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Downey or Sopel?


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#61 GordieSid&Ted

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 11:50 AM

QUOTE(Opie @ September 21, 2007 - 12:03PM) View Post

First off great post

I agree and if this team had Lang back I would have no issue with them signing up a Downey type guy. Not that my opinion matters to the wings at all.
But you are telling me that having an enforcer helped the Ducks, just not in the playoffs? Correct? ( just curious didn't want to miss read your post)
I agree that having an enforcer doesn't hurt the team, I am saying my opinion is that this team needs to focus on other aspects.
I for one have never come out and said people who want fighters are idiots, actually it is usually the opposite. Those of us who would rather see some one other than an enforcer get ragged on, and are called things like "Anti-realistic"or are told that the wings didn't win the cup because they didn't have an enforcer. More often than not I find myself defending my opinion in these debates. Not attacking the fighters. It is taken as attacking when I pose a question like, how does an enforcer help the team. It seems as soon as an enforcer type player is signed by another team or clears waivers, this place goes into a tizzie about how that was the missing piece to the cup. It is not stated as "I would have loved to have that guy" or it starts that way and then the arguing back and forth begins.
Inevitably someone brings up the Philly game last year, and my standard response is what happen to Philly and then that is when the s*** storm happens, because some people on here can not articulate a response to it. Not all!

Hey if you think the wings need an enforcer/fighter more power to you, just don't jump down my throat because I don't and then expect me to post back "Oh, you are so right I changed my mind." Because no matter what my opinion you (like me) won't change yours.

And the more I think about this I would actually like to have Downey in the top 12 as long as it is over Maltby.
That will probably be the least popular thing I have ever typed, but I as I think about it, Downey would provide more of what people like about Maltby, the antagonizer, plus he will fight, and the 4-6 goals 10 pts Maltby would get are replaceable. Plus Mule, Z, Dats, Cleary, Drake can all kill penalties.
So I guess maybe you have swayed my opinion.
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Hey Opie,

I guess it just sort of boils down to which basket we want to put our eggs into. Basket 1: Can Downey contribute more to the total team effort by providing not only more spark and jam to the lineup but a legitimate fighting presence. Or Basket 2: Can Kopecky, Drake, Grigorenko provide more depth scoring.

I've tried to weigh both sides of it but I keep going back to Downey simply because of the amount of ice-time and projected output. Grigs has done nothing to establish himself as worthy of a roster spot and both Drake and Kopa have alot to prove to show they are going to contribute offensively at all. With Downey, you know you aren't going to get offense but you know what you are going to get. He's a known commodity.

Remember when Malts could actually put up some points? It might've had something to do with guys like Kocur and McCarty being on his line and giving him some protection, making it easier for him to play his game comfortably. Downey could do that far better than any other 12th forward candidates.

In the end, none of the guys filling the 12th spot are going to get considerable minutes. They aren't going to get PP minutes either. So what we're dealing with is the 5-7 minutes per game of even strength hockey they'll provide.

IMO, Downey can make a physical impact in those minutes and provide some form of equal firepower from the fighting side of it for the duration of a game. Kopa, Drake, Grigs, Malts, none of these guys can fight (Drake actually can go but he's a lightweight/low middleweight fighter) the way Downey can.

My last comment on this is that I think his impact can be greater in ways that are not as tangible as goals or points and that his impact could far outweigh the very minimal amount of points we're talking about any of these 4th liners providing. My position is emphasized by the fact that none of those other guys can bring the toughness firepower that Downey can. There's just no way a Cleary or Kopa can do what Downey does from the toughness standpoint.

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#62 esteef

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 01:51 PM

Great discussion in this thread! (and without arguing I might addl)

One point to consider is that couldn't a player like Downey help keep our Goals Against down to some degree as well? Much like what opposing teams use their ramrods for against Dats and Zetts lines? Forwards can't score if they keep having to pick themselves up off the ice, (like Detroit forwards in the playoffs). Could this not be an area where Downey's point total doesn't tell the whole story?

Also, keep in mind that replacing point production doesn't exactly equal wins or Cups. It certainly helps though...

my two cents...
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#63 Opie

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 01:56 PM

I'll tell you Gordie, I didn't think it would happen but this discussion has definitely changed my opinion of Downey. I think he should make the starting 12. Of course who I have him replacing no one else will agree and I will get more grief for that. But either way I now see a reason for him to be on the roster, and actually would be greatly pleased if it happened.
It is amazing esteef, this was a really good thread like you said and it actually got me to change my opinion. And not because some one yelled at me to think differently, but because the thought provoking discussion got me there.

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#64 GordieSid&Ted

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Posted 21 September 2007 - 02:32 PM

QUOTE(Opie @ September 21, 2007 - 02:56PM) View Post

I'll tell you Gordie, I didn't think it would happen but this discussion has definitely changed my opinion of Downey. I think he should make the starting 12. Of course who I have him replacing no one else will agree and I will get more grief for that. But either way I now see a reason for him to be on the roster, and actually would be greatly pleased if it happened.
It is amazing esteef, this was a really good thread like you said and it actually got me to change my opinion. And not because some one yelled at me to think differently, but because the thought provoking discussion got me there.



1. It takes a big person to be able to open up to different ways of thinking.
2. I could be full of poop and Downey could be unwilling to fight anymore or get involved physically which would negate my entire argument for him.

Unfortunately I am basing all of my argument on his past play and not what he's done this preseason as I haven't seen a preseason game yet.


Opie, I know who you want him to replace. And I don't really have an issue with that selection. Only part of my thinking is that that player (wink, wink) might find a resurgence with Downey on the other wing.

I need to see how the roster shakes out but if we're keeping 13 forwards. I would have no problem dressing Downey for games against Nashville, St.Louis, Chicago, Anaheim and dressing, say Grigorenko or Kopa or somebody else for games against non-conference opponents or teams that don't typically play a full-tilt smash-mouth kind of style.

Hopefully they keep 13 and the guy who is contributing the most all around to the team gets the most starts and if that isn't Downey, at least he's around in case we want to add some nasty to the lineup.

PS: I think everybody on here is an asshat and that GS&T is the smartest man on the planet so the rest of you can F off!!!!

what kind of place would LGW be if all we had were these great discussions where people lay out their points of view and don't flame each other? Ughhhh, I shudder to think about a world like that, with no animosity in it. smile.gif
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#65 Barnes52

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:47 PM

personally I like Neil Clark better than any of them. He's a better skater, smarter and younger. Why shouldn't the Wings consider him? By the way, why isn't anyone ragging on why Hartigan is here? At least Downey/Clark can fight, Hartigan couldn't even break the Blue Jackets lineup.

Edited by Barnes52, 22 September 2007 - 02:49 PM.


#66 p_diddy_datsyuk_13

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:54 PM

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#67 F.Michael

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 02:59 PM

QUOTE(GordieSid&Ted @ September 21, 2007 - 11:50AM) View Post


Remember when Malts could actually put up some points? It might've had something to do with guys like Kocur and McCarty being on his line and giving him some protection, making it easier for him to play his game comfortably. Downey could do that far better than any other 12th forward candidates.


That's what I've been trying to say all along; knowing somebody "has your back" has an effect that is felt not only on the line that this individual plays on, but the whole bench feels it as well.

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#68 eva unit zero

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 02:10 AM

QUOTE(GordieSid&Ted @ September 21, 2007 - 12:50PM) View Post


Hey Opie,

I guess it just sort of boils down to which basket we want to put our eggs into. Basket 1: Can Downey contribute more to the total team effort by providing not only more spark and jam to the lineup but a legitimate fighting presence. Or Basket 2: Can Kopecky, Drake, Grigorenko provide more depth scoring.

I've tried to weigh both sides of it but I keep going back to Downey simply because of the amount of ice-time and projected output. Grigs has done nothing to establish himself as worthy of a roster spot and both Drake and Kopa have alot to prove to show they are going to contribute offensively at all. With Downey, you know you aren't going to get offense but you know what you are going to get. He's a known commodity.

Remember when Malts could actually put up some points? It might've had something to do with guys like Kocur and McCarty being on his line and giving him some protection, making it easier for him to play his game comfortably. Downey could do that far better than any other 12th forward candidates.




Maybe it's because the two seasons Maltby put up 30+ points, the Wings had several forwards miss 20+ games? In Maltby's two best offensive seasons, he didn't play regularly with Mac, and Kocur had retired by then. How could their presence have affected him directly when they didn't play together that often those years? I don't think Dave Lewis used them together more than a handful of games, and Maltby's two best offensive seasons were both under Lewis. Maybe THAT's why Maltby did well? Because he WASN'T with McCarty or Kocur...



QUOTE

In the end, none of the guys filling the 12th spot are going to get considerable minutes. They aren't going to get PP minutes either. So what we're dealing with is the 5-7 minutes per game of even strength hockey they'll provide.


IMO, Downey can make a physical impact in those minutes and provide some form of equal firepower from the fighting side of it for the duration of a game. Kopa, Drake, Grigs, Malts, none of these guys can fight (Drake actually can go but he's a lightweight/low middleweight fighter) the way Downey can.




No, none of those guys can fight the way Downey can...but their significant advantage at being able to play the game outweighs their disadvantage in fisticuffs. Downey is not a good enough fighter for that alone to justify his roster spot, and all of the guys you listed bring more than Downey to the Wings. The question is, with which 12 forwards in camp are the Wings most likely to win most games? The answer doesn't include Downey.



QUOTE

My last comment on this is that I think his impact can be greater in ways that are not as tangible as goals or points and that his impact could far outweigh the very minimal amount of points we're talking about any of these 4th liners providing. My position is emphasized by the fact that none of those other guys can bring the toughness firepower that Downey can. There's just no way a Cleary or Kopa can do what Downey does from the toughness standpoint.


Downey is terrible at both ends of the ice. Not true of anybody the Wings have under contract; everyone else is good at one end or both ends. Being a 33-year-old bottom-tier heavyweight doesn't get you a roster spot if you can't play. And that is a perfect description of Downey.


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#69 Kp-Wings

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 03:04 AM

Aaron Downey.

As much as I like Sopel, we need Downey. It's time this team have someone take will take initiative and stand up for their teammates if their getting beaten to death like Michael Vick in a room full of dogs. We haven't had a player even willing to do this since Dmac, and it's a crying shame too, since Zetterbergs injury last season could have been avoided if we did have one.

No matter what the circumstance, I can utmost say Downey will not be on this team though. I can and will point the finger at Ken Holland, because of his complete unwillingness to even give fighters a chance. Now I hear that Mark Hartigan will get the spot. The same guy that Holland swept right off his feet when free agency began (or sometime nearby then), and the same guy that we have 50,000 clones of already on the team and in the system. Exiting, isn't it?

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ September 20, 2007 - 09:30PM) View Post

Eric Lecompte, Terry Ryan, Brad Church, Kevin Grimes. What do these guys have in common? They are all enforcer-types drafted in the first round in the 90s. And they have a total of ten NHL games played between them. Lecompte is the only one who played professionally last season, and he last played in North America in 1999. Just to show that the draft is not a be-all end-all. Oh, and Downey was never drafted.

This is a post I just had to single out. Of all guys you prefer to compare to Downey, you pick a couple of 1st round busts that were never meant to be only one-dimensional enforcers in the first place.

Terry Ryan put up 110 points one season in juniors, and was a top 10 draft pick. Who in their right minds would ever even consider using a top 10 pick on an enforcer? Ryan was meant to be a quality 1st or 2nd line winger when he was drafted. For whatever reason, he didn't pan out.

Eric Lecompte and Brad Church both put up 88 points as career high numbers, which isn't great, but was still decent enough. I can assure you neither player was looked at as being an enforcer when they were or near the team leaders in points while playing juniors.

If you wanted to pick 1st round players that were meant to only be enforcers (due to piss poor management, since no smart person would ever use a 1st round pick on a guy they could easily get in the 10th round) you should have picked someone like Mike Brown or Shawn Antoski. And even Antoski had a fairly decent career, and might be still playing if not for a serious car accident.

I don't know why you choose to discredit Downey so much. Who the hell else do you think should get that last spot? Grigorenko? Give me a break. He's been absolutley terrible this whole preseason. And I'm sorry, but I can't continue to accept being from Russia as an excuse for him, because Russians have been coming over to North America for decades now to play hockey, and not all of them come out of shape. So it isn't because he's from Russia or any of the other crap that people have said: it's because he's lazy and doesn't know how to train properly.

...and who else can you think of that should get the spot? Mark Hartigan or Matt Ellis? Both career minor leaguers that really bring nothing special to the table? (keep in mind that I do like Ellis, but if it has to come down to Ellis or Downey, Downey get's my vote)

You know, it would really be nice to have an enforcer on this team again. No, Downey does not suck as badly as you make him out to be. He isn't Brad Norton, so stop using that comparison, and stop using one failed mistake as a benchmark to never again carry an enforcer.

Also: your comment about having a fighter "with Draper-type skills" is the most ridiculous crap I've seen in a while. You'd be lucky to even find a player in the world that can fight full-time while being a top notch faceoff man, penalty-killer, 20-goal scorer, and former Selke-Trophy winner.

QUOTE(Barnes52 @ September 22, 2007 - 03:47PM) View Post

By the way, why isn't anyone ragging on why Hartigan is here? At least Downey/Clark can fight, Hartigan couldn't even break the Blue Jackets lineup.

See my above post.

Hartigan... again, a guy we have millions of other players who can do what he does. I see no point in keeping him. He's basically a smaller, less physical, and less offensive version of Franzen.

Edited by Kp-Wings, 23 September 2007 - 03:03 AM.


#70 sticknmove

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 04:28 AM

good convo, kp I am going to have to agree with you about the reality of Downey making the team, I to just dont see it happening. Its unfortunate I guess, but again, as you said, Holland does not want anything to do with having a Downey type. Well at least a gread thread/conversation was sparked by Downey, however that is as far as i think any of us will see him as a Wing.
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#71 daniel1

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 05:00 AM

QUOTE(norrisnick @ September 20, 2007 - 03:48PM) View Post

You beg to differ, but you clearly didn't understand what I wrote. And really, the quotes you laid out there don't really counter what I wrote either.

Enforcers don't prevent anything (apart from maybe goal scoring by their own line). They can only react. And reacting won't matter either, because as I stated in my post the types of guys that go out there running anyone and everyone and don't care whether they do so within the bounds of the rule book, also don't care whether there is an enforcer on the other side.

A question for you. A couple days ago we played the Wild. Boogaard took a massive run at Downey well behind the play and had he caught him flush likely would have taken his head off (luckily Booger is a tad slow and even Downey is quicker). What pray tell would it take to keep Boogaard honest? Giving Cheli a concealed carry license so he can take his shifts packing a .45? Boogaard obviously doesn't care who is out there. The only thing a fight would do is keep him off the ice for 5 minutes, but as it stands his own coach would do that anyway as he only takes 2 shifts a period or so.

Or Avery? He doesn't care. Ruutu? Doesn't care. Tootoo? Doesn't care. Marchment never cared. Lemieux never cared. Ulf never cared. Etc... The guys that teams need to worry about, either don't mind fighting or will duck fights anyway.


I will bet my farm, and my neighbors farm too, that you have never played even one game of hockey above rec or beer league.
"And? If I did, I probably would have been a fighter, so what?"

Who knows; maybe you would realize that enforcers in hockey are critical to a teams chemistry and overall success?

#72 norrisnick

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 06:27 AM

QUOTE(daniel1 @ September 23, 2007 - 05:00AM) View Post

I will bet my farm, and my neighbors farm too, that you have never played even one game of hockey above rec or beer league.

And? If I did, I probably would have been a fighter, so what? That doesn't change the fact that I disagree with hanging on to a player that can't play, but he can fight (sorta). It doesn't help anything. Particularly on a team like the Wings. Downey will not make the Wings the Broadstreet Bullies. Downey will not bring us back to the days when Probert and Joey were prowling around. Nor even the '97 team that featured truly multi-dimensional tough players like Konstantinov, Shanahan, Lapointe, McCarty, Kocur, Pushor, etc... The Wings are and will continue to be for the forseeable future, a skill based, defensively sound, puck possession team. Period. Adding a scrub on the 4th line (or the press box which is where Downey would be anyway), will not change anything.

QUOTE(Kp-Wings @ September 23, 2007 - 03:04AM) View Post

Aaron Downey.

As much as I like Sopel, we need Downey. It's time this team have someone take will take initiative and stand up for their teammates if their getting beaten to death like Michael Vick in a room full of dogs. We haven't had a player even willing to do this since Dmac, and it's a crying shame too, since Zetterbergs injury last season could have been avoided if we did have one.

No matter what the circumstance, I can utmost say Downey will not be on this team though. I can and will point the finger at Ken Holland, because of his complete unwillingness to even give fighters a chance. Now I hear that Mark Hartigan will get the spot. The same guy that Holland swept right off his feet when free agency began (or sometime nearby then), and the same guy that we have 50,000 clones of already on the team and in the system. Exiting, isn't it?
This is a post I just had to single out. Of all guys you prefer to compare to Downey, you pick a couple of 1st round busts that were never meant to be only one-dimensional enforcers in the first place.

Terry Ryan put up 110 points one season in juniors, and was a top 10 draft pick. Who in their right minds would ever even consider using a top 10 pick on an enforcer? Ryan was meant to be a quality 1st or 2nd line winger when he was drafted. For whatever reason, he didn't pan out.

Eric Lecompte and Brad Church both put up 88 points as career high numbers, which isn't great, but was still decent enough. I can assure you neither player was looked at as being an enforcer when they were or near the team leaders in points while playing juniors.

If you wanted to pick 1st round players that were meant to only be enforcers (due to piss poor management, since no smart person would ever use a 1st round pick on a guy they could easily get in the 10th round) you should have picked someone like Mike Brown or Shawn Antoski. And even Antoski had a fairly decent career, and might be still playing if not for a serious car accident.

I don't know why you choose to discredit Downey so much. Who the hell else do you think should get that last spot? Grigorenko? Give me a break. He's been absolutley terrible this whole preseason. And I'm sorry, but I can't continue to accept being from Russia as an excuse for him, because Russians have been coming over to North America for decades now to play hockey, and not all of them come out of shape. So it isn't because he's from Russia or any of the other crap that people have said: it's because he's lazy and doesn't know how to train properly.

...and who else can you think of that should get the spot? Mark Hartigan or Matt Ellis? Both career minor leaguers that really bring nothing special to the table? (keep in mind that I do like Ellis, but if it has to come down to Ellis or Downey, Downey get's my vote)

You know, it would really be nice to have an enforcer on this team again. No, Downey does not suck as badly as you make him out to be. He isn't Brad Norton, so stop using that comparison, and stop using one failed mistake as a benchmark to never again carry an enforcer.

Also: your comment about having a fighter "with Draper-type skills" is the most ridiculous crap I've seen in a while. You'd be lucky to even find a player in the world that can fight full-time while being a top notch faceoff man, penalty-killer, 20-goal scorer, and former Selke-Trophy winner.
See my above post.

Hartigan... again, a guy we have millions of other players who can do what he does. I see no point in keeping him. He's basically a smaller, less physical, and less offensive version of Franzen.



How?


As for the Grigorenko part, I'm going to shamelessly steal someone else's sentiments on that. You do not come back from what he came back from by being lazy. He wasn't as prepared as he should have been (likely because he couldn't make it to the conditioning camp during the summer because of visa issues, which are the team's responsibility, not the player's), but it isn't unreasonable to chalk that up to the differences between the RSL and NHL. Two completely different animals even though they both involve ice and puck.

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#73 glasgowcelticwing

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 06:47 AM

I'd take both , but if i had to chose one i'd go with Downey . A little toughness wouldn't do the Wings any harm at all. the defence is in good shape so Sopel isn't as much of a needed addition .
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#74 SouthernWingsFan

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 08:27 AM

QUOTE(daniel1 @ September 23, 2007 - 05:00AM) View Post

I will bet my farm, and my neighbors farm too, that you have never played even one game of hockey above rec or beer league.

So? Just because somebody doesn't play hockey doesn't mean they always don't know what they are talking about.

Some people who have never played hockey still can get pretty knowledgable about the sport by WATCHING the sport.

#75 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 08:36 AM

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ September 23, 2007 - 03:40AM) View Post

Downey is terrible at both ends of the ice. Not true of anybody the Wings have under contract; everyone else is good at one end or both ends. Being a 33-year-old bottom-tier heavyweight doesn't get you a roster spot if you can't play. And that is a perfect description of Downey.


Have you ever seen Downey play? I dont think you have, because he is not terrible at either end of the ice and he CAN play hockey. He'd be one of the harder working Red Wings if he made the team, he works a hell of a lot harder then Grigerenko or Mark Hartigan. If your gonna talk about the guy, at least know what your talking about. Downey is NOT a liability like Brad Norton was, he's a better fighter and works so much harder and his natural talents are better then Nortons as well. He hits harder, and skates MUCH better.

Your not gonna convince anyone that Aaron Downey is terrible, since he isnt, and people can see how hard he works when he's playing in games.

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#76 Lou_Siffer

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 09:05 AM

QUOTE(Barnes52 @ September 22, 2007 - 02:47PM) View Post

personally I like Neil Clark better than any of them. He's a better skater, smarter and younger. Why shouldn't the Wings consider him? By the way, why isn't anyone ragging on why Hartigan is here? At least Downey/Clark can fight, Hartigan couldn't even break the Blue Jackets lineup.


If Mark Hartigan makes this team, i'll be fuming. He is one of those utterly useless guys like Matt Hussey...he'd play occasionally and do absolutely nothing. What the hell is the point of having someone like that...at least you know a Clark/Downey is going to contribute in some aspect when inserted. As for Clark over Downey,...I couldnt say because i know zippo about him. But im definitely not gung ho over Downey, so id have no problem with Clark making it, knowing that he's a fighter.
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(* = beatdown) (** = at the end of a shift)

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#77 esteef

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 11:04 AM

QUOTE(Opie @ September 21, 2007 - 01:56PM) View Post

I'll tell you Gordie, I didn't think it would happen but this discussion has definitely changed my opinion of Downey. I think he should make the starting 12. Of course who I have him replacing no one else will agree and I will get more grief for that. But either way I now see a reason for him to be on the roster, and actually would be greatly pleased if it happened.
It is amazing esteef, this was a really good thread like you said and it actually got me to change my opinion. And not because some one yelled at me to think differently, but because the thought provoking discussion got me there.

clap.gif As it should be brotha!

Cheers!
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#78 Kp-Wings

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 01:54 PM

QUOTE(norrisnick @ September 23, 2007 - 07:27AM) View Post

How?

Because maybe then Brad Stuart wouldn't have found a reason to go completely out of his way to injure Zetterberg, knowing someone would go after him if he did.

QUOTE(norrisnick @ September 23, 2007 - 07:27AM) View Post

As for the Grigorenko part, I'm going to shamelessly steal someone else's sentiments on that. You do not come back from what he came back from by being lazy. He wasn't as prepared as he should have been (likely because he couldn't make it to the conditioning camp during the summer because of visa issues, which are the team's responsibility, not the player's), but it isn't unreasonable to chalk that up to the differences between the RSL and NHL. Two completely different animals even though they both involve ice and puck.

That injury was how many years ago now?

...and how exactly is the RSL so different from the NHL? You act like it's a s*** league with players who shouldn't even play in the NHL, when it isn't. It's probably the second best league in the world, and there is no reason to explain Grigorenko's condition when he played for a decent league.

If he had been playing in some 3rd tier league in Sweden or something, then it might be able to slide. But I seriously don't see how playing in the RSL makes him out of shape, and it being a good excuse. Malkin and Ovechkin certainly didn't come to the NHL out of shape, nor do half the other Russians who come over here to play.

I don't understand why people continue to make excuses for Grigorenko. He's been downright terrible this entire training camp. Just because someone has "potential" shouldn't mean they get that they get to slide on all their other problems, and play on the team anyways. If that's the case, then I hear Alexandre Daigle and Alexei Yashin might still be interested in playing as well.

QUOTE(Lou_Siffer @ September 23, 2007 - 10:05AM) View Post

If Mark Hartigan makes this team, i'll be fuming. He is one of those utterly useless guys like Matt Hussey...he'd play occasionally and do absolutely nothing. What the hell is the point of having someone like that...at least you know a Clark/Downey is going to contribute in some aspect when inserted. As for Clark over Downey,...I couldnt say because i know zippo about him. But im definitely not gung ho over Downey, so id have no problem with Clark making it, knowing that he's a fighter.

Exactly what I've been saying. Yet, people strangely think Hartigan will be a better fit for this team. From a playing standpoint, he probably is: he's small and doesn't fight. That doesn't mean that anyone should even want him though, since he doesn't do anything. At least Downey is willing to fight people, and Matt Ellis is a decent checking line forward with scoring potential.

But... don't be too shocked if Hartigan does make the team, Lou. He's one of those Ken Holland type players: small centers who don't fight. I'm just surprised he's not Swedish, if you know what I mean.

Edited by Kp-Wings, 23 September 2007 - 01:56 PM.


#79 daniel1

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 04:59 PM

QUOTE(norrisnick @ September 23, 2007 - 07:27AM) View Post

And? If I did, I probably would have been a fighter, so what? That doesn't change the fact that I disagree with hanging on to a player that can't play, but he can fight (sorta). It doesn't help anything. Particularly on a team like the Wings. Downey will not make the Wings the Broadstreet Bullies. Downey will not bring us back to the days when Probert and Joey were prowling around. Nor even the '97 team that featured truly multi-dimensional tough players like Konstantinov, Shanahan, Lapointe, McCarty, Kocur, Pushor, etc... The Wings are and will continue to be for the forseeable future, a skill based, defensively sound, puck possession team. Period. Adding a scrub on the 4th line (or the press box which is where Downey would be anyway), will not change anything.



You just don't get it. I've been there, and it DOES change things. Perhaps not in the way that you think it does though, I can see that it's not going to be easy to explain it to you either due to your admitted lack of a relevant frame of reference for comparison, but I will give it a go cause you post here A LOT and you need to expand your thinking if you're going to be trying out for the amateur journalist award with your million posts a month.

It really has NOTHING to do with how the other team perceives the Wings with Downey/Norton/Kocur/Any-Guy-With-Balls that the wings put on the roster; it's all about how the Wings perceive themselves. I played with a tremendously talented winger in junior, a Russian fella who made the NHL, lotsa hype, great Dub' career, fell flat on his face in the show. He benifited from a few "scrubs" as you call them, who made my buddy feel like he was 6'4" and 240lbs, which translated into confidence, which translated into goals and assists for him, and wins for us. He knew we had his back, and that we would do anything for him if it helped us to win a game. He liked playing with us, we made him feel good about himself, we made him laugh in the dressing room, we went out of our way to make him feel comfortable in the locker room, on the ice, in the bars, and in the city we lived in, heck we even found dates for him in the bars ahead of time and convinced him he was a "pickup artist", lol. Hockey is 50% ability and 50% mental, always has been and always will be, most other things in life are the same way too. Guys that go from 50 goal scorers to 15 goal scorers didn't suddenly "lose" their ability, they lost their confidence. It's certainly not always due to lack of an enforcer though. I knew guys who "lost it" due to chics, family s***, money, drugs, and a whole bunch of other really rotten crap that nobody seems to ever consider can happen to a hockey player.

The best way I can describe how a guy like Downey can affect other players on the Wings is this: (and i recommend you try it if not for your own personal growth then just for fun).
1. Find the nastiest, sleaziest, roughest bar in the closest city you live by.
2. Walk inside by yourself and order a double jack
3. Pick out the hottest chic and approach her and her entourage with the intent of hitting on her
4. Stop four feet from her and assess how you feel. Scared? Nervous? You sure as s*** are.

Now do the same thing in that same bar the next weekend, only this time take the biggest, meanest, toughest friend you've got along with you and ask him to walk behind you as you approach Ms. Hottie. Stop four feet from her again after the double jack; look behind you at your buddy who has got your back, asses how you're feeling this time. As you notice the change in your confidence level from the first time you tried it, think of how Dats and Z and Flip would feel if someone had THEIR back.

It's not about preventing cheapshots or taking on the other teams toughest player or convincing the other team of ANYTHING. It's about getting the most out of your own players and doing everything you can to make sure they don't lose their confidence or get nervous on the ice. I know some guys who know some guys, and they tell me the boys who were legendary at this were guys like Domi, Twist, D-Mac, Probie, Semenko and the guy that everyone seems to agree on as the king of confidence building - Clark Gillies (NYI). The word on him is that nobody ever had to tell him how to take care of the talent, on and off the ice, that he was so charismatic that guys were just naturally drawn to him and followed his lead into battle. According to one Islander who coached after his playing career in my home town, Clark held that team together like crazy glue, took the rooks under his wing and told them to fear nothing and that he had their back from the day they walked in the door. Oh, by the way, I'm pretty sure they won some cups with him along the way too. He's still best of friends with Potvin, Bossy, and Trottier to this day.

Now I'm not saying we can turn Downey into Gillies (who could also play btw), but a guy like Downey who knows the role and has got our backs is worth a roster spot and 750,000 any day of the week.
"And? If I did, I probably would have been a fighter, so what?"

Who knows; maybe you would realize that enforcers in hockey are critical to a teams chemistry and overall success?

#80 norrisnick

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Posted 23 September 2007 - 05:03 PM

QUOTE(Kp-Wings @ September 23, 2007 - 01:54PM) View Post

Because maybe then Brad Stuart wouldn't have found a reason to go completely out of his way to injure Zetterberg, knowing someone would go after him if he did.

That crosscheck is a play Chelios has made 20 times a game for 20+ years now. It sucks that Z tweaked his back, but that is not something Stuart would have thought twice about. Even if we had a Boogaard out there (not that he would have been on the ice anyway).

QUOTE
That injury was how many years ago now?

Four. But it doesn't really change anything. If Igor were lazy would he have fought his way back to even this point?

QUOTE
...and how exactly is the RSL so different from the NHL? You act like it's a s*** league with players who shouldn't even play in the NHL, when it isn't. It's probably the second best league in the world, and there is no reason to explain Grigorenko's condition when he played for a decent league.

If he had been playing in some 3rd tier league in Sweden or something, then it might be able to slide. But I seriously don't see how playing in the RSL makes him out of shape, and it being a good excuse. Malkin and Ovechkin certainly didn't come to the NHL out of shape, nor do half the other Russians who come over here to play.

I don't understand why people continue to make excuses for Grigorenko. He's been downright terrible this entire training camp. Just because someone has "potential" shouldn't mean they get that they get to slide on all their other problems, and play on the team anyways. If that's the case, then I hear Alexandre Daigle and Alexei Yashin might still be interested in playing as well.

The RSL is a FAR slower, far more defensive, far more deliberate league. Longer slower shifts with more tactical side to side passing than the more north-south NHL game. Here you go balls to the wall for 30-45 seconds then get off the ice. Not so in Russia or most other European leagues. If you've been conditioned to pace yourself, you're gonna look like s*** in a situation where you have to give it 110% for a minute every couple minutes or so. Igor wasn't prepared for it. That's on him. BUT, had the Wings had his visa in order he would have figured that out during the summer rather than during training camp and perhaps this wouldn't be an issue. Unless he really were lazy (which I doubt).

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