The Wings' biggest obstacle

[Echolalia 2,961]

All you people who say look to last years playoffs as evidence of our grit need to wake up. We lost our two most physical defenseman in Schneider and Markov. We replaced them with nobody and a smallish playmaking defenceman (Rafalski). We lost two of our biggest bodies in Lang and Bertuzzi. While Lang was by no means a physical player, he was hard for opposing teams to move. We replaced them with an injury prone player in the twilight of his career (Drake) and nobody. We are hurting in the grit department and this team will not be the same one as in last year's playoffs. Don't think that it was just coincidence that once Bertuzzi started playing regularly that the team started to play more physical.

I'm guessing you didn't see the playoffs either. Schneider, Markov, and Bertuzzi weren't the only ones out there hitting. Dan Cleary rattled Phaneuf. Datsyuk knocked someone on his ass. A couple times, actually. Zetterberg was rushing into the corners with ferocity. Lebda was hitting. The Paintrain was giving out free tickets. Chelios was dishing out some good hits. Everyone was being physical and not letting themselves get intimidated. Do we have an overtly physical team? No. Do we get into fights regularly? Not by any means. Can we hold our own with the best of them if the time calls for it? Theres no doubt.

[Guest Crymson]

The Blues will be the toughest team in the division. That isn't saying much, however.

Anaheim and San Jose will win every game against the Wings this year, unless Bob Probert comes out of retirement.

Yeah, just like we had no chance in a seven-game series against San Jose last year.

All you people who say look to last years playoffs as evidence of our grit need to wake up. We lost our two most physical defenseman in Schneider and Markov. We replaced them with nobody and a smallish playmaking defenceman (Rafalski). We lost two of our biggest bodies in Lang and Bertuzzi. While Lang was by no means a physical player, he was hard for opposing teams to move. We replaced them with an injury prone player in the twilight of his career (Drake) and nobody. We are hurting in the grit department and this team will not be the same one as in last year's playoffs. Don't think that it was just coincidence that once Bertuzzi started playing regularly that the team started to play more physical.

Great, let's all do the only thing that's within our power as relates to your argument--completely panic--right now! Why, perhaps we should even write off the entire season before it even starts!

Edited September 4, 2007 by Crymson

[VM1138 1,921]

"Perhaps the Injury Bug... if we stay healthy, I honestly dont think theres a team with our mix of skill and grit. Yes some teams have more grit, but few can put the skill wiht it."

Frankly, skill doesn't matter. If you can goon your way up (say, like Anaheim did, with the exception of Niedermeyer and Selanne), that's all you need to win. Grit+Skill is no match for Pure Goonery.

[jerm8352 3]

Yeah, just like we had no chance in a seven-game series against San Jose last year.

Great, let's all do the only thing that's within our power as relates to your argument--completely panic--right now! Why, perhaps we should even write off the entire season before it even starts!

Did I say we should panic? NO! But getting all excited that this is somehow a better, more physical team than last year is delusional. Where did I ever even come close to saying anything about panic?

Edited September 5, 2007 by jerm8352

[puckloo39 5,686]

I'm guessing you didn't see the playoffs either. Schneider, Markov, and Bertuzzi weren't the only ones out there hitting. Dan Cleary rattled Phaneuf. Datsyuk knocked someone on his ass. A couple times, actually. Zetterberg was rushing into the corners with ferocity. Lebda was hitting. The Paintrain was giving out free tickets. Chelios was dishing out some good hits. Everyone was being physical and not letting themselves get intimidated. Do we have an overtly physical team? No. Do we get into fights regularly? Not by any means. Can we hold our own with the best of them if the time calls for it? Theres no doubt.

[jerm8352 3]

I'm guessing you didn't see the playoffs either. Schneider, Markov, and Bertuzzi weren't the only ones out there hitting. Dan Cleary rattled Phaneuf. Datsyuk knocked someone on his ass. A couple times, actually. Zetterberg was rushing into the corners with ferocity. Lebda was hitting. The Paintrain was giving out free tickets. Chelios was dishing out some good hits. Everyone was being physical and not letting themselves get intimidated. Do we have an overtly physical team? No. Do we get into fights regularly? Not by any means. Can we hold our own with the best of them if the time calls for it? Theres no doubt.

But we didn't hold our own, hence we didn't win the Cup. Other people playing mean and nasty makes the rest of the team play that way. Just watch the little guys Perry and Kunitz running around the rink like they own the place on Anaheim. They know that if they hit somebody, they got Neidermayer, Getzlaf, Pronger, etc. to stick up for them. Who do the Wings have? They did have Markov, they did have Bertuzzi and even to some extent Schneider. Those players are gone. Yes, Dan Cleary killed Phaneuf. Yes, Zetterberg and Datsyuk played more physical. But I don't see anybody that scared of being hit by Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Lebda. Physical play is contagious. I believe I said that in my post. This team will not be as physical as last years team. Did I say Panic? No! And quite frankly, I watch every minute of every Wings game all year and have for the last 15+ years. Don't tell me I didn't see the playoffs.

[Opie 308]

But we didn't hold our own, hence we didn't win the Cup. Other people playing mean and nasty makes the rest of the team play that way. Just watch the little guys Perry and Kunitz running around the rink like they own the place on Anaheim. They know that if they hit somebody, they got Neidermayer, Getzlaf, Pronger, etc. to stick up for them. Who do the Wings have? They did have Markov, they did have Bertuzzi and even to some extent Schneider. Those players are gone. Yes, Dan Cleary killed Phaneuf. Yes, Zetterberg and Datsyuk played more physical. But I don't see anybody that scared of being hit by Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Lebda. Physical play is contagious. I believe I said that in my post. This team will not be as physical as last years team. Did I say Panic? No! And quite frankly, I watch every minute of every Wings game all year and have for the last 15+ years. Don't tell me I didn't see the playoffs.

I will continue to say this, it is my opinion but here it is anyways. Tthe wings lost the series to the ducks because the PP s*** the bed. Two 5-3 pp that were not scored on, I will agree with you that this team is not physical or is not tough enough, but that series was one goal from going in Detroits favor, if the 5-3 scores one goal the series swings momentum.

If Anaheim beat Detroit all over the ice and detroit never got anything going, then yes I would agree but that is not what happened. The wings pp sucked a bag.

[Echolalia 2,961]

But we didn't hold our own, hence we didn't win the Cup. Other people playing mean and nasty makes the rest of the team play that way. Just watch the little guys Perry and Kunitz running around the rink like they own the place on Anaheim. They know that if they hit somebody, they got Neidermayer, Getzlaf, Pronger, etc. to stick up for them. Who do the Wings have? They did have Markov, they did have Bertuzzi and even to some extent Schneider. Those players are gone. Yes, Dan Cleary killed Phaneuf. Yes, Zetterberg and Datsyuk played more physical. But I don't see anybody that scared of being hit by Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Lebda. Physical play is contagious. I believe I said that in my post. This team will not be as physical as last years team. Did I say Panic? No! And quite frankly, I watch every minute of every Wings game all year and have for the last 15+ years. Don't tell me I didn't see the playoffs.

I don't believe the wings became physical because Markov or Bertuzzi was on the team. They were physical because they had to be to survive in the playoffs. Markov didn't dish the first hit out. Bertuzzi didn't either. Everyone came out hitting at once, and everyone was taken completely by surprise from the Flames to the media. I'm sure Babcock gave a huge spiel about how the wings need to play with physicality if they expect to go anywhere. And they did.

Furthermore, the Wings didn't loose the playoffs because they "weren't" physical. Actually I believe we outhit Anaheim in that series (but don't quote me on that). We had that series in the bag, anyone will tell you that. We were up 2 to 1 in the series, almost 3 to 1, but they got a fluky goal off of Lidstrom's stick (not related to physical play, mind you), and a fluky fanned pass from Lilja which happened to fly right to Selanne right in front of our net (also unrelated to how physical we were playing). Someone else mentioned that our special teams sucked. That also killed us. We gave up numerous 5 on 3 advantages which could've easily put the series away. We never capitalized. Simple as that.

[jerm8352 3]

Opie, thank you. You stated your opinion and made points. It seems that everyone else just wants to say that everyone who disagrees with them is "in a panic", or not a fan of the team. That has been going on all summer. You disagree with someone, "you're not a fan. You are in panic mode. Let's not even play the season." That's how the boards have been lately.

I don't believe the wings became physical because Markov or Bertuzzi was on the team. They were physical because they had to be to survive in the playoffs. Markov didn't dish the first hit out. Bertuzzi didn't either. Everyone came out hitting at once, and everyone was taken completely by surprise from the Flames to the media. I'm sure Babcock gave a huge spiel about how the wings need to play with physicality if they expect to go anywhere. And they did.

Furthermore, the Wings didn't loose the playoffs because they "weren't" physical. Actually I believe we outhit Anaheim in that series (but don't quote me on that). We had that series in the bag, anyone will tell you that. We were up 2 to 1 in the series, almost 3 to 1, but they got a fluky goal off of Lidstrom's stick (not related to physical play, mind you), and a fluky fanned pass from Lilja which happened to fly right to Selanne right in front of our net (also unrelated to how physical we were playing). Someone else mentioned that our special teams sucked. That also killed us. We gave up numerous 5 on 3 advantages which could've easily put the series away. We never capitalized. Simple as that.

I never said that they lost because we weren't physical enough. I simply said that we are not as physical this year as we were last year. We lost a bunch of physical players, that can not be argued. I appreciate this post a lot more. You actually atated reasons instead of saying I was in a panic and that I didn't watch the games. But, whether we outhit Anaheim or not on the stat sheet I think is irrelevant. Anaheim was a much more physical team than we were. A tap in the corner by Lebda might count on the stat sheet, but I don't think that three of them even equal to one hit by Pronger or whoever. We might have "outhit" them, but they were bigger, stronger, and more physical than we were.

[Guest Crymson]

But we didn't hold our own, hence we didn't win the Cup. Other people playing mean and nasty makes the rest of the team play that way. Just watch the little guys Perry and Kunitz running around the rink like they own the place on Anaheim. They know that if they hit somebody, they got Neidermayer, Getzlaf, Pronger, etc. to stick up for them. Who do the Wings have? They did have Markov, they did have Bertuzzi and even to some extent Schneider. Those players are gone. Yes, Dan Cleary killed Phaneuf. Yes, Zetterberg and Datsyuk played more physical. But I don't see anybody that scared of being hit by Datsyuk, Zetterberg, or Lebda. Physical play is contagious. I believe I said that in my post. This team will not be as physical as last years team. Did I say Panic? No! And quite frankly, I watch every minute of every Wings game all year and have for the last 15+ years. Don't tell me I didn't see the playoffs.

Attaboy! I know you've already spent a long time rehearsing your speech as to why we shouldn't be excited! Now, take all that practice and by goodness convince everyone else that you're right!

In other words: why are you spending effort in trying to argue that we should have LESS hope and LESS excitement for this year's team? Consider it.

Edited September 5, 2007 by Crymson

[Vincanni 1]

I believe with signing Langfield, Nashville has turned a tumultuous off-season into a recalibrated machine. No doubt Josh's punishing style of play will be a thorn in our side for the 8 games we'll have to deal with him.

[jerm8352 3]

Attaboy! I know you've already spent a long time rehearsing your speech as to why we shouldn't be excited! Now, take all that practice and by goodness convince everyone else that you're right!

In other words: why are you spending effort in trying to argue that we should have LESS hope and LESS excitement for this year's team? Consider it.

Yet again, please show me where I ever said anything about panic or not to be excited!!!! In other words: why are you spending effort talking about things that I never even said or brought up!

[labeau55 0]

Yet again, please show me where I ever said anything about panic or not to be excited!!!! In other words: why are you spending effort talking about things that I never even said or brought up!

Give the man a break. He made a correct point that we lost some of our grit and you all jump on him like he is a five year old who watched one game with his dad and has no hockey knowledge. Just because someone disagrees with you doesnt mean they are in a panic or think the season is lost. People can have opinions.

Okay rant over.

I think that as other people have mentioned, that the Wings need to be scoring thier goals at big times in big games. Missing on 5-on-3 s and powerplays killed them against the Ducks and in order to win your powerplay has to be going.

[Opie 308]

While it is true that this team is nowhere near the most physical or toughest team on the ice, I think that is a direct reflection of the front office more than the coaching staff or the players themselves.

I think the front office sees that Bettman is slowly taking fighting out of the game and is building towards that mold of NHL while still staying competitive.

I think if Babs had his way he would have a grueling d-man and a forward that could go out there and just wreak havoc.

That is not the case in Detroit, and whether or not I think a guy like Hartnell, Asham or whomever would be good for this team. Holland, Nil and others have seen success with this "soft" European team (I don't think they are soft, to call a hockey player soft is to disrespect the game IMO)

They are starting to tweak that a little bit, and find some tougher Euros, like Franzen, and grab a couple of N. Americans that play a hard style of game, Cleary. I for one would love to see Cleary hit like he did Phanuef a lot more, but my biggest desire is for this team to win. And in order to do that all of the guys have to play their game. If you all of the sudden asked Zetterberg (not that this would ever happen, exaggeration) to be a physical brute out there and just run around hitting people, you would see that his game would suffer dramatically. The team needs to bring in one maybe two Tougher guys to add to team toughness.

Having said that, I believe the addition of Drake could very well be that addition needed. He plays a tougher game, albeit dirtier at times, (the two seem to go hand in hand) and according to Babs he is to be Kopecky's mentor.

Two tougher guys for the the league min maybe.

Either way I am excited about this season, the wings should be a lock for the central which gives them a chance to do some different things with different players.

I for one would love to see the following line up, even if only for a game or two to see how the guys do with it:

Sammy- Z- Homer (Proven line)

Huds - Dats - Grigs (Come on with Dats, this line is so Money, just wanted to use the swingers quote)

Cleary - Franzen - Flip (My favorite line combo in my head)

Kopecky - Draper - Drake (this could be a very good checking/d line)

And even in these lines I think anyone on that third line could swap with grigs and huds.

Hey Jerm-

Thanks for the compliment, from time to time around here some good debates not arguments find there way through!!!!!

[jerm8352 3]

Thank you for pointing out that this is a discussion board!

I will agree that our power play did disappear at crucial times and that was a factor in our loss to the Ducks.

While it is true that this team is nowhere near the most physical or toughest team on the ice, I think that is a direct reflection of the front office more than the coaching staff or the players themselves.

I think the front office sees that Bettman is slowly taking fighting out of the game and is building towards that mold of NHL while still staying competitive.

I think if Babs had his way he would have a grueling d-man and a forward that could go out there and just wreak havoc.

That is not the case in Detroit, and whether or not I think a guy like Hartnell, Asham or whomever would be good for this team. Holland, Nil and others have seen success with this "soft" European team (I don't think they are soft, to call a hockey player soft is to disrespect the game IMO)

They are starting to tweak that a little bit, and find some tougher Euros, like Franzen, and grab a couple of N. Americans that play a hard style of game, Cleary. I for one would love to see Cleary hit like he did Phanuef a lot more, but my biggest desire is for this team to win. And in order to do that all of the guys have to play their game. If you all of the sudden asked Zetterberg (not that this would ever happen, exaggeration) to be a physical brute out there and just run around hitting people, you would see that his game would suffer dramatically. The team needs to bring in one maybe two Tougher guys to add to team toughness.

Having said that, I believe the addition of Drake could very well be that addition needed. He plays a tougher game, albeit dirtier at times, (the two seem to go hand in hand) and according to Babs he is to be Kopecky's mentor.

Two tougher guys for the the league min maybe.

Either way I am excited about this season, the wings should be a lock for the central which gives them a chance to do some different things with different players.

I for one would love to see the following line up, even if only for a game or two to see how the guys do with it:

Sammy- Z- Homer (Proven line)

Huds - Dats - Grigs (Come on with Dats, this line is so Money, just wanted to use the swingers quote)

Cleary - Franzen - Flip (My favorite line combo in my head)

Kopecky - Draper - Drake (this could be a very good checking/d line)

And even in these lines I think anyone on that third line could swap with grigs and huds.

Hey Jerm-

Thanks for the compliment, from time to time around here some good debates not arguments find there way through!!!!!

I totally agree with your statement about Zetterberg. People here are all excited because he hit someone. But we don't want him or Datsyuk hitting people. That only takes them away from there game and gets them hurt. We need other people to hit them. I am not saying we bring in the Charlestown Chiefs and goon it up, but a physical, hulking defenceman and someone to throw around the other teams physical defenceman would greatly help this team.

[vangvace 12]

Injuries... and failing to live up to expectations because of this past season.

It's going to be an interesting season and I'm so looking forward to it. I think that there will be a few surprises and more than a few hate filled threads on the board.

Side note 1: I think that the Ducks, Sharks, and Flames will win the reg season series, but it's not the playoffs and the band isn't in tune yet so the dance really won't have begun.

Side note 2: (for Opie's thoughts esp) The pendulem's seems to be starting to swing back towards pro-fighting on the minor league level, or at least stop moving towards all out ban on fighting. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out over the next few years.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

but I'm willing to bet the Blues are going to give us some trouble this year, also. I believe we split the season with them last year (plus or minus a game or so), and they've only gotten better since then.

I think a lot of those were lame shootout ties, but certainly the addition of Kariya and the maturation of their youth could make for a good season series.

We lost our two most physical defenseman in Schneider and Markov. We replaced them with nobody and a smallish playmaking defenceman (Rafalski).

I agree losing Markov hurts but I was never very impressed with Mathieu's so-called toughness anyways. He liked to push and shove and throw out the occasional big hit (often risking his defensive assignment...) but he wasn't exactly a tower of power; his impact on the power play was ten fold any sort of "toughness" he brought to the ice.

Hoping that Kronwall can stay healthy enough to participate this season would be good enough for me to fill the void, but that's looking to be a trickier situation every season...

We lost two of our biggest bodies in Lang and Bertuzzi. While Lang was by no means a physical player, he was hard for opposing teams to move. We replaced them with an injury prone player in the twilight of his career (Drake) and nobody.

Lang and Bert for Drake and Grigorenko... fair trade to me. Bert was a beast but Lang never did s***, so you can go ahead and drop that angle right now. Drake can still lay on a hit and Grigs is a bullish fella. We still have guys like Dano and Franzen who are just now starting to play their A game and hit some people.

Far from the biggest and strongest, sure. And I feel we may have lost a small bit of toughness but the impact of it is something that's being overblown. The Sharks certainly didn't lose to Wings because of toughness, and the Wings didn't to the Ducks either.

[jerm8352 3]

I think a lot of those were lame shootout ties, but certainly the addition of Kariya and the maturation of their youth could make for a good season series.

I agree losing Markov hurts but I was never very impressed with Mathieu's so-called toughness anyways. He liked to push and shove and throw out the occasional big hit (often risking his defensive assignment...) but he wasn't exactly a tower of power; his impact on the power play was ten fold any sort of "toughness" he brought to the ice.

Hoping that Kronwall can stay healthy enough to participate this season would be good enough for me to fill the void, but that's looking to be a trickier situation every season...

Lang and Bert for Drake and Grigorenko... fair trade to me. Bert was a beast but Lang never did s***, so you can go ahead and drop that angle right now. Drake can still lay on a hit and Grigs is a bullish fella. We still have guys like Dano and Franzen who are just now starting to play their A game and hit some people.

Far from the biggest and strongest, sure. And I feel we may have lost a small bit of toughness but the impact of it is something that's being overblown. The Sharks certainly didn't lose to Wings because of toughness, and the Wings didn't to the Ducks either.

I agree that Schneider is not that physical of a player but in relation to the rest of defense the last few seasons, he is a brute. Grigorenko has potential but has never played the North American game, is less than six feet tall, and with his injury history is a huge question mark. Franzen can be agressive and hit people but he is not consistent with it at all. He goes through three or four games hitting everything that moves and then disappears from the rough stuff for a week or two. If he could become more consistent I could agree with your argument. The same with Cleary. If he played all year like he did in the playoffs physically, I would be more apt to agree with you.

[Opie 308]

Jerm,

I think Grig's injury history is a little different than say a guy like Kronwall. Grig's injury came from a car crash, not saying it couldn't cause a repetitive injury issue for him, but Kronwall's injuries are all hockey related which scares me a whole hell of a lot more than Grig's does.

I agree with you about Franzen and Cleary and that is why I want them on the same line, and Babcock to tell them "your job is to wear teams out physically as best you can. Hit guys, play physical and tough in the corners, use your body to push people around."

I don't want them looking for the type of hit Cleary put on Phanuef every shift that would only get him caught out of position, but if the hit is there take it, if Mule can get in scrum and body his way around, that will wear on teams.

I think this year Babcock will have a younger more aggressive checking line. Not the Grindline of old but with Cleary and Franzen you have to guys that can use the body and have some really good offensive upside. A guy like Kopecky (who is supposed to be mentored by Drake) or like Flip, Huds, or even Grigs (great offensive upside) would make that line click, and be a great secondary line for the wings.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I never said that they lost because we weren't physical enough. I simply said that we are not as physical this year as we were last year.

My original response was in reference to our physicality, and nothing else. When you responded to my original post by "But we didn't hold our own, hence we didn't win the Cup", I took that as "we weren't physical enough, hence we didn't win the cup", as I was talking strictly about our physicality when I said we can hold our own.

You actually atated reasons instead of saying I was in a panic and that I didn't watch the games.

I support my arguments regularly and I also didn't say anything about "panic-mode". I believe you're mistaken me with someone else (which actually has been happening a lot, lately).

We lost a bunch of physical players, that can not be argued. But, whether we outhit Anaheim or not on the stat sheet I think is irrelevant. Anaheim was a much more physical team than we were. A tap in the corner by Lebda might count on the stat sheet, but I don't think that three of them even equal to one hit by Pronger or whoever. We might have "outhit" them, but they were bigger, stronger, and more physical than we were.

I agree wholeheartedly. However, the whole point of checking someone is to (a) separate them from the puck and (b) intimidate them for future occasions. The only thing a "huge" hit gives that normal "Lebda taps" can't give is a bigger ego, and is really irrelevant to the game if you aren't going to be intimidated. Any type of decent check (not necessarily the "Pronger" checks) can achieve the first point, and we proved in the playoffs last year that we aren't going to be intimidated. Yes it would be nice to have a "big hitter" or an enforcer on the team, but I think they achieve a lot more in inspiration than anything else. imo to have a big hitter for big hits' sake is an irrelevant luxury in the new nhl.

Edited September 5, 2007 by Echolalia

[GMRwings1983 8,793]

Anaheim won becuase they were a more clutch team than us at the end of games. Take the two big goals by Niedermayer and the overtime goal by Selanne, and then you'll see why we lost the series. Also, Hasek played poorly in the series as opposed to how he played the rest of the playoffs, and he was soundly outplayed by Giguere.

[jerm8352 3]

My original response was in reference to our physicality, and nothing else. When you responded to my original post by "But we didn't hold our own, hence we didn't win the Cup", I took that as "we weren't physical enough, hence we didn't win the cup", as I was talking strictly about our physicality when I said we can hold our own.

I support my arguments regularly and I also didn't say anything about "panic-mode". I believe you're mistaken me with someone else (which actually has been happening a lot, lately).

I agree wholeheartedly. However, the whole point of checking someone is to (a) separate them from the puck and (b) intimidate them for future occasions. The only thing a "huge" hit gives that normal "Lebda taps" can't give is a bigger ego, and is really irrelevant to the game if you aren't going to be intimidated. Any type of decent check (not necessarily the "Pronger" checks) can achieve the first point, and we proved in the playoffs last year that we aren't going to be intimidated. Yes it would be nice to have a "big hitter" or an enforcer on the team, but I think they achieve a lot more in inspiration than anything else. imo to have a big hitter for big hits' sake is an irrelevant luxury in the new nhl.

Echolalia, I'm sorry. You didn't say I went into panic mode but others did. However, I do not believe that anybody on this team right now with the exception of maybe Drake is capable of intimidating anyone physically. I see that as a huge problem in the game of hockey.

Jerm,

I think Grig's injury history is a little different than say a guy like Kronwall. Grig's injury came from a car crash, not saying it couldn't cause a repetitive injury issue for him, but Kronwall's injuries are all hockey related which scares me a whole hell of a lot more than Grig's does.

I agree with you about Franzen and Cleary and that is why I want them on the same line, and Babcock to tell them "your job is to wear teams out physically as best you can. Hit guys, play physical and tough in the corners, use your body to push people around."

I don't want them looking for the type of hit Cleary put on Phanuef every shift that would only get him caught out of position, but if the hit is there take it, if Mule can get in scrum and body his way around, that will wear on teams.

I think this year Babcock will have a younger more aggressive checking line. Not the Grindline of old but with Cleary and Franzen you have to guys that can use the body and have some really good offensive upside. A guy like Kopecky (who is supposed to be mentored by Drake) or like Flip, Huds, or even Grigs (great offensive upside) would make that line click, and be a great secondary line for the wings.

Opie, I agree that Kronwall and Grigorenko's injuries are completely different. But I'm being cautious with a guy who is not the same player that he was before the accident and that has never played NHL or even North American hockey before. I just don't think that he is going to have a huge physical impact this year like a lot of people are banking on.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Echolalia, I'm sorry. You didn't say I went into panic mode but others did. However, I do not believe that anybody on this team right now with the exception of maybe Drake is capable of intimidating anyone physically. I see that as a huge problem in the game of hockey.

Tis fine. And I agree. Where I disagree though is that its a huge problem, and I think thats as close to each other on the subject that we're going to get