Grand Rapids and the USHL

[Erack82 0]

First and foremost this thread isn't stating that there will be a USHL team coming to West Michigan, however I am working on a project analyzing the possibility of having Grand Rapids (the second largest city in the state of Michigan) having a team. This posting is a little long, but I hope you do read it all and provide some much needed feedback. Please note that I don't ever spam the boards... ever. Much thanks for those who respond in advance!

Here is a basic analysis to get the ball rolling (or puck moving if you will).

Team Name

Grand Rapids Grizzlies (derived from the old CnHL team in the 80s)

League

USHL

Population

200,000

775,000 (metro area)

Attendance Audit for Grand Rapids Sports Teams

Grand Rapids Griffins (AHL) 6,900

Grand Rapids Rampage (Arena Football) 6,500

West Michigan Whitecaps (Baseball) 5,600

Attendance Audit for Grand Rapids Regional Hockey Teams (Non-Metro Detroit)

Muskegon Fury (IHL) 3,000

Kalamazoo K-Wings (IHL) 3,300

Western Michigan Broncos (CCHA) 2,900

Michigan State Spartans (CCHA) 6,600

Marquette Rangers (NAHL) 950

Traverse City North Stars (NAHL) 800

Alpena IceDiggers (NAHL) 800

USHL Population & Attendance Audit with comparable cities with a AHL, NCAA, or USHL team

Omaha, Nebraska

400,000

825,000 (metro area)

----------

Mavericks 4,300 (CCHA)

Knights 3,500 (AHL)

Lancers 3,000 (USHL)

Des Moines, Iowa

200,000

535,000 (metro area)

----------

Stars 4,800 (AHL)

Buccaneers 3,100 (USHL)

Green Bay, Wisconsin

100,000

230,000 (metro area)

----------

Gamblers 3,400 (USHL)

Background:

The USHL has established its self as the #1 Junior Hockey league in the United States, mainly proven through the increase of college commitments and NHL draft picks from the league during the past few seasons.

As we all know, Michigan is a hotbed for hockey and already has several junior programs throughout the state, however Grand Rapids could still be a premiere venue for the league giving players the exposire of a midsized city to develop on and off the ice by creating a positive experience through the cities various cultural and recreational offerings.

With numerous CCHA programs in the state alone, my contention is that a USHL team based here could prove to be very successful with recruiting and exposure. This is all very brief (or not) so time to tell me what you think?

Questions:

What price range would be adequate to attend a game?

How many games would you attend?

If Wisconsin, Illinois, and Ohio can host USHL teams, why can't Michigan?

Do you see Grand Rapids being a viable candidate for having a USHL team based here?

Based on the statistics above, what attendance would you predict the team to have?

Would you prefer the team play out of Van Andel arena? Other? New midsized arena?

How many junior level games do you typically attend a year (NAHL/USHL)?

What other general comments/thoughts do you have?

Thanks!

Edited August 25, 2007 by Erack82

[tipetz22 0]

What price range would be adequate to attend a game?

Prices would have to be comparable to other teams ticket prices at the USHL Level. They should be lower then the other pro teams in the area Griffins ($5-$25), Rampage ($5-$85). The Whitecaps are in the $5-$10 range which probably would be an ideal range.

Also look at comparable markets that have multiple teams - preferable AHL/USL (Des Moines,Omaha). Omaha's prices are any where from $8-$14 (w/ discounts) and Des Moines's prices are $8-$13 (no discounts available).

How many games would you attend?

Zero, because I live in ATL.

If Wisconsin, Illinois, and Ohio can host USHL teams, why can't Michigan?

Market Saturation in Michigan (3 NAHL, 2 CHL, 2 IHL)?

Also, is there enough talent out there to support another team in the USHL?

Do you see Grand Rapids being a viable candidate for having a USHL team based here?

Yes, if it can be profitable for who every owns the team adn the market would support the team.

Based on the statistics above, what attendance would you predict the team to have?

3,000-3,500 based on other Grand Rapids teams, as well as other USHL teams that have an AHL teams in their market.

Would you prefer the team play out of Van Andel arena? Other? New midsized arena?

I think to build a new stadium right out of the gate would be very risky. I think playing in the VA arena or another arena that could support 5,000 people would be advantageous. If there is another arena in the area that is between the VA Arena and a local skating rink would be ideal. (Sorry, I am not familiar with the GR area)

How many junior level games do you typically attend a year (NAHL/USHL)?

Zero, none in my area, but I do attend the Gwinnett Gladiators (ECHL) games, as well many other pro teams.

What other general comments/thoughts do you have?

I think that the biggest point to look at is other markets that have many teams pro/semi-pro teams and look at the success and challenges of those USHL teams. Your initial audits are good, but my suggestion is to drill down in the data and look at other markets with USHL and AHL (or other pro teams, preferable hockey).

Edit: format

Edited August 25, 2007 by tipetz22

[Erack82 0]

To those who have added nothing to this thread, it's called getting paid to do market research. Thanks.

[BlakChamber 8]

If I were still in Michigan, a USHL team would be pretty low on my list. In GR you've got 3 NCAA programs (MSU, Ferris, WMU) within an hours drive and an AHL program right in town, I'd rather go watch any of those teams than junior hockey.

[Donaldjr2448 43]

I love the research, and infact I'm looking into working for a minor league hockey team once I graduate college, my degree will be in Business Management, and I want to work in the front office, so this topic is very interesting to me. However, I think GR is a bit taxed because of the College Teams as well as the other Teams so close to the city. I'm not sure that with the job market the way it is in Michigan that people can afford to come to games anymore, I would look at like Louisville, Cincinnati, Lexington, Cleveland, Columbus, Indianapolis and possibly Milwaukee, those ciites I think have the hunger for a team and I think would welcome anything. Columbus I think would be a good fit and would give a Team like the Bluejackets a run for there money simply because it is hard to get tickets there right now, and I think people would settle for a USHL team. Remember when Detroit had the Vipers, worked out great because getting Wings tickets was next to impossible, once they came available the Vipers went bye, bye. That is just my thoughts.

[Mule39 0]

What price range would be adequate to attend a game?

Prices would have to be comparable to other teams ticket prices at the USHL Level. They should be lower then the other pro teams in the area Griffins ($5-$25), Rampage ($5-$85). The Whitecaps are in the $5-$10 range which probably would be an ideal range.

Also look at comparable markets that have multiple teams - preferable AHL/USL (Des Moines,Omaha). Omaha's prices are any where from $8-$14 (w/ discounts) and Des Moines's prices are $8-$13 (no discounts available).

How many games would you attend?

Zero, because I live in ATL.

If Wisconsin, Illinois, and Ohio can host USHL teams, why can't Michigan?

Market Saturation in Michigan (3 NAHL, 2 CHL, 2 IHL)?

Also, is there enough talent out there to support another team in the USHL?

Do you see Grand Rapids being a viable candidate for having a USHL team based here?

Yes, if it can be profitable for who every owns the team adn the market would support the team.

Based on the statistics above, what attendance would you predict the team to have?

3,000-3,500 based on other Grand Rapids teams, as well as other USHL teams that have an AHL teams in their market.

Would you prefer the team play out of Van Andel arena? Other? New midsized arena?

I think to build a new stadium right out of the gate would be very risky. I think playing in the VA arena or another arena that could support 5,000 people would be advantageous. If there is another arena in the area that is between the VA Arena and a local skating rink would be ideal. (Sorry, I am not familiar with the GR area)

How many junior level games do you typically attend a year (NAHL/USHL)?

Zero, none in my area, but I do attend the Gwinnett Gladiators (ECHL) games, as well many other pro teams.

What other general comments/thoughts do you have?

I think that the biggest point to look at is other markets that have many teams pro/semi-pro teams and look at the success and challenges of those USHL teams. Your initial audits are good, but my suggestion is to drill down in the data and look at other markets with USHL and AHL (or other pro teams, preferable hockey).

Edit: format

4 IHL teams...Port Huron, Flint,Muskegon and Kzoo.

[lfd250 1]

You're forgetting the IHL.

Kalamazoo

Muskegon

are both in the area,

also,

Flint, Port Huron, Saginaw?

Not to mention the guys of Compuware and what ever league their in.

There's too much hockey to support another team. Now if you played in the summer....

[Erack82 0]

I'm not sure that with the job market the way it is in Michigan that people can afford to come to games anymore, I would look at like Louisville, Cincinnati, Lexington, Cleveland, Columbus, Indianapolis and possibly Milwaukee, those ciites I think have the hunger for a team and I think would welcome anything. Columbus I think would be a good fit and would give a Team like the Bluejackets a run for there money simply because it is hard to get tickets there right now, and I think people would settle for a USHL team.

Columbus and Indianapolis both already have a USHL team and Cleveland has the Barons of the NAHL. Milwaukee would be an interesting investigation though even if they already have the Admirals (AHL). UW is still a healthy 2+ hours away as is Green Bay.

Remember when Detroit had the Vipers, worked out great because getting Wings tickets was next to impossible, once they came available the Vipers went bye, bye. That is just my thoughts.

I would actually trace the start of the downfall for the Vipers organization when they became affiliated with the Tampa Bay Lightning coupled with the fact the whole league was beginning a downward spiral as well. When a team goes from 50+ wins to 50+ losses in one season, there aren't going to be many people showing up in the stands. I have a feeling that if they Vipers were to somehow stay a powerhouse as they once were, they might still be around. There were several IHL teams that transfered over who had moderate success ie: the Chicago Wolves.

In GR you've got 3 NCAA programs (MSU, Ferris, WMU)

Forgot about FSU. Thanks.

Edited August 26, 2007 by Erack82

[lfd250 1]

Columbus has college basket ball and hockey. Part of the CCHA

[joshy207 156]

I would actually trace the start of the downfall for the Vipers organization when they became affiliated with the Tampa Bay Lightning coupled with the fact the whole league was beginning a downward spiral as well. When a team goes from 50+ wins to 50+ losses in one season, there aren't going to be many people showing up in the stands. I have a feeling that if they Vipers were to somehow stay a powerhouse as they once were, they might still be around.

I always thought, when the Wings were resurrecting their AHL affiliate, they should have put it in Detroit instead of hooking up with the Griffins. Not that GR hasn't worked out very well... just would have been a chance for the Wings to make a little more money, and for Wings fans who couldn't afford or get NHL tickets to still see some good, Wings-affiliated hockey.

[Erack82 0]

I always thought, when the Wings were resurrecting their AHL affiliate, they should have put it in Detroit instead of hooking up with the Griffins. Not that GR hasn't worked out very well... just would have been a chance for the Wings to make a little more money, and for Wings fans who couldn't afford or get NHL tickets to still see some good, Wings-affiliated hockey.

I would have to imagine that part of the reason Grand Rapids was so appealing was partly that the Ottawa Senators built the Griffins from nothing. You could ask the question as to why would you want to start from scratch when the city and team had a solid foundation to make the transition so much easier. It makes sense in theory and through execution (as proven thus far). I was figuring that it would only be a matter of time before the Wings scooped them up to make them their primary affiliate. Anyways do you care to answer any of my questions from the original post

[Donaldjr2448 43]

Columbus and Indianapolis both already have a USHL team and Cleveland has the Barons of the NAHL. Milwaukee would be an interesting investigation though even if they already have the Admirals (AHL). UW is still a healthy 2+ hours away as is Green Bay.

I would actually trace the start of the downfall for the Vipers organization when they became affiliated with the Tampa Bay Lightning coupled with the fact the whole league was beginning a downward spiral as well. When a team goes from 50+ wins to 50+ losses in one season, there aren't going to be many people showing up in the stands. I have a feeling that if they Vipers were to somehow stay a powerhouse as they once were, they might still be around. There were several IHL teams that transfered over who had moderate success ie: the Chicago Wolves.

Forgot about FSU. Thanks.

What about Hamilton Ontario, I know that they have the Bulldogs, but if they would have gotten an NHL franchise they still would have had the Bulldogs. I don't know about Southern Illinois, but I don't think there is much down there in the way of Hockey, Hell even Kansas City may be interesting!!

I forgot that Tampa Bay had ties to the Vipers, and now that I remember that was the beginning of the end for them, but I think didn't New Jersey have the affiliate rights to the Vipers when they began?? I remember for some reason the Peter Sykora was on the Vipers then was playing in Jersey, could be wrong about that!

I would seriously consider Louisville or Lexington, I know that College B-Ball is huge there, but I think a Junior Hockey team could do well there, it gives the public another option, I don't think its too far south to worry, and I think there would be enough interest to draw 4-5000 fans during a homestand. I thought about possibly having a team like that down south of Nashville, around the Franklin, Spring Hill area. There are a ton of Wings fans down here that would love to see hockey in there back yards!!!

[joshy207 156]

I would have to imagine that part of the reason Grand Rapids was so appealing was partly that the Ottawa Senators built the Griffins from nothing. You could ask the question as to why would you want to start from scratch when the city and team had a solid foundation to make the transition so much easier. It makes sense in theory and through execution (as proven thus far). I was figuring that it would only be a matter of time before the Wings scooped them up to make them their primary affiliate. Anyways do you care to answer any of my questions from the original post

I agree, the relationship with GR is a natural, and the Senators did a wonderful job helping get them off the ground. I'm not complaining at all, just noting that a Red Wing-affiliated AHL team could have worked here despite the failures of every other minor-league and Junior A team in the metro area, for the lone reason that it's "Red Wings".

As for the original post... I think for a team to work in GR, tickets would have to be cheap ($5-15). A good location would have been the DeltaPlex, they've hosted similar level hockey teams before, but they sold their boards and compressor, so that's out. There really isn't anything between a community-style rink and the Van Andel--nothing with real seats that would hold 2-4 thousand people.

Michigan's a funny place, junior hockey has a real hard time gaining a foothold in most of our communities. The only teams that have done moderately well are Traverse City and Alpena, but they're both the only show in town--no college or pro teams to compete with. Detroit used to have 4 NAHL Jr. A teams 10 years ago, but they're all gone because none of them could make any money. Even Compuware, a nationally prominent team, lost 250K every year. They played to an empty arena at the end of their existence. The only time they drew really well was when Lindros played there for the first part of the 1989-90 season. Kalamazoo and Saginaw teams failed as well. Even college hockey doesn't draw well in Detroit, unless it's Michigan vs. Michigan State. Grand Rapids would face a similar battle for market share, fighting the WIngs, Griffs, college teams, and even the Jr. B Owls, not to mention all the high school teams. Having a roster laden with West Michigan talent would help, but it would still be a struggle.

Overall, I don't think a USHL team would be able to make it in GR.

[Hiei 192]

One Question.

What about Benton Harbor, MI?

What about Battle Creek, MI?

Edited August 26, 2007 by Hiei

[lfd250 1]

One Question.

What about Benton Harbor, MI?

What about Battle Creek, MI?

Battle Creek have the K-wings 20 min away as long as it's not snowing.

Benton Harbor probably wouldn't work I don't think a lot of people head that way, and what's to keep them from makeing it a weekend in Chicago.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

This would be low on my list. Grand Rapids has flirted with this before. Currently they have the Grand Rapids Owls, a juinor B team. The team is a joke, and I wouldn't be suprised if they folded soon. They average about 20 fans a game. About 10 years ago they had the Bearcats, a Juinor A team. That went alright for a while, but ownership, arena, and the Griffins screwed that one up.

[Rob the Badger 0]

DP Fox wouldn't allow the Junior team to play at the Van. So that would force them to play at the Deltaplex, and not too many fans are going to show up for a juniors team at the old barn. They'd be lucky to draw 500 fans a night, if that. A juniors team would be better off trying in a different venue.

[Mickeyisms Rule! 0]

I always thought, when the Wings were resurrecting their AHL affiliate, they should have put it in Detroit instead of hooking up with the Griffins. Not that GR hasn't worked out very well... just would have been a chance for the Wings to make a little more money, and for Wings fans who couldn't afford or get NHL tickets to still see some good, Wings-affiliated hockey.

When the Vipers were still around, I would have agreed with you. The Griffins were actually affiliated with Ottawa at the time. Pavel Demitra used to play here.

I think that the Wings affiliating with GR has been a wonderful success. Not only is it a straight shot down I-96 to get players called up and sent back, but it also allows people in another part of the state to better identify with the organization.

When we see Hudler, Flip, Kronwall, Meech, Howard, and Quincey out there playing, we already know about how well they play, because we have been watching them for years.

As for a junior team in GR, I don't think it would draw very well with the current economic climate.

It would be a possibility after our governess sells the state, though.

[Opie 308]

There is a QMJHL team in Lewiston, Maine, the town next to the one I lived in until last year.

I thought it would fall on its face. The arena was old, dirty, and the parking lot was a sloped dirt one that in wet weather it turned into a mud bath.

The team and the city put some money into it and they now average about 2000 people a game. Of course on the weekends it is better than the week, but even during the week when Sid the Kid showed up that place was packed.

The local police who are off duty always sit in the same section behind the away bench with a big siren making all kinds of noise. It is a great feel and environment.

The Pirates are about a half an hour away and have cheaper tickets and do not get the same kind of attendance numbers. Of course it helps that A) there is no NHL team within two states, B) The Maineiacs won the league title last year (losing one game in the post season).

It is a great idea, but if they were to try and make it work in Michigan I think it would fall flat.

Even though the population in Michigan is a hell of a lot more than Maine, Mainers do not have the options that Michiganders (is that a word) have.

I guess it really depends how far west the team will be from Detroit and GR.

Hope that helps at least a little, if not typing this was not the biggest waste of time I have had all day so no real loss.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Opie

[Guest jaytan]

I wouldn't bother putting a USHL team in Grand Rapids. There's all ready more than enough for a fan in the area to choose from, and the quality is better as well. The drop in price wouldn't be significant enough to make a difference.... But I don't live there. I could be wrong.