Hockeytown is DEAD

[Wing-in-avs-town 123]

Maybe it came across different on tv, but the only big hit i recall seeing is two Edmonton players colliding with each other. Cleary threw one pretty good one, maybe thats one that youre referring to, and that was basically it. I didnt notice Hemsky getting run..

The linesman took a pretty good hit too!

[Lou_Siffer 1]

Yep..that too!

[Kp-Wings 3]

As soon as i seen #8 on the ice it felt like a punch to the gut...since i knew then Downey wasnt in. I quickly downed my beer and headed immediately to the concession for more. Even at 8.25 a piece i knew i was going to need it!

A kind of interesting comparison i thought up as for the whole euro thing not selling to the fans, is with wrestling. Remember the days where WCW continuously marched out these all world skilled guys from Mexico and Japan...and no one gave 2 flying s***s about them? Everyone turned over to RAW. The point is you've gotta have personality and character for people to care, like its been pointed out this team is filled with so many bland guys. I mean, can you even imagine somebody calling up a store and saying..."Hi, do have any Mikael Samuelsson jerseys in XL?" The guy on the other end would probably be dumbfounded as to who that even is! This is supposed to be our second line forward and the fans could care less about him. Zetterberg has a little charisma to him, but Datsyuk has zippo. He's all flashy plays and thats it. Offers absolutely nothing for the fans to connect with off the ice. Holmstrom is probably the only guy who's an exception and the fans have really taken to...because of the way he plays and takes abuse. Its a blue collar city here, we like guys who get knocked down and come back for more! Of course marketing is also a problem, as we dont even get the chance to know these guys at all. But its more- so the roster.

Good points Lou.

I remember what you're talking about with the WCW. Bringing in those guys from other countries was supposed to be their way of trying to become more popular then RAW, since they were always second fiddle (in my opinion, anyways). It completely blew up in their face, and scared off what fans they did have. Most of them went to RAW.

The thing about bland players is the point I brought up earlier. These guys are like stone walls, in the sense that they have absolutley no personality or charecter. Look at Datsyuk. It's like pulling teeth trying to get him to do an actual interview or even say anything. It's like that with a lot of guys on this team. Not that interviews are all that big of a deal, but for fans watching the game on TV it is.

That's where the personality thing comes in. Our teams has some charecter guys, like Drake, Draper, Chelios, Holmstrom, Downey, Maltby, even Zetterberg. But there isn't much after that at all. I'll bet you that most people have probably never even heard of Mikeal Samulesson outside of Detroit. He's played for 4 other teams in his NHL career: San Jose, NY Rangers, Pittsburgh, and Florida, and yet the majority of fans for those teams don't even know who he is.

This teams needs more guys that can connect with the fans and make the team more marketable. They don't all have to be North American, either. Ville Nieminen, for as much of a dirty assbag he is, isn't afraid to give an interview or speak his mind.

But in reality, I feel this team needs to be more balanced out. It has, by far, too many Europeans. It's not a racist thing against Europeans, like with Grapes, and it doesn't need to be a one-way street like with Brian Burke. But this team simpily needs more North American players on it. To market the team, you need the homegrown guys that aren't afraid to talk in front of the camera or connect with the fans like they are part of the team, much like the majority the Europeans are afraid to do.

I just think that if it was evened out more, things would be better. Look at the years where we won Stanley Cup's. It was a balanced mix. We had the Russian 5 for the skill and flash (in Vladdy's case, toughness), but we also had Yzerman and Shanny for the leadership and scoring, and McCarty and Kocur for the toughness and fighting. Those teams were balanced out very well, and were successful because of it.

These current day Red Wings teams are not balanced at all. It's all heavly favored towards European skill, but the thing is, the majority of our European players suck. Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Holmstrom, Filppula, and Lidstrom are all great skilled guys, and they are obviously great players. But what the hell else do these useless players like Samulesson and Kopecky bring to the team? Samulesson is supposed to be our 2nd line winger, and I'd bet there are some Red Wings fans that don't even know who he is. Keep in mind these are probably not very serious fans, but still.

This team has some mild forms of toughness: Drake mostly. Downey would also be if he got to play more. But again, there are some pretty useless players on the roster currently (Kopecky comes to mind) that are wasting roster spots that could go to designated tough guys. We've had successful enforcers many times in the past on the Wings, so I don't see why it's such an issue to have one now.

And now we come back to team personality. I mentioned before: we have guys on the team that do have some charecter. Drake, Downey, Holmstrom, Chelios, Maltby, Draper. These are the charecter guys on the Wings, and they do it well. But there still isn't very many, and especially considering the dead weight we current have on the roster right now in some places (again, Kopecky comes to mind), there is room for improvement.

I rag on Holland as much as anyone around here, but for all intents and purposes, I think he is a pretty good GM. We obviously have different views on certain things (North American players and fighters), but for the most part Holland does what he does good because he has kept this team successful over the years in the changing salary cap era of the new NHL.

But to make the players of this team more marketable, he's the one who has to do it. Will he? It's hard to tell. If this team was to have a true North American star player again, then yes, he would have. But that has yet to happen, and as of right now, many would consider this current Red Wings team bland and boring. Not to be a jerk or anything, but it's the truth in some senses.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

C'mon Kp and Lou, I'd have to say, that in my opinion, Cleary is a character guy, he plays hard, hits, forechecks, runs his mouth, fights every once in a blue moon. I know you'll say Im biased, but its just what I think.

But for the most part I agree with you. A bit more north american talent couldnt hurt. I mean, at worst there taking away Kopecky and Samuelssons job, Im all for keeping Lilja, just as a depth d-man though. Sammy and Kopecky's jobs could be better served by my deadline dream pick-ups, Mayers and Ryder, and those are just suggestions, there's alot of other guys that'll be avaiable this season that I would like to see here, and if it's at the expense of those 2, no loss imo.

[eva unit zero 271]

\

You know there has to be a reason that no European player has ever captained a team to the Stanley Cup and that it took until '02 for a European goalie to win one (on a loaded team coached by the best coach in NHL history).

Maybe because until the late 90s, there were no European captains? And European goaltenders have won two of the last five Cups. Name me a European captain or goaltender on a Cup-caliber team before the year 2000. I can think of...hmm....you know, I can't think of anyone on a Cup contender in either of those roles who was Euro. However, there were two Cup finalist goaltenders who were European (Kolzig 98 and Hasek 99) and both pretty much carried a major underdog to the finals when they shouldn't have been anywhere near them.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

I hate the Euro captain has never won a cup arguement, and it wont be an arguement when Lidstrom wins it this year anyways .

[Tane 17]

Lets throw in the Fact that The Wings arn't on Free TV in Detroit. I'm from Windsor, and Growing Up, I'd get to see about a game a week on channel 50. Now, I don't get to see them until late in the year when Abc or NBC or who ever has them now decides to start showing Hockey. Just not good enough. It's rediculous how unavailable the wings are to watch on Free Detroit TV.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I think this sellout problem has more to do with every team in Michigan thriving right now, and the Wings' success is by far the oldest out of all teams, so people are going to have more interest in other teams' success (ie Lions and Tigers). It also doesn't help that all the popular faces of the Red Wings have left in the past 2 years also, but in 5 years or so I think it will balance out. Hopefully the economy will be on the uprise by then, new identities to take the face of the Wings', and the winningness of other teams get old.

Well see

[Kp-Wings 3]

C'mon Kp and Lou, I'd have to say, that in my opinion, Cleary is a character guy, he plays hard, hits, forechecks, runs his mouth, fights every once in a blue moon. I know you'll say Im biased, but its just what I think.

I'm sorry, I completely forgot about Cleary.

He's definitly a charecter guy. You're not biased in that regard at all. I don't know how I forgot to include him. I'm not on top of it today, apparently.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Kp-Wings

[Mickeyisms Rule! 0]

I see all of these complaints that we don't have enough North American talent in the organization. You know what? That's what happens when you consistently are drafting late (or last) in the first round and late in all other rounds after the fact.

Let's face it, scouting North American talent is easy. You don't have to spend a lot of money to travel, and there are plenty of people willing to give you some insight on one guy or the other.

Scouting in Europe is not so easy, but the Wings have been forced to do it, simply due to their own success in the last 15 or so years. Why take a possible 3rd or 4th line forward in the second round when you can get a potential 1st or seond liner from Sweden? Why take a throw-away pick at number 261 when Henrik Zetterburg is available?

Is it because they have funny names? Maybe they should change them to sound more North American like the Chinese employees of my company do.

On a brighter note for all of you fans of "good Canadian boys," as Don Cherry loves to say, we took 4 Canadians and one Swede this year.

[schulzte 18]

Good to be back, I just got back on line after being away for several weeks. There may be a silver lining to think about in all of this. Think about the city of Detroit for a bit and compare it between the mid 90's when the Wings really got hot, and today. I think one significant difference between then and now is the multitude of entertainment options available in downtown now compared to ten years ago (i.e. gambling, more bars, restaurants, more live music, a Tiger team that doesn't suck etc.) What else would you go to Downtown Detroit to do in 1995? A Red Wings game was the place to see and be seen. The Red Wings unquestionably rested on their laurals, not from a player personel stand point, but from a marketing standpoint and now have more competition for those dollars. The Atlanta Braves suffered much the same fate after the post-Olympic downtown boom. Luckily, the Braves changed ownership and are marketing their product better. Now a Braves team that is a shell of their former selves have better attendance than five years ago. The moral of the story; winning isn't always enough. The Wings must increase their marketing budget and, yes, lower their ticket prices.

Now for some quick math.

Let's say that ticket prices get lowered an average of $10 across the board. The $88 and $22 seats probably don't need to go that much lower, but the $54 seats should be about $40, and the $44 seats should be about $30. If an average of $10 is taken off every seat and the Wings average 17,000 a game, which seems realistic right now, the ownership will lose $170,000 a game in revenue. Multiply by 41 games, and that equals $7,000,000 in lost revenue. Now lets assume as a result of this price decrease, attendance increase by 1,500 a game and that the average seat would then cost about $45 instead of $55. Lets also assume that each added fan will make $10 in concession/souveiner purchases at the game. So now we're talking 1,500 more fans generating roughly $75,000 per game in added revenue, or about $82,000 a game, or $3,400,000.

My opinion is that a significant drop in ticket prices would only lead to about a $3-4 million loss in revenue, which Mr. Ilitch ought to consider a small price to pay to fill the seats and get some new blood into the JLA. For those who purchased season tickets, credit the difference between the old and new prices toward the cost of playoff tickets, or just give them round one free. That seems like a fair settlement to that situation.

[OsGOD 3]

Lets throw in the Fact that The Wings arn't on Free TV in Detroit. I'm from Windsor, and Growing Up, I'd get to see about a game a week on channel 50. Now, I don't get to see them until late in the year when Abc or NBC or who ever has them now decides to start showing Hockey. Just not good enough. It's rediculous how unavailable the wings are to watch on Free Detroit TV or via planned public appearnces.

[mannysBETTER3434 1]

Sharp is a busch league writer along with Rob Parker. Sharp hates everything. He hates Michigan, Michigan State, Lloyd Carr, and heck he probably hates the Tigers too. Guy is the worst writer in America. I blame the Wings attendence on the economy.

[Avalanche Warning 0]

Well then , thank you Michigan economy, the Avs sellout streak record remains intact.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Well then , thank you Michigan economy, the Avs sellout streak record remains intact.

Congrats on that, I guess. So, if Denver doesn't have a lousy economy to blame, what's the Avs' excuse for ending theirs?

[livediehockey80 0]

In my opinion, the biggest reason for the ticket sale drop off is the local economy. Michigan is going through a terrible period with layoffs at the white-collar and blue-collar level. Few people have disposable incomes to blow on season tickets...let alone a single game ticket.

Illitch made one big strategic blunder: he didn't adjust his ticket prices after the lock out. He really thought that fans would pay ANYTHING to see the high-flying Wings kick ass in the league. Reality check for Mr. Illitch, when people are saving money because they are un-employed or facing possible pink-slips, the last thing they will do is splurge on hockey tickets.

The Red Wings should have offer more price incentives for fans to fill the seats at the JOE.

What kills me is that I live in Washington, DC. We have had the hottest economy in the nation...thanks to out-of-control federal government spending on defense and homeland security contracts. High-skilled, good-paying jobs are so plentiful here that you can quit your job one day and get a new job offer (with a higher salary and benefits) the following day. Per capita wise next to NYC and SF Bay area, the Washington, DC area has the most affluent population in the country.

Yet, no one visits Capitals home games. There are so many empty seats at the Verizon Center because no one really cares about hockey in DC. If people in DC had the passion of Red Wings fans, the arena would be sold out every night.

[StormJH1 231]

What kills me is that I live in Washington, DC. We have had the hottest economy in the nation...thanks to out-of-control federal government spending on defense and homeland security contracts. High-skilled, good-paying jobs are so plentiful here that you can quit your job one day and get a new job offer (with a higher salary and benefits) the following day. Per capita wise next to NYC and SF Bay area, the Washington, DC area has the most affluent population in the country.

Yet, no one visits Capitals home games. There are so many empty seats at the Verizon Center because no one really cares about hockey in DC. If people in DC had the passion of Red Wings fans, the arena would be sold out every night.

Doesn't everything you wrote there about the D.C. economy and the Caps completely contradict your explaination of the economy and ticket prices resulting in the Wings' attendance problems? If the economy is so good there, why wouldn't more people attend Caps games, then?

It's so fashionable and convenient to blame the Detroit economy, as if Detroit is the only city where the economy is struggling, anyway. But most fans that fill the seats of JLA are downtown Detroiters working automotive jobs, and walking to the rink from their plant after work. They're mostly well-to-do suburbanites, coincidentally the same demographic of people who flood internet chat boards. Or, they're corporate tickets redistributed or sold to employees. These people could still afford to attend Wings games, if they really wanted to, THEY JUST DON'T WANT TO.

And the reason (here and in Colorado) they don't want to is because there are no more super teams in the NHL like the Wings and Avs of the 90's, where every year, you're signing a new Hall of Famer, whether it's Chelios, Coffey, Borque, Shanahan, Hull, Kariya, or Selanne. Hell, even the Wings 4th lines were dotted with players like Gilchrist and Verbeek who have had amazing NHL careers. The salary cap won't allow that to happen. Joe Sakic is like the Steve Yzerman for the Avs fans, and he's still there. Other guys, like Milan Hejduk, are still around, and they've brought in young talent. But the Wings leadership are quiet guys of European descent, and simply don't sell tickets as well as the super teams of the past.

People in other states always ripped on the Hockeytown moniker b/c they considered our fanbase to be a bandwagon group of followers, who would hop off if the team didn't buy itself championships. I'm a Wings fan for life, but now is the time to show people they were wrong, and so far, we're just not doing it.

[Shockwave180 0]

Well then , thank you Michigan economy, the Avs sellout streak record remains intact.

Didn't the Avs' sellout streak end a couple years ago?

[Guest jaytan]

Well, it's easy to see how the casual fans have become spoiled. The Wings have been a contender for a generation and eventually, that raises expectations. If the team lacks exciting play, personality and charm AND the seats are overpriced, simply being a contender won't cut it. And that year off sure didn't help either.

[Feldmarschall 9]

Personally, not seeing the Wings has been a matter of economics and distance. I've attended four games in the past two seasons, and I was given tickets all four times. Left to my own devices, I'd have never gone, just sat at home and watched on FSD. Too much money, too long of a drive. Who wants to head downtown to watch a hockey game? A big part of why the Pistons work so well these days is their closer proximity to the fans themselves. The Palace is a great suburban location, and going to see them wouldn't be any big deal at all if I felt so inclined. But the Wings? I have to drive for an hour or more, contend with traffic, pay $15 to park, $54 for s***ty upper bowl tickets, $9 for a beer, and I still end up pissing in a trough. I do it anyway because the tickets are free and I love hockey, but it's easy to see why so many people are turned off by the idea of going to see a team with 1/2 the payroll and 1/4 the stars it used to have for the same price as ever.

I recall reading that interview conducted with Ken, Scotty, and Mr. I. When asked about the sagging attendance, they said it was a clear message to wake up. I hope they take it to heart, because things are going to get worse before they get better. The team needs more accessibility and cheaper tickets, not to mention some kind of league-wide marketing to get people interested in hockey. I went to BWW the other night and only one TV in the whole joint had the Wings on. Everybody else is busy watching some out of market football game. Who gives a s*** about Buffalo and Dallas? Such is the state of the hockey market.

[betterREDthandead 58]

Personally, not seeing the Wings has been a matter of economics and distance. I've attended four games in the past two seasons, and I was given tickets all four times. Left to my own devices, I'd have never gone, just sat at home and watched on FSD. Too much money, too long of a drive. Who wants to head downtown to watch a hockey game? A big part of why the Pistons work so well these days is their closer proximity to the fans themselves.

I see you're in Holly, so what you say makes sense from where you are. But I got news for ya - most people consider Auburn Hills the boondocks. Let alone Holly. The Palace is not in a "great suburban location", it's a solid 45 minutes from most people. Downtown is closer to a lot more people than Auburn Hills is.

[Avalanche Warning 0]

Congrats on that, I guess. So, if Denver doesn't have a lousy economy to blame, what's the Avs' excuse for ending theirs?

Jose Theodore.

and the streak ended early last season in a game vs Chicago, but the streak is an NHL record.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Jose Theodore.

I highly doubt one single player is the reason why. Heck, he's hasn't even been playing that often. Budaj is the offical starter now in Colorado.

[datsyuk_13_fan 0]

Colorado is pretty much focused on the rockies right now since they are in the playoffs, probably why they didnt sell out.

[cprice12 117]

The Wings should just hire another marketing firm to deem them Hockeytown again, and then they will magically once again be Hockeytown. See how easy that is? Because, hey, if a marketing firms says so...it must be true. (fans in St. Louis don't actually bleed blue blood when cut...that's called marketing.)

There is no trend. Detroit is still Hockeytown. The Joe has been sold out every game so far, and is sold out for the rest of the season already. The cup is ours.

Funny.

I think not selling out the home opener in Detroit is fairly significant and says things are not well with how the fans feel about the team.

That would be like the Cardinals not selling out the home opener here in St. Louis...that would be unheard of.