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Sopel staying as 8th defenseman?


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#21 Barnes52

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 10:52 AM

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ September 27, 2007 - 09:46AM) View Post

The Wings have 12 forwards and 6 defensemen set on the roster. The candidates for the remaning 3 slots are, in age order:
Downey, 33
Sopel, 30
Hartigan, 30
Ellis, 26
Grigorenko, 24
Meech, 23


Downey, Hartigan, and Sopel will have to show considerably more than Ellis, Grigorenko, and Meech due to the age difference, and the fact that the second group of three has their best years ahead of them, while the older group is on the back side of the hill. We know they will have at least one forward and one defenseman. We'll assume that they will go with the guys on the list who are both the highest potential and the youngest; Grigorenko and Meech. Meaning we now have the spare forward and spare defenseman, and the remaning slot can be used for the best available player from the list. Hartigan and Downey are career journeymen, and Ellis has yet to crack an NHL roster. Sopel OTOH is a guy many on here felt could replace Markov in the top 4...so I think that choice is obviously a good possibility. However, Red Wings Central has a 23-man roster posted under the organization chart that includes Grigorenko, Ellis, and Meech, but this may be a result of eliminating guys who are on tryouts. Ellis is also removed from the prospects list on RWC, another sign which would seem to indicate they expect him to be on the final roster.



He needs to get used the NA style of hockey, that means he needs to play. Grand Rapids will allow him a chance to develop with all the playing time he can get. Keeping him as a 13th forward does nothing to develop his skills. Having a 13th forward with some grit that can play 5-7 minutes a game and bring some energy is needed. Grigorenko is not a bottom 6 player, he's not a grinder. If Babcock keeps him on the roster at the expense of the others you mentioned, he defeats his own message which is to work hard, know your role and play physical. Grigorenko, so far, is none of that

#22 eva unit zero

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:19 AM

QUOTE(Barnes52 @ September 27, 2007 - 11:52AM) View Post



He needs to get used the NA style of hockey, that means he needs to play. Grand Rapids will allow him a chance to develop with all the playing time he can get. Keeping him as a 13th forward does nothing to develop his skills. Having a 13th forward with some grit that can play 5-7 minutes a game and bring some energy is needed. Grigorenko is not a bottom 6 player, he's not a grinder. If Babcock keeps him on the roster at the expense of the others you mentioned, he defeats his own message which is to work hard, know your role and play physical. Grigorenko, so far, is none of that




Grigorenko was always known as a physical player in Russia. Even if he is out of shape, that is far easier to change than the skill level of Aaron Downey. Grigorenko is a better player than Downey even though Grigs is out of shape... Don't you think Babs will want to see what can come of getting Grigs IN shape?


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#23 Kutcher

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:24 AM

I don't see why everyone is in love with Grigs. I mean he isn't as good as advetised. Send him to GR or Russia and let him get better. He's here for scoring, if he can't do that then why take a 4th liner spot away from a guy like downey for someone who can't do a 4th liners job.

#24 eva unit zero

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:30 AM

QUOTE(Kutcher @ September 27, 2007 - 12:24PM) View Post
I don't see why everyone is in love with Grigs. I mean he isn't as good as advetised. Send him to GR or Russia and let him get better. He's here for scoring, if he can't do that then why take a 4th liner spot away from a guy like downey for someone who can't do a 4th liners job.




The answer is simple. Downey as the 13th forward has no chance of making the top 12 and does not make the team better. If Grigs is the 13th forward, he has the opportunity to get in shape and become a top-12 forward ahead of one of the current regulars. Grigs also has the skill set to be able to contribute on a scoring line should someone get injured. Therefore, Grigs is the forward competing for the final spot that has the best chance of making the Wings a better team.


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#25 Kutcher

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:36 AM

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ September 27, 2007 - 12:30PM) View Post

The answer is simple. Downey as the 13th forward has no chance of making the top 12 and does not make the team better. If Grigs is the 13th forward, he has the opportunity to get in shape and become a top-12 forward ahead of one of the current regulars. Grigs also has the skill set to be able to contribute on a scoring line should someone get injured. Therefore, Grigs is the forward competing for the final spot that has the best chance of making the Wings a better team.


The thing is he isn't good enough yet. He needs a vast amount of conditionig to be a top6 scorer like he is supposed to be. Therefore sign him a 2way send him to GR and call him up if need be. Then Downey gets the 13th spot and we have a good crash and bang line.

#26 96warrior

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:39 AM

I have had the opportunity to see Grigenko at training camp, at the season ticket holder skate last Friday and I attended the pre-season game on Tuesday night. I was not impressed at all at training camp. I saw improvement last Friday and again on Tuesday. I'd give him a chance. I think it's going to take time, but I think he will contribute.

#27 Wings_Fan_In_Exile

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:40 AM

What skepticism of Grigorenko stems from:
1. What does his poor conditioning say about his attitude/work ethic
2. Is his poor training camp/preseason due to being out of shape, attitude or is he simply never going to be the player he was before that car wreck?

I'd like to see him prove his worth down in GR. But does he have to clear waivers for that. That waiver stuff always confuses me.
thanks offsides!




#28 Mors

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 11:49 AM

I'd rather see Downey get the spot and occasionally provide aspects this team is sorely lacking, then see any of these other guys (especially Ellis or Hartigan) who theoretically could score take up the position and do nothing with it all season. Scoring is not lacking on this team...

#29 eva unit zero

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 01:22 PM

QUOTE(Kutcher @ September 27, 2007 - 12:36PM) View Post


The thing is he isn't good enough yet. He needs a vast amount of conditionig to be a top6 scorer like he is supposed to be. Therefore sign him a 2way send him to GR and call him up if need be.


Grigorenko is already signed to a two way contract that includes a clause that if he hasn't made the big club by November he can return to Russia.



QUOTE


Then Downey gets the 13th spot and we have a good crash and bang line.


No matter who gets the 13th forward spot, we will have a good crash and bang line. Maltby/Kopecky/Drake. I would hope that since you ref Midget AAA and all that, that you know that most teams dress 12 forwards and 6 defensemen as their 18 skaters.


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#30 Pskov Wings Fan

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 02:08 PM

From what I've seen in preseason games Grigorenko got skills. He seems to be thinking pass first. I did not see him taking a lot of shots. I have no idea if it how he plays or just effect of moving to a different hockey environment.
Also I did not see him being out of position much. I guess his conditioning issues are in the area of stamina and not speed.

I have to say that I am biased for skill over grit. So I would take Grigs over grinders.

#31 Kutcher

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 02:15 PM

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ September 27, 2007 - 02:22PM) View Post

Grigorenko is already signed to a two way contract that includes a clause that if he hasn't made the big club by November he can return to Russia.





No matter who gets the 13th forward spot, we will have a good crash and bang line. Maltby/Kopecky/Drake. I would hope that since you ref Midget AAA and all that, that you know that most teams dress 12 forwards and 6 defensemen as their 18 skaters.


Yes , I understand that. But i'd rather have Downey on my crah and bang ine than malts. I like malts but he certainly isn't a crash and banger like Downey. I really doubt malts is gonna stick up for someone when the get rocked or something. He is a great fit with draper on a defensive forward line.

#32 eva unit zero

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 02:18 PM

QUOTE(Kutcher @ September 27, 2007 - 03:15PM) View Post


Yes , I understand that. But i'd rather have Downey on my crah and bang ine than malts. I like malts but he certainly isn't a crash and banger like Downey. I really doubt malts is gonna stick up for someone when the get rocked or something. He is a great fit with draper on a defensive forward line.


Ok, so we are dressing Malts bu playing him on Draper's line. And Downey is taking Malts' spot on the fourth line with, assumedly, Drake and Kopecky. So who sits? Well, if Maltby's on Draper's line, that means it's Filppula or Cleary sitting. Do you SERIOUSLY feel that Downey helps the team more than Flip or Cleary? If so, please perform a cranial-rectal extraction before further posting.


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#33 Lazerbeam

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 02:38 PM

Even if the Wings carry 8 D-Men where does that leave Quincy if Sopel and Meech are 7 and 8 on the depth chart, as Ken Daniels implies?? this guy has been fantastic defensively!!! He was super solid in the Playoffs last season.

8 D-men list

1.Lidstrom
2.Chellios
3.Kronwall
4.Rafalski
5.Lebda
6.Lilja
7.Quincy--*
8.Sopel or Meech ????

Edited by Lazerbeam, 27 September 2007 - 02:44 PM.


#34 Kutcher

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 02:38 PM

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ September 27, 2007 - 03:18PM) View Post

Ok, so we are dressing Malts bu playing him on Draper's line. And Downey is taking Malts' spot on the fourth line with, assumedly, Drake and Kopecky. So who sits? Well, if Maltby's on Draper's line, that means it's Filppula or Cleary sitting. Do you SERIOUSLY feel that Downey helps the team more than Flip or Cleary? If so, please perform a cranial-rectal extraction before further posting.


well here are the lines that i think would be better suited for a combo of grit and scoring.

homer-dats-zetts
franzen-flip-sammy/hudler
cleary-draps-malts
drake-kopecky-downey

thats my take on how I would like the lines ... really doubtful to happen. i feel that if sammy slumps .. put hudler in and see how he does and dump of sammy.. give us more cap room to play at the deadline if needed.

defence

lids-sopel
rafalski-kronwall
chelios-lebda
lilja or quincey for the 7th dman

#35 Louisville

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 03:09 PM

QUOTE(Lazerbeam @ September 27, 2007 - 03:38PM) View Post

Even if the Wings carry 8 D-Men where does that leave Quincy if Sopel and Meech are 7 and 8 on the depth chart, as Ken Daniels implies?? this guy has been fantastic defensively!!! He was super solid in the Playoffs last season.

8 D-men list

1.Lidstrom
2.Chellios
3.Kronwall
4.Rafalski
5.Lebda
6.Lilja
7.Quincy--*
8.Sopel or Meech ????


Meech can't be sent down without going through waivers and if he was then someone would pick him up for sure.

Quincey doesn't have that, so him staying in GR protects our investment. Sopel's defensive breakdowns scare me, so I'd like to see him with Lidstrom or Rafalski. Lidstrom and Rafalski together seems like overkill.

#36 stevkrause

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 03:16 PM

QUOTE(eva unit zero @ September 27, 2007 - 09:55AM) View Post

Who should get it ahead of him? Downey? Ellis? Hartigan? None of those guys have performed any better. Grigorenko can have a disappointing camp and still be the best forward trying out.

hello? Ryno. period.

He has outplayed them all... I don't care how young or inexperienced he is, he has more upside and has put in a 100% better camp

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#37 HockeyCrazy3033

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 03:39 PM

Quincey >>> Sopel & Meech

I know..I know. Meech can't be sent down, and I do like the guy and think he will be pretty good, but IMO Kyle is better than Brent and Derek.



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#38 redwingfan19

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 03:48 PM

QUOTE(HockeyCrazy3033 @ September 27, 2007 - 04:39PM) View Post

Quincey >>> Sopel & Meech

I know..I know. Meech can't be sent down, and I do like the guy and think he will be pretty good, but IMO Kyle is better than Brent and Derek.


Agreed, I think Quincey is the youngest most NHL ready Defenceman the Wings have right now. I think he could step in a full time role this year and do well. But since thats not likely to happen I wouldn't mind seeing him In GR because I don't want to see him sitting out all the time, that said give it to Meech, I trust him WAY more than Sopel. That guy's defense downright scares me unsure.gif If Meech can get some games in this year and preform well, he could become some pretty good trade bait. I'm sure there is plenty of teams looking for a young puck moving defenceman. It's better than loosing him for nothing. With the depth the Wings have at the D position I think it's safe to say Meech is expandable.

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#39 WingsZR2

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 04:16 PM

QUOTE(Mors @ September 27, 2007 - 11:49AM) View Post

Scoring is not lacking on this team...


I feel that we do have a lack of scoring, outside of Z and Dats we don't have a lot of firepower. However out badass D and goalie situation makes up for that.
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#40 Kp-Wings

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Posted 27 September 2007 - 04:17 PM

Meech sucks. I see no point in even keeping him.

I don't know where he's getting this idea of Sopel as an extra... either he makes it, or he doesn't. If he does make it, then who exactly would he be sat for? Lilja? Give me a break.

If I were to guess right now, Sopel get's cut and Meech would stay as an extra defenseman. No way would they carry 8 defenseman though, and especially not have Sopel as one of the extras.





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