man do i miss stuff like this,....

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

In my opinion, they ARE synonymous. When somebody asks you who the toughest team in the league is...you immediately think fighting dont you? Back in school days, when somebody talked about the toughest kid in the class...we're they talking about who could take the most beatings? Hell no, you're talking who could kick everyone's ass. The terms fighting and toughness have always been linked with me, and I assume many others. Unfortunately what gets confusing is people who use the word "toughness" when "grit" would probably be the more appropriate word for what theyre trying to say.

I'll go one step further than that. What always gets me is the whole "team toughness" crap. Does anyone actually know what that means? Does it mean standing around and not doing anything when one of your own gets blindsided by a cheap shot? I want to see a big GOON on this team who will kick ass when someone messes with our players, and I don't care if he can skate or score, because that isn't an enforcer's job.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

I'll go one step further than that. What always gets me is the whole "team toughness" crap. Does anyone actually know what that means? Does it mean standing around and not doing anything when one of your own gets blindsided by a cheap shot? I want to see a big GOON on this team who will kick ass when someone messes with our players, and I don't care if he can skate or score, because that isn't an enforcer's job.

Right you are. Team TOUGHNESS has everything to do with fighting, so im not sure why some wouldnt consider these terms directly linked. Team toughness describes a team that may not have a big gun scrapper, but has multiple guys willing to drop the gloves to defend their teammates. I hate when people talk about team toughness and throw names like Franzen out there.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Right you are. Team TOUGHNESS has everything to do with fighting, so im not sure why some wouldnt consider these terms directly linked. Team toughness describes a team that may not have a big gun scrapper, but has multiple guys willing to drop the gloves to defend their teammates. I hate when people talk about team toughness and throw names like Franzen out there.

QFT

This team may have mild levels of gritty players (if you all want to consider that) like Drake or what not, but in no way does this team have team toughness. Not at all.

Example: Ryan Johnson (St. Louis) runs over Hasek flat to the ground, and not a single guy goes over and defends him. Team toughness is when someone, even if not a fighters, goes over and drops the gloves and defends their teammates. Not wait around like dogs and let the refs make a call.

Another example: Ville Nieminen (St. Louis) runs over Lebda with an extremely obvious cheapshot. Who defends him? Nobody. I give credit to Chelios for trying to do something, but it's pretty pathetic when the rest of the team is so weak that a 45 year-old has to go over and straighten things out. And even then Chelios didn't actually fight. Not that I really want him to be the one to do that, but somebody else should have.

Example #3: Raffi Torres (Edmonton) comes barreling into Williams like Fred Flintstone running to start his car. Does anyone come to the aid of Williams at all? No. Not a single person did anything. They all stood around and waited.

I could go on all day about the millions of examples of how the Wings do not have team toughness. Team toughness is when you go out and defend your teammates if an injustice is taken upon them. Not sit on their hands and wait for Colin Campbell to hand out a meek 1-game suspension.

The Wings may have some (by some I mean few) gritty players, but they don't have team toughness by any stretch of the imagination.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

QFT

This team may have mild levels of gritty players (if you all want to consider that) like Drake or what not, but in no way does this team have team toughness. Not at all.

Example: Ryan Johnson (St. Louis) runs over Hasek flat to the ground, and not a single guy goes over and defends him. Team toughness is when someone, even if not a fighters, goes over and drops the gloves and defends their teammates. Not wait around like dogs and let the refs make a call.

Another example: Ville Nieminen (St. Louis) runs over Lebda with an extremely obvious cheapshot. Who defends him? Nobody. I give credit to Chelios for trying to do something, but it's pretty pathetic when the rest of the team is so weak that a 45 year-old has to go over and straighten things out. And even then Chelios didn't actually fight. Not that I really want him to be the one to do that, but somebody else should have.

Example #3: Raffi Torres (Edmonton) comes barreling into Williams like Fred Flintstone running to start his car. Does anyone come to the aid of Williams at all? No. Not a single person did anything. They all stood around and waited.

I could go on all day about the millions of examples of how the Wings do not have team toughness. Team toughness is when you go out and defend your teammates if an injustice is taken upon them. Not sit on their hands and wait for Colin Campbell to hand out a meek 1-game suspension.

The Wings may have some (by some I mean few) gritty players, but they don't have team toughness by any stretch of the imagination.

Interestingly enough, that same Ryan Johnson showed not too long after, how a team SHOULD react when he was put in the opposite situation. Johnson is a total non-fighter mind you, like many of the Wings, but what happens when Krys Barch (an actual fighter mind you) runs over his teammate? He drops the gloves and actually instigates with him. Seeing a guy like that react, while a bigger Wing like Franzen does nothing... is something i hate.

[gbdet 0]

QFT

This team may have mild levels of gritty players (if you all want to consider that) like Drake or what not, but in no way does this team have team toughness. Not at all.

Example: Ryan Johnson (St. Louis) runs over Hasek flat to the ground, and not a single guy goes over and defends him. Team toughness is when someone, even if not a fighters, goes over and drops the gloves and defends their teammates. Not wait around like dogs and let the refs make a call.

Another example: Ville Nieminen (St. Louis) runs over Lebda with an extremely obvious cheapshot. Who defends him? Nobody. I give credit to Chelios for trying to do something, but it's pretty pathetic when the rest of the team is so weak that a 45 year-old has to go over and straighten things out. And even then Chelios didn't actually fight. Not that I really want him to be the one to do that, but somebody else should have.

Example #3: Raffi Torres (Edmonton) comes barreling into Williams like Fred Flintstone running to start his car. Does anyone come to the aid of Williams at all? No. Not a single person did anything. They all stood around and waited.

I could go on all day about the millions of examples of how the Wings do not have team toughness. Team toughness is when you go out and defend your teammates if an injustice is taken upon them. Not sit on their hands and wait for Colin Campbell to hand out a meek 1-game suspension.

The Wings may have some (by some I mean few) gritty players, but they don't have team toughness by any stretch of the imagination.

Or when Franzen got a late hit from Willie Mitchell that knocked him out cold... Thats when the team toughness came out and they facewashed him... oh wait...lol

[norrisnick 1]

QFT

This team may have mild levels of gritty players (if you all want to consider that) like Drake or what not, but in no way does this team have team toughness. Not at all.

Example: Ryan Johnson (St. Louis) runs over Hasek flat to the ground, and not a single guy goes over and defends him. Team toughness is when someone, even if not a fighters, goes over and drops the gloves and defends their teammates. Not wait around like dogs and let the refs make a call.

Another example: Ville Nieminen (St. Louis) runs over Lebda with an extremely obvious cheapshot. Who defends him? Nobody. I give credit to Chelios for trying to do something, but it's pretty pathetic when the rest of the team is so weak that a 45 year-old has to go over and straighten things out. And even then Chelios didn't actually fight. Not that I really want him to be the one to do that, but somebody else should have.

Example #3: Raffi Torres (Edmonton) comes barreling into Williams like Fred Flintstone running to start his car. Does anyone come to the aid of Williams at all? No. Not a single person did anything. They all stood around and waited.

I could go on all day about the millions of examples of how the Wings do not have team toughness. Team toughness is when you go out and defend your teammates if an injustice is taken upon them. Not sit on their hands and wait for Colin Campbell to hand out a meek 1-game suspension.

The Wings may have some (by some I mean few) gritty players, but they don't have team toughness by any stretch of the imagination.

You keep saying defend when you should be saying avenge.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Example #3: Raffi Torres (Edmonton) comes barreling into Williams like Fred Flintstone running to start his car. Does anyone come to the aid of Williams at all? No. Not a single person did anything. They all stood around and waited.

I could go on all day about the millions of examples of how the Wings do not have team toughness. Team toughness is when you go out and defend your teammates if an injustice is taken upon them. Not sit on their hands and wait for Colin Campbell to hand out a meek 1-game suspension.

That hit on Williams was 100% clean and his own fault for havin his head down. Its part of the game. So explain to me how it is an injustice? You can't go after every player that lays out a big hit.

[eva unit zero 271]

Example #3: Raffi Torres (Edmonton) comes barreling into Williams like Fred Flintstone running to start his car. Does anyone come to the aid of Williams at all? No. Not a single person did anything. They all stood around and waited.

Did anyone on Edmonton lift a finger to 'defend' Jarrett Stoll after Markov leveled him at center ice? No. Not a single person did anything. They all stood around and waited.

[Opie 308]

Right you are eva, and I am assuming that the toughness related to fighting is related to what I said about standing up for each other. I never said they were tough I said they have each others back, that is all.

If you were not talking about that than ignore this post!!!

[norrisnick 1]

Did anyone on Edmonton lift a finger to 'defend' Jarrett Stoll after Markov leveled him at center ice? No. Not a single person did anything. They all stood around and waited.

Moreau did break himself and take himself out of pretty much the rest of the season by trying to fight Markov later in the game. Chalk up another bonus point for the pro-fighting brigade.

[sticknmove 0]

norris nick you have a funny, although warped perception of hockey.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

norris nick you have a funny, although warped perception of hockey.

Because he doesn't encourage fighting when it isn't necessary?

Or because he disagrees with you......

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Did anyone on Edmonton lift a finger to 'defend' Jarrett Stoll after Markov leveled him at center ice? No. Not a single person did anything. They all stood around and waited.

Like NN said , Moreau tried to do something about it and failed misarably at it. Sometimes it backfires , but i'll give him credit for trying.

Fighting , is not nessecary, but If you want to have a team with skilled euros on it , you better have some tough (gritty , guys who will drop the mits and defend there teammates) to protect them.

If we have a guy like Neil on our team , Stuart doesnt lay a hand on Zetterberg in that game versus calgary, he'd be too frigentened because hes a puss and can only pick on players smaller then him. If Z's healthy for the rest of the season , he gets 40 goals and 90 points easily. And hes healthy going into the playoffs , who knows what he couldve done 100% healthy.

Im all for having a fighter/enforcer/guy who can give you 15 solid minutes a night , over Kopecky or Samuleson. 10 times outta 10 , a guy like Neil , Asham , Clowe or Mayers gets picked over a Kopecky , Samuleson.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Did anyone on Edmonton lift a finger to 'defend' Jarrett Stoll after Markov leveled him at center ice? No. Not a single person did anything. They all stood around and waited.

Yeah, and Edmonton sucks. Your point?

You keep saying defend when you should be saying avenge.

You know what I mean.

Interestingly enough, that same Ryan Johnson showed not too long after, how a team SHOULD react when he was put in the opposite situation. Johnson is a total non-fighter mind you, like many of the Wings, but what happens when Krys Barch (an actual fighter mind you) runs over his teammate? He drops the gloves and actually instigates with him. Seeing a guy like that react, while a bigger Wing like Franzen does nothing... is something i hate.

Thank you. Finally, someone who understands the concept.

Franzen is a great example. He could easily have fought someone in those situations. I mean, considering his size, there is no exuse to why he doesn't fight.

It isn't goon hockey like some think of to actually stick up for your teammates. It's team toughness, which is something the Wings don't have, contrary to popular belief.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Fighting , is not nessecary, but If you want to have a team with skilled euros on it , you better have some tough (gritty , guys who will drop the mits and defend there teammates) to protect them.

If we have a guy like Neil on our team , Stuart doesnt lay a hand on Zetterberg in that game versus calgary, he'd be too frigentened because hes a puss and can only pick on players smaller then him. If Z's healthy for the rest of the season , he gets 40 goals and 90 points easily. And hes healthy going into the playoffs , who knows what he couldve done 100% healthy.

Im all for having a fighter/enforcer/guy who can give you 15 solid minutes a night , over Kopecky or Samuleson. 10 times outta 10 , a guy like Neil , Asham , Clowe or Mayers gets picked over a Kopecky , Samuleson.

Skilled Euros? Couldn't be more ignorant.

So no one has EVER layed a finger on Spezza, Alfie or other "skilled euros" on the Senators? Its clear you don't watch other teams.

Yeah more grinders just what the team needs!! You obviously dont understand the importance of cheap secondary scorers who are not liabilities.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Son of a Wing

[Kp-Wings 3]

Skilled Euros? Couldn't be more ignorant.

So no one has EVER layed a finger on Spezza, Alfie or other "skilled euros" on the Senators? Its clear you don't watch other teams.

Yeah more grinders just what the team needs!! You obviously dont understand the importance of cheap secondary scorers who are not liabilities.

The names he suggested aren't goons. Clowe scored 19 goals on the 4th line in San Jose last year. Neil scored 16 goals on the 4th line in Ottawa in 2005-2006.

I also fail to see how Kopecky qualifies as an inexpensive goal scorer. 1 goal in 26 games is sure gawdy numbers, isn't it?

...and just clarify Detroit #1 fans post, by skilled Euro's he means Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who don't have anybody on the team to protect them. Name one person who will protect these guys. I'm interested to hear what your answer is.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

The names he suggested aren't goons. Clowe scored 19 goals on the 4th line in San Jose last year. Neil scored 16 goals on the 4th line in Ottawa in 2005-2006.

I also fail to see how Kopecky qualifies as an inexpensive goal scorer. 1 goal in 26 games is sure gawdy numbers, isn't it?

...and just clarify Detroit #1 fans post, by skilled Euro's he means Datsyuk and Zetterberg, who don't have anybody on the team to protect them. Name one person who will protect these guys. I'm interested to hear what your answer is.

Where did I even mention the word goon???

Youre right about Kopecky though. He's a developing youngster who has shown decent promise through ONLY 27 games. You're ready to throw him to the wolves by the sound of it.

Are they really that helpless????

[eva unit zero 271]

Like NN said , Moreau tried to do something about it and failed misarably at it. Sometimes it backfires , but i'll give him credit for trying.

Fighting , is not nessecary, but If you want to have a team with skilled euros on it , you better have some tough (gritty , guys who will drop the mits and defend there teammates) to protect them.

If we have a guy like Neil on our team , Stuart doesnt lay a hand on Zetterberg in that game versus calgary, he'd be too frigentened because hes a puss and can only pick on players smaller then him.

I disagree. Having Neil would not have prevented Stuart from taking a run at Z. If a player is going to try and injure another player, he will do so enforcer or not. Claude Lemieux is an excellent example...he wrecked Draper's face with guys like McCarty, Kocur, Lapointe on the team. Lapointe was only about five feet away at the time. Why wasn't Lemieux deterred?

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

It all boils down to what your definition of toughness is.

Toughness=fighting, protecting teammates

Toughness=battling in the corners etc

Toughness(mental)=battling through adversity, injury.

I think they are all a vital element to any team and something you can never have enough of. I just don't see the logic in dedicating a roster spot to a guy whos only going to dress 10-15 games when it could be better served to a rookie. If we lacked depth and no one was ready to step in, than ok maybe to fill the roster but we've got guys knocking on the door.

By the way, I'd love to have a player like Neil but he's not just an enforcer he does everything. And theres no one like him available so why even mention him? Players like that arent just given away. You have to work with what you have and try to get the most out of those players.

I know you guys dont think we're tough enough because we don't have anybody known for fighting, but what practical solution do you offer up to fix that? Naming off unavailable players does not help your cause.

[sticknmove 0]

"Because he doesn't encourage fighting when it isn't necessary?

Or because he disagrees with you......"

Neither smarta*s, because he disregards 7 examples of how the wings stood by and DID NOTHING after a teamate was absolutely run over and jumps to the Markov Stoll incident. Moreover I am going to go further in saying you are worse then him, you actually make him look like a hockey scholar.

"I think they are all a vital element to any team and something you can never have enough of. I just don't see the logic in dedicating a roster spot to a guy whos only going to dress 10-15 games when it could be better served to a rookie. If we lacked depth and no one was ready to step in, than ok maybe to fill the roster but we've got guys knocking on the door. "

How long was Liv on the Roster? Or Meech, or Ellis or some other WASTE as you like to call it. Why not fill one of those spots with a guy that can police for our team.

"I know you guys dont think we're tough enough because we don't have anybody known for fighting, but what practical solution do you offer up to fix that? Naming off unavailable players does not help your cause."

No no no, i dont think that we are not tough enough, I know we arent tough enough. Well my practical solution would have been to sign Aaron Asham before he was signed, since that happened I have yet to bring up any names but now that you ask I will give you some UNSIGNED names. I pick Reed Low, yes cause he can fight, but more to see ppl like you on this forum cry like 8 year olds.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

Neither smarta*s, because he disregards 7 examples of how the wings stood by and DID NOTHING after a teamate was absolutely run over and jumps to the Markov Stoll incident. Moreover I am going to go further in saying you are worse then him, you actually make him look like a hockey scholar.

How long was Liv on the Roster? Or Meech, or Ellis or some other WASTE as you like to call it. Why not fill one of those spots with a guy that can police for our team.

No no no, i dont think that we are not tough enough, I know we arent tough enough. Well my practical solution would have been to sign Aaron Asham before he was signed, since that happened I have yet to bring up any names but now that you ask I will give you some UNSIGNED names. I pick Reed Low, yes cause he can fight, but more to see ppl like you on this forum cry like 8 year olds.

Easy there no need to make it personal and start name calling. Take a deep breath.

Where did I refer to anybody as Waste? Are you reading my posts? lol

Wasn't that what Norton was for yet proved completely ineffective?

You don't think theres a reason Low has only played 6 games since the lockout?

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Neither smarta*s, because he disregards 7 examples of how the wings stood by and DID NOTHING after a teamate was absolutely run over and jumps to the Markov Stoll incident. Moreover I am going to go further in saying you are worse then him, you actually make him look like a hockey scholar

Maybe he actually considers things in hockey OTHER THAN fighting. You know, like good goaltending, having a few good scorers, decent coaching, etc. That kinda makes for some decent hockey acumen and knowledge as well, not just knowing ONLY fighting and being so closed-minded about other things. Just because other posters put pretty good emphasis on other parts of the game you may not like as much, while not considering fighting s much, doesn't make them stupid. You just sound ignorant and closed-minded.

I pick Reed Low, yes cause he can fight, but more to see ppl like you on this forum cry like 8 year olds.

Well dang gum it, you caught me...

/end sarcasm

[Opie 308]

"Because he doesn't encourage fighting when it isn't necessary?

How long was Liv on the Roster? Or Meech, or Ellis or some other WASTE as you like to call it. Why not fill one of those spots with a guy that can police for our team.

Ummm Liv was a goaltender, are you suggesting the wings cut a player who at the time was the supposed future of the wings in the net, to get a fighter on the ice.

Wow if that is true you should send some of your insults your own way.

Edit: Also does Dallas Drake not address toughness in any way shape or form. He can throw down, because he hasn't done it a ton lately doesn't mean he can't or won't. Also he has shown an edgy side to his play with hits in the recent past.

As a Celtic's fan I have heard many times McHale, Bird, and Parish aren't walking through the gym to save the team, so to you I say Kocur and Probert aren't walking through the door and no one like them is available as a free agent.

Edited August 23, 2007 by Opie

[Skiing - Puck 0]

No no no, i dont think that we are not tough enough, I know we arent tough enough. Well my practical solution would have been to sign Aaron Asham before he was signed, since that happened I have yet to bring up any names but now that you ask I will give you some UNSIGNED names. I pick Reed Low, yes cause he can fight, but more to see ppl like you on this forum cry like 8 year olds.

About time I see someone else who thinks Reed Low would be a good addition. I mentioned this in a different group and was lambasted with people saying fighting is not an important part of the game. Anywas another reason a fighter would be good is that violence sells. The Joe looked empty most of last season.

[hamip1998 3]

As I mentioned in another post it seems as though the well that provided guys whom were able to play "N.American" style hockey has all but dried-up; gone are the days in which we'd see players capable of scoring goals, & fighting. Back when I became a fan of the Red Wings - the NHL was chock-full of these types of players; now they're few, & far between which IMHO is too bad since these were character guys, & the heart & soul of many teams.

Agreed. Those players are few and far between these days. The ones who are out there aren't going to be had for anything less than top dollar. Who or what would we be willing to give up to get such a player? Would it be worth it?

As for toughness and the playoffs, I am sure someone said it before, but there is a distinction between someone who can get dirty in the corners, take crosschecks and cheap shots, and come back for more and someone who throws right hands like Kocur used to. Do I wish we had a fighter? Sure, but he better be able to do more than fight.

After Homer took that hit from Pronger and Neidemayer, got stitched up, came back in the 3rd period and made the impact that he did in the game, I would take a team full of guys like Homer and Cleary rather than guys like Laraque and Boogaard. Homer IS a tough SOB.

Edited August 23, 2007 by hamip1998