Playoffs

Dats (total): 60 GP, 11-20-31, +1

Dats (first four): 42 GP, 3-12-15, -1

Z: 40 GP, 15-10-25, -5

As you can see, Hank was slightly better than Dats offensively through four seasons. Dats is only now becoming a defensively capable player, while Zetterberg has been excellent defensively his whole career. That is why Z is 'so much better' than Dats.

Well no, there not incorrect or misleading. Yeah Datsyuk played one more year, I said "but that playoff stats have been all Datsyuks been judged by since he's been on the Wings, so here's a glimpse since Z's been in the leauge." Since Z's been in the leauge, miss that part? I also added regular season stats as well. However you want to slice up the numbers I guess, but how about we just do the last two seasons when they've been the two go to guys.

Datsyuk regular season:

154gp. 55g. 119a. 174pts. +62 9gwg

playoff

23gp 8g. 11a. 19pts. +2 2gwg.

Z regular season:

140gp. 72g. 81a. 153pts. +55 19gwg.

playoff

24gp. 12g. 8a. 20pts. -1 1gwg.

So if anyone's being misleading it must be you. As you can see from the past two years alone, Dats has been slightly better offensively, and damn near exactly the same in the playoffs. Calling him "defensively capable" is really undercutting the guys defensive game. Maybe you like and prefer Z's STYLE of defense and all around play, but it's not mind blowingly more effective. Sure Z's got a better knack of scoring goals, Dats is better at setting guys up, different styles to be sure, but I just don't see this giant gap in playing ablitiy. Oh well, to each his own I suppose.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I think people are completely lost on Sammy and forgot how little he played. He missed 29 games, and he had so many injuries that you have to tack on at least another 5 for the first games back after serious injury where players are still getting their timing back not to mention the lack of confidence associated with regrouping your game after injury.

Sammy WAS on pace for 22 goals and 54 points. Whats so bad about that? If you want to rag on Sammy for taking bad shots or being a pretty all-around boring player, then do that. But you cant say that, on a team whos only glaring need are players who are just going to put up points, that Sammy is bad for the Wings. If he were softer than butter, defensively irresponsible, and a completely lethargic skater getting paid over 3M, then hed be worthy of the Lang-like criticism he recieves, but if/when he scores 20/20, people need to realize that hes a bargain for that production and the fact that he doesnt detract from other players' games..

Im not a fan of Sammy, and I dont think hes a complete, exciting, stud player. But he is decent and at his pace over the past 2 years, a bang for the buck.

[Viperar 16]

In this day and age, Samuelsson is a top line player. You want to have guys who are cheap that can fill out the top 6 who can play in all offensive situations. Samuelsson has been a 20 goal scorer since he got here, had he not gotten injured last year he would've scored 20 goals again, that's about what you should expect from the guy.

There's nothing wrong with Samuelsson on the 2nd line.

damn...welll said heaton...applause all around for this post

[Hank 0]

Dats and Hank will be back together no matter what he says. With Homer they were THE BEST LINE IN THE NHL!!! Why why why break it up? To spread around LESS scoring? The simple fact is this, nobody else can handle Dats and Hanks play making like Dats and Hank and Homer!

Okay, if he does split them then Flip or Franzen have to play with Dats too.

Nobody can handle them eh? I seem to recall Babcock having to seperate them because the Ducks shut them down completely. And it wasn't until Babs seperated them that the Wings showed any offensive life.

I'd much rather have 2 decent scoring lines than one dynamic one. It's way too easy to shut down one line than two.

Besides, Zetts is a natural centre and he's better there. This is a perfect time for one of the young guys to show that they can play and produce on a top line - Hudler Grigs and even Filpulla, I'm looking at you!

[Opie 308]

Nobody can handle them eh? I seem to recall Babcock having to seperate them because the Ducks shut them down completely. And it wasn't until Babs seperated them that the Wings showed any offensive life.

I'd much rather have 2 decent scoring lines than one dynamic one. It's way too easy to shut down one line than two.

Besides, Zetts is a natural centre and he's better there. This is a perfect time for one of the young guys to show that they can play and produce on a top line - Hudler Grigs and even Filpulla, I'm looking at you!

I agree 100% with you hank, plus if the wings are struggling, Babcock has shown he has no issues juggling the lines and putting the people he thinks will get the job done, where they need to be. Unless that players name starts with H and ends in UDLER!!!!

LOL

[Hank 0]

I agree 100% with you hank, plus if the wings are struggling, Babcock has shown he has no issues juggling the lines and putting the people he thinks will get the job done, where they need to be. Unless that players name starts with H and ends in UDLER!!!!

LOL

Exactly! It's not like Bab's is saying 'Zetts and Dats will never play together again'. If the team struggles, he'll use them on one line to get some goals. I'm sure that will happen a lot in 3rd periods where we're down a goal or two.

But it makes no sense to keep them together so we can build 3 AHL lines. That's a bit harsh perhaps, but with Z and D on one line, essentially you have three 3rd lines trying to score goals. That's not going to help when you need offensive depth in the playoffs to be successful.

I really do believe that this is the year that players like Hudler and Grigorenko show what they can do. I wouldn't be shocked in the least if either of them posted 20 goal seasons. Heck, even Franzen might be able to pop in 18 on the top 2 lines. It's all about depth. And with Z and D together we're as shallow as Paris Hilton.

[norrisnick 1]

Nobody can handle them eh? I seem to recall Babcock having to seperate them because the Ducks shut them down completely. And it wasn't until Babs seperated them that the Wings showed any offensive life.

I'd much rather have 2 decent scoring lines than one dynamic one. It's way too easy to shut down one line than two.

Besides, Zetts is a natural centre and he's better there. This is a perfect time for one of the young guys to show that they can play and produce on a top line - Hudler Grigs and even Filpulla, I'm looking at you!

Those two put up points in the first three games of the series. Nothing in games 4 and 5. Then when reunited late in game 6, they combined for 3 goals in the 3rd. That series was merely an exercise in wasted opportunities, but it wasn't a case of being shut down or dominated. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The Ducks should feel very lucky they advanced.

[Hank 0]

Those two put up points in the first three games of the series. Nothing in games 4 and 5. Then when reunited late in game 6, they combined for 3 goals in the 3rd. That series was merely an exercise in wasted opportunities, but it wasn't a case of being shut down or dominated. Not by any stretch of the imagination. The Ducks should feel very lucky they advanced.

No, I agree that they didn't get dominated. But Babcock seperated them for a reason. While they did get points in some games, there were too many times where you didn't even notice them. And the 3 goals they generated in game 6 were all on the PP I believe. At even strength the Phalsson line was very effective in shutting them down. Especially when the Ducks had the last change at home.

If the Wings had a 2nd line anchored by a 65 point centre and a 25-30 goal winger I'd have no issues with Z and D being on the same line all year. But we don't. With those guys at the top, we'd have Filpulla centering Hudler and Sammy. That gives me nightmares. Filpulla is going to be a very good hockey player but he's not there yet. He's best left on the 3rd line while getting some PP time and a few shifts on the wing with either Zetterberg or Datsyuk.

EDIT: I might be wrong on this, but I've noticed that when Zetterberg plays centre he seems to play with a bit more edge and urgency. He also is unbelievable at carrying the puck through centre ice. It just seems to me that he's more 'in the game' at centre and generates more offense when playing as a pivot. Again, I might be off on that basis, but I thought that was the case when he lined up at centre during the season and playoffs.

Edited August 21, 2007 by Hank

[motorcitykid 42]

He ******* blows compared to Cleary, who is not in the top six as of this news.

That's my problem.

Sammy is a junk player who has been enhanced by the play of Z and Dats. Period.

Not many will defend him or try to justify the notion he's a Top 6 player. Just because he has somehow fooled Babs into giving him such ice time, doesn't change anything.

But i'm sure he thanks God every day for his good fortune in Detroit though.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

And Cleary wasn't enhanced by Lang? That line went hot November through December (Dan had 27 points in those 27 games), but don't forget that Cleary was ice cold apart from that (13 points in the other 44 games he played). I remember Z giftwrapped Dan's 20th goal on an empty netter because Z knew he had 19 and felt 20 was a nice milestone to hit. That was Feb 2nd. Cleary finished the season with 20 goals...

You can't exactly say that many NHL wingers aren't dependent, on some level, on the play of their centres or at least of the opposite wingman. From Feb 2nd on Cleary had an ice-cold centre and opposite winger.

Your argument works both ways.

[Opie 308]

Cleary never flourished with top 6 minutes anywhere else. In fact he didn't flourish with any team on any line until he showed up in the D.

Sammy on the other hand put up respectable numbers. I am not saying he is the top forward on the team but of the players that are on this roster currently he fills the need and has done it before.

Not every player on this team is going to be a 40 goal scorer. That just won't happen.

GONE ARE THE DAYS OF THE 02 WINGS-LIKE ROSTERS!!!!!!!!

And even that team had Boyd the void, Dandy, and a Holmstrom that at the time was not as good as he is now.

So maybe just maybe having a guy that scores 20 goals on the wing of a 40-50 goal scorer or a guy that has 60 assists may help him out, but it takes a good player to score 20 goals, think if that were Boyd on D's wing or Z's what a commotion these boards would be in.

[Earthhuman 8]

Question: Worst [checker] you [ever] gone on? Badest [checker] direct you [ever] divided out?/Broder Hanson

Lidstrom: Hm, difficult question. I have had some [real] [hits] through the years. The worst each perhaps when Dallas Drake, as then played in Phoenix, took me in [end boards] in a game. I saw him to come in the last second, but had somewhere to take the road or to protect myself. That hurt. But I have surely dished some times also, a guy that is called Todd Krygier, and as played in NHL on 90's, is in the habit of reminding me about that I got in a good [hit] on him on open ice when he played in Washington.

I want to see this hit! Does anyone have it?

[norrisnick 1]

No, I agree that they didn't get dominated. But Babcock seperated them for a reason. While they did get points in some games, there were too many times where you didn't even notice them. And the 3 goals they generated in game 6 were all on the PP I believe. At even strength the Phalsson line was very effective in shutting them down. Especially when the Ducks had the last change at home.

If the Wings had a 2nd line anchored by a 65 point centre and a 25-30 goal winger I'd have no issues with Z and D being on the same line all year. But we don't. With those guys at the top, we'd have Filpulla centering Hudler and Sammy. That gives me nightmares. Filpulla is going to be a very good hockey player but he's not there yet. He's best left on the 3rd line while getting some PP time and a few shifts on the wing with either Zetterberg or Datsyuk.

EDIT: I might be wrong on this, but I've noticed that when Zetterberg plays centre he seems to play with a bit more edge and urgency. He also is unbelievable at carrying the puck through centre ice. It just seems to me that he's more 'in the game' at centre and generates more offense when playing as a pivot. Again, I might be off on that basis, but I thought that was the case when he lined up at centre during the season and playoffs.

I fully expect them to be split up and fully support the notion.

And yes, Z is far more effective as a center. When that line went nuts from late December until Z got hurt it was Pavel on the wing and Z in the middle.

You can't exactly say that many NHL wingers aren't dependent, on some level, on the play of their centres or at least of the opposite wingman. From Feb 2nd on Cleary had an ice-cold centre and opposite winger.

Your argument works both ways.

My argument? I was merely pointing out that YOUR argument works both ways. IE if Sammy was leeching off of Z, what was Cleary doing with Lang?

[eva unit zero 271]

You can't exactly say that many NHL wingers aren't dependent, on some level, on the play of their centres or at least of the opposite wingman. From Feb 2nd on Cleary had an ice-cold centre and opposite winger.

Your argument works both ways.

The thing is, Cleary's hot streak was a result of Lang's hot streak. I know Cleary is a much more popular player on this board than Lang, but for anyone to argue that Lang was the reason Cleary didn't score more goals is ludicrous, given that Lang's hot streak is the reason Cleary scored more than ten.