Training Camp: Day 3

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

http://redwingscorner.blogspot.com/2007/09...-scrimmage.html

Im really starting to like Downey and Sopel, there both playing really well.

Im liking Adam Keefe also, I think we've found our next Booter!

[Cicada 4]

i'm reserving opinion on all players until the exibition season is at least 1/2 way done....

i still don't see Downey brining anything to the Wings..

i'd like to see Sopel paired with someone other than Lidstrom to see how he does.

[SweWings 45]

damn...where did the rhino go?

EDIT: Forgot big boy Rex doin his thang...good for him...

Edited September 16, 2007 by SweWings

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

He must not have been notable today. Which isnt a bad thing, just not a good thing lol.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

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[hillbillywingsfan 792]

never really read or seen a whole lot about the camps but they really get that mad at each other to fight? even when being on the same team so to speak

Edited September 16, 2007 by hillbillywingsfan

[Andy Pred 48 337]

Hey, if your trying to make the Wings roster you'd scrap with your own

granny!!

[Mickeyisms Rule! 0]

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Check the pitcure of Jimmy Howard skating sprints (pic #5). OMG he is teh fastest man on skates ALIVE!!

[Kp-Wings 3]

Downey's been great so far. I really hope Holland signs him on as like a #13 forward or something. It'd be nice to have him for games against teams like Anaheim, when the going get's rough.

Keefe is really impressive. If given the right opportunity, we could breed a good fighter right through the system, and he could be like a McCarty-type player (he has shown some offensive capabilities, especially in this training camp). At worst, he'd end up another Ryan Barnes.

Neil Clark I don't know much about yet... I'm trying to find out some more about him though. He looks like another we could put through the system, and see how it turns out.

Fighters aside: I like Sopel for making the team. He seems to be playing pretty well so far, and has decent NHL expierence. I think he'd be a good fit for our blueline.

[Hank 0]

I'm happy to hear that Emmerton is doing well. It's impressive that a 19 year old is sticking out amongst a group of veteran pro players.

I wonder if they still have plans for him to stay at centre and not leftwing.

With Zetts, Dats and Filp I have a hard time believing Emmerton or McGrath will have a chance of cracking this lineup as a skilled pivot in the next 4-7 years.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

i'm reserving opinion on all players until the exibition season is at least 1/2 way done....

i still don't see Downey brining anything to the Wings..

i'd like to see Sopel paired with someone other than Lidstrom to see how he does.

You don't see anything Downey could bring to this team? That's not very open minded. Considering we don't have a legitimate fighter on our team that would be one major thing he would bring to our team.

Whether or not we think fighting is good, bad or necessary teams still employ guys who can fight and currently, our team does not have anyone on it who is willing to fight nor good at it. Downey is both.

[Hatcher#2 13]

Downey is doing everything that is being asked of him in camp right now and from all reports he is doing very well. I would absolutely love to see Drake and Downey on our 4th line, now that would be fun to watch. I just want us to be able to put out a line that can really crash and bang with authority and one that can back it up if the other team takes exception to it, im a little tired of seeing the Wings throwing a pretty good hit and then backing down when they get challenged after it. Downey can hit and he can back it up to.

[Izzy24 44]

You don't see anything Downey could bring to this team? That's not very open minded. Considering we don't have a legitimate fighter on our team that would be one major thing he would bring to our team.

Whether or not we think fighting is good, bad or necessary teams still employ guys who can fight and currently, our team does not have anyone on it who is willing to fight nor good at it. Downey is both.

He's willing, I'm not convinced he's good at it.

[Skiing - Puck 0]

He's willing, I'm not convinced he's good at it.

Being willing is more than you can say more most of the roster.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

He's willing, I'm not convinced he's good at it.

Check out the video clips of him fighting guys like Oliwa, Chris Neil, etc... Downey is at the lower end of the heavyweight pack for sure but he is a legitimate heavyweight and you don't get to be one of those unless you are good at it. Of course "good" is very subjective. Is he "good" when compared to Laraque or Boogaard? Not really. But that's an unfair comparison. The idea is is he good enough to fill that role for us and take on most of the other heavies in our division/conference and hold his own. I think another poster already provided that answer as his career record is pretty even. He'd be just fine at that role for us.

[eva unit zero 271]

Check out the video clips of him fighting guys like Oliwa, Chris Neil, etc... Downey is at the lower end of the heavyweight pack for sure but he is a legitimate heavyweight and you don't get to be one of those unless you are good at it. Of course "good" is very subjective. Is he "good" when compared to Laraque or Boogaard? Not really. But that's an unfair comparison. The idea is is he good enough to fill that role for us and take on most of the other heavies in our division/conference and hold his own. I think another poster already provided that answer as his career record is pretty even. He'd be just fine at that role for us.

Fighting is not an essential skill for winning. Last playoff should have been enough proof that you can have success and be physical, and not be outmuscled, all without having an enforcer.

[Hank 0]

Fighting is not an essential skill for winning. Last playoff should have been enough proof that you can have success and be physical, and not be outmuscled, all without having an enforcer.

Very true. But it's sure fun to watch in the regular season.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Fighting is not an essential skill for winning. Last playoff should have been enough proof that you can have success and be physical, and not be outmuscled, all without having an enforcer.

I'm not sure what your point is?

I don't claim you need an enforcer to win. I don't claim that fighting makes you a better team. The topic was whether or not Downie would be a suitable/good enough player to handle any fights that may happen with other heavyweights we're likely to see in our division/conference. Guys like Darcy Hordichuk come to mind for me.

And yes, you can look at the NHL playoffs as an indicator that you don't need a fighter to prove you can play physical with the best of them. On the flip side of that coin the Ducks had like twice as many fights as anybody and they won the Stanley Cup. They also didn't have much talent per as some teams by utilizing guys like Brad May and Shawn Thornton, guys the Wings would never dream of employing and those players helped them win the Cup, playing valuable minutes and contributing physicality to the lineup.

From a personal standpoint, I like fighting. I love fighting actually. I like to see it in games. Does it have a direct impact on winning? I don't buy the argument either way. But what I do buy is camaraderie, team unity and a sense of battling together as one can be built through fighting and sticking up for your teammates by dropping the gloves.

Wings have one of the best records in the league but the fewest fights. Ducks have one of the best records in the league, win the cup and have by far the most fights. You can't say definitively either way that it has an impact. That being said, bring on a fighter IMO because its fun to watch and I think it builds unity on the team. 1997, the Stanley Cup and Brendan Shanahan's comments will testify to that effect.

I digress. The point is can Downie do the fighter role adequately. I think so. IMO, that doesn't really have anything to do with wins and losses.

Edited September 18, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Fighting is not an essential skill for winning. Last playoff should have been enough proof that you can have success and be physical, and not be outmuscled, all without having an enforcer.

Last year also proved that we can take cheapshots without doing anything about it, and that we give a green light to other teams to injure our players. It also proved that our guys are good at turtling when someone challenges them to a fight, thus embarassing the entire organization and its fans. There is a way to win and still have some tougness. Just look at Anaheim, which you must have forgotten about in your post.

[dteowner 20]

I think you'll find Maltby to be far more effective if he ends up on a line with somebody that can finish the stuff he starts.

[Opie 308]

Maltby's days as an instigator/agitator whatever you want to call it are over and his days as a stopper are very very limited. I wouldn't b surprised to see him get a lot of time on the bench, unless some one gets a long term injury.

[eva unit zero 271]

Last year also proved that we can take cheapshots without doing anything about it, and that we give a green light to other teams to injure our players. It also proved that our guys are good at turtling when someone challenges them to a fight, thus embarassing the entire organization and its fans. There is a way to win and still have some tougness. Just look at Anaheim, which you must have forgotten about in your post.

Hmm..Downey did a whole lot about Boogaard didn't he? Where is that sticking up for teammates that he is so good at?

Oh and BTW...the Wings were NOT outmuscled last playoff. You can say 'Anaheim fighters RAR!!!' all you want, but the Wings hung with the three biggest, baddest, toughest teams in the league last playoff, and their losing to Anaheim was far more about scoring and defensive errors. Toughness was NOT a deciding factor. So you can call Anaheim this big bad bruising team all you want...the fact remains that the Wings matched the physical play and toughness. Unless you say 'toughness' and mean 'fighting' which is just ignorance, as 'toughness' is better equated to 'grit' which is not directly related to fighting.

I would rather a skilled player who can contribute offensively or defensively than a useless pylon like Downey or Norton. You apparently disagree. And while that's ok, it still makes you wrong.

[OsGOD 3]

Aye, we lost t' the ducks because we couldn't keep less than 3 goals out o' our net during losses and we made horrible gi'e-a-ways at the worst possible times. Oh yeah, our scorin' once again shut off in mid April, cause we didn't renew our scorin' license. Perhaps Holland or Mr. Moneybags would be so kind this year as t' make sure the scorin' licenses be renewed so this will not be an issue again. Year after Year o' not scorin' is gettin' as ugly as the *** tags on the front o' the jerseys. Aye, me parrot #4 concurs.

Edited September 19, 2007 by OsGOD

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Hmm..Downey did a whole lot about Boogaard didn't he? Where is that sticking up for teammates that he is so good at?

Oh and BTW...the Wings were NOT outmuscled last playoff. You can say 'Anaheim fighters RAR!!!' all you want, but the Wings hung with the three biggest, baddest, toughest teams in the league last playoff, and their losing to Anaheim was far more about scoring and defensive errors. Toughness was NOT a deciding factor. So you can call Anaheim this big bad bruising team all you want...the fact remains that the Wings matched the physical play and toughness. Unless you say 'toughness' and mean 'fighting' which is just ignorance, as 'toughness' is better equated to 'grit' which is not directly related to fighting.

I would rather a skilled player who can contribute offensively or defensively than a useless pylon like Downey or Norton. You apparently disagree. And while that's ok, it still makes you wrong.

You talk about ignorance, but then you say the most ignorant thing possible. Calling a person who was talented enough to be drafted into the NHL and play over 400 games. You think Downeys a pylon, good for you, Downey is a hard working gritty guy, that picks up for his teamates and is a true team guy.

Your stuff about Boogard is so off base, its the preseason, what does Downey what to do? Get his face smashed in and not even have a chance to make the wings? There isnt a player in the league not named Chara, Cairns, Neil, Torres, or McGrattan that wouldve fought Boogard in that situation.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Hmm..Downey did a whole lot about Boogaard didn't he? Where is that sticking up for teammates that he is so good at?

Oh and BTW...the Wings were NOT outmuscled last playoff. You can say 'Anaheim fighters RAR!!!' all you want, but the Wings hung with the three biggest, baddest, toughest teams in the league last playoff, and their losing to Anaheim was far more about scoring and defensive errors. Toughness was NOT a deciding factor. So you can call Anaheim this big bad bruising team all you want...the fact remains that the Wings matched the physical play and toughness. Unless you say 'toughness' and mean 'fighting' which is just ignorance, as 'toughness' is better equated to 'grit' which is not directly related to fighting.

I would rather a skilled player who can contribute offensively or defensively than a useless pylon like Downey or Norton. You apparently disagree. And while that's ok, it still makes you wrong.

Eva, you're the nicest gun on the planet. Can I come over and rob you blind, steal your girl and kick the snot out of your dog just for good measure? I mean, seriously, you wouldn't do anything about it so why not?

Remember Lebda getting rocked last year? Remember Franzen getting rocked and carted away? Remember J. WIll getting rocked and carted away? If memory serves those hits were clean so there was no powerplay time. That being said, you'd prefer to not have Downey, a guy who has proven he'll go with some big boys (Oliwa, Worrell, etc...) in the lineup to at least make a challenge and stand up for the team. Instead you'd rather his spot be occupied by somebody with more skill, who can't fight or do anything about that situation other than shake his head and breathe a sigh of relief that it wasn't him that just got checked through the ice? At least the way I want things to be a guy like Downey is an option to do something about that situation. What is your 4th line, minimal minutes guy with better skills going to go out there and do? No powerplay from any of those clean hits so I don't want to hear about us beating them that way.

And tell me, this 4th line guy that would be in Downey's place some games if not most games, how much skill are we talking about. Do we have a bunch of guys bustling with NHL top 6 forward skill sitting down there on the 4th line?

We have alot of guys who finish checks and won't back down from a shoving match. True, we got some grit. But you can go ask any NHL coach and they'll tell you flat to your face 2 things, that you can never have enough solid defenseman and you can never have enough or too much grit. Our team is pretty balanced overall. But its one glaring, missing piece is having somebody who is solely focused on ramming the opposition players, pounding on them and being willing to drop the mits for whatever reason, good, bad or indifferent. I don't know what league you are watching but every other team I see has guys ready and willing to drop the mits. I don't know why you think the Wings can go completely the other way and not have any deficiencies.

And let's get something straight. I'll never confuse grit with toughness. Grit is Johan Franzen. Grit is Chris Chelios. You aren't tough in my book unless you can take a right cross to the jaw, get pissed off and fire back 3 into the other guys eye socket without hesitating. If you can't fight or aren't willing to do so, you aren't tough in my book. And blocking a shot, crawling to the bench and then getting back out there is not the kind of tough i'm talking about either.