NHL is killing hockey in Detroit

[up2here 41]

I have a theory that probably has been brought up here before but I thought was worth discussing again; having the Wings in Western Conference in the Central Division is hurting attendance. The rivalries that the people in the Detroit area have historically followed are dead. We need more games against Montreal,Boston and most importantly Toronto,it also doesnt help that the Blackhawks have basically iced a team of kittens for the past 5 years. I understand the importance of fostering NEW rivalries but is it worth losing Detroit? I know there are a few theories for why attendance is dropping off and while its not time to panic yet ,18000 a game is still very good, there is reason for concern if the trend continues.

[toby91_ca 620]

Well, the attendance is a little alarming right now, but after 2 games, definately not time to panic. They got 17,600 for their first game and less than 17,000 for the 2nd, so they are not at the 18,000 level. Those numbers are still decent, but the alarming thing is that if you check around the league, those teams that have had home openers so far, Detroit is tied with Nashville for lowest % capacity average at 86%.

For the record, I don't think it has anything to do with the conference and who they are playing. They have been playinig this type of schedule for awhile now and attendance wasn't a problem until recently.

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile 3]

How expensive are tickets?

For the Colorado Avalanche single game tickets sell as follows:

Rinkside (Glass Row 1) $211

Rinkside (Row 2-5) $145

Prime Loge $121

Corner Loge $102

End Loge $93

Lower Center Balcony $68

Upper Center Balcony $57

Lower Corner End Balcony $47

Corner Balcony, Mid End Balcony $40

Upper End Balcony $26

Club Corner $112

Club End $99

Edited October 10, 2007 by Wings_Fan_In_Exile

[toby91_ca 620]

How expensive are tickets?

Not nearly as expensive as Toronto.

[OsGOD 3]

You wanna know when the Attendace comes an issue? you will when Moneybags lowers tickets by 1/2 across the board...

THere is no problem with attendance and the only thing attendance is looked upon financially is as Revenue... It is manufactured by some rogue sports writers.

Seriously Peeps.... there is NO PROBLEM... NO PROBLEM at all... as they say, go if you can... if you can't, don't. Mr. Moneybags doesn really care he is still bleeding the wallets of those still going.

Its all good. we can stop the panic... Detroit is NOT DYING!

Not nearly as expensive as Toronto.

that just makes them suckers. haha

Edited October 10, 2007 by OsGOD

[StormJH1 231]

I have a theory that probably has been brought up here before but I thought was worth discussing again; having the Wings in Western Conference in the Central Division is hurting attendance. The rivalries that the people in the Detroit area have historically followed are dead. We need more games against Montreal,Boston and most importantly Toronto,it also doesnt help that the Blackhawks have basically iced a team of kittens for the past 5 years. I understand the importance of fostering NEW rivalries but is it worth losing Detroit? I know there are a few theories for why attendance is dropping off and while its not time to panic yet ,18000 a game is still very good, there is reason for concern if the trend continues.

I live in Minnesota, (but was raised in Detroit) and the people here and in Dallas don't want to hear it. Those two teams have the distinction of being the only two squads where every other team in their division is in a different time zone, which, with the unbalanced schedule, means a lot of starts at 9pm or 9:30pm.

You're absolutely right that the Wings are suffering from a lack of rivalries and a lack of momentum, but in the Wings case, I don't think the conference and division have anything to do with it. The NHL isn't like major league baseball, the average fan doesn't generally follow the division standings because they're basically meaningless. The top 8 teams from the division will be in the playoffs, and for 16 years, the Wings have been among them. But our biggest rivals in the past decade have had nothing to do with divisions...Colorado wasn't in our division in the 90's, and that was one of the best rivalries in sports.

NHL rivalries come either from the playoffs, or from some freak occurance during the regular season (usually a cheap shot or brawl). That's what Bettman missed when he was hacking up the schedules. Right now, you could argue the wings don't even have a true rival, but if they did, it would probably be Anaheim, and people didn't even fill the building for that matchup on OPENING NIGHT. The schedule is not to blame.

Also, during the Wings surge in popularity (1993-2003?), tell me, who was our big division rival then? We played one good series with St. Louis ('96, Yzerman goal), but they weren't a "rival" to the degree of Colorado, or even arguably the Stars and Ducks. And Chicago sucked during pretty much that whole span.

You can't argue simaltaneously that a) The NHL needs to stop expanding West and bring some of those teams back East and to Canada; AND b) That the Wings should be moved to the Eastern Conference. If you have a Western and Eastern Conference, the only way we'd deserve to move to the East is if there were MORE teams added to the West, not fewer.

Technically, Columbus is further east than us anyway, though I doubt the NHL would do them any favors. If Nashville had moved to K.C., it might have worked out better...K.C. trades places with the Minnesota Wild. Oh well.

[up2here 41]

I live in Minnesota, (but was raised in Detroit) and the people here and in Dallas don't want to hear it. Those two teams have the distinction of being the only two squads where every other team in their division is in a different time zone, which, with the unbalanced schedule, means a lot of starts at 9pm or 9:30pm.

You're absolutely right that the Wings are suffering from a lack of rivalries and a lack of momentum, but in the Wings case, I don't think the conference and division have anything to do with it. The NHL isn't like major league baseball, the average fan doesn't generally follow the division standings because they're basically meaningless. The top 8 teams from the division will be in the playoffs, and for 16 years, the Wings have been among them. But our biggest rivals in the past decade have had nothing to do with divisions...Colorado wasn't in our division in the 90's, and that was one of the best rivalries in sports.

NHL rivalries come either from the playoffs, or from some freak occurance during the regular season (usually a cheap shot or brawl). That's what Bettman missed when he was hacking up the schedules. Right now, you could argue the wings don't even have a true rival, but if they did, it would probably be Anaheim, and people didn't even fill the building for that matchup on OPENING NIGHT. The schedule is not to blame.

Excellent post but theres one thing youre forgetting. People in Detroit have been watching the Wings play Toronto,Boston,Montreal and Chicago on a regular basis for 80 years. Now 3 out of 4 of those teams we only play once every 2 years. Its not a slight against hockey fans in Minnesota at all, I think they are probably the most passionate in all of the USA, but their NHL tradition is not the same and its probably easier for those fans to accept new rivalries. I also agree with you that rivalries are born in the playoffs but why give up on rivalries that already exist and have existed for 80 years?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I think a lot of the attendance problems have to do with the popularity of this team. When guys like Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, McCarty, and others left, that created a huge void in the popularity of this team. All those guys played for us for many years, and the young guys on this team will probably never be as popular as any of those players. The Wings for the longest time had all the talent, and even though this team is still good, we're not nearly as talented as the teams of the past. I don't think that fans are overjoyed to go to games to see our 2nd line which consists of Sammy, Hudler, and Flip. Likewise, even though many of you don't want to admit this, not having any fighters on your team doesn't help the crowd's enthusiasm either. Many people go to hockey games to see physical play and fights, and the Wings don't offer that whatsoever.

[Viperar 16]

NHL rivalries come either from the playoffs, or from some freak occurance during the regular season (usually a cheap shot or brawl). That's what Bettman missed when he was hacking up the schedules. Right now, you could argue the wings don't even have a true rival, but if they did, it would probably be Anaheim, and people didn't even fill the building for that matchup on OPENING NIGHT. The schedule is not to blame.

while its not to blame the schedule right now sucks

[Izzy24 44]

What's to stop Chelios from moving the team into the Eastern Conference? In the meantime he can buy all the extra tickets and give them away to the poor.

I think I am going to start all my posts with "what's to stop Chelios from..." in honor of sirdrake.

[StevieY9802 6]

How many times have we gone over this? The ticket prices are the biggest thing hurting people showing up. When you have 3 other competitive teams in the town people aren't obessed like they used to be and that hurts too. I don't think the schedule hurts THAT much. The Wings have been playing these teams for the most part the last 7 years or so. Bettman and the league were trying to force rivalries which I didn't udnerstand cause playing the Preds a whopping 2 more times was going to make a bigger rivalry? Would more people come around if the Wings were playing TO or the Habs and what not? Maybe but at most you are only going to have those guys in your building once a year in the old system anyways. Lower ticket prices and try to market this team a little better. No marketing was needed when they were the only thing worth watching 10 years ago. All you had to say was 62 wins last year or defending Stanley Cup champs and people came running.

[Winged Scooter 0]

I think it's everything mentioned here IMHO. The 5,000 games against Nashville,Chicago, Columbus etc..ticket prices and economy. I do believe there are certain games next year that will draw huge interest when they change the schedule, but to state the obvious , ticket prices NEED to go down.

Does anyone here know which team has the lowest ticket prices?

[Offsides 21]

I've hated not playing the east as much..but you can't just force a rivalry with Toronto because at one point we had a rivarlry with Toronto. The NHL is just not set up for rivalries anymore. I mean...they form, somewhat.....but players move every year....everything changes and there's not a lot of good opportunity to build up any real hate.

Look at Colorado. They aren't even close to the same team we hated..I could care less about playing Colorado anymore. I was much more interested in seeing Nashville...because they were sort of fun to hate. I don't know...just my 2 cents on the issue.

[toby91_ca 620]

Does anyone here know which team has the lowest ticket prices?

Toronto is highest, with an average price of $88 and St. Louis is lowest, with an average price of $22.

[Spongewingredpants 75]

i have to second that theory...

Detroit - toronto

detroit - Habs

Detroit - Rangers

that gets my juices flowing

Detroit - Colombus

Detroit - Nashville

Detroit - San Jose

not so much if at all

[Flip-check 6]

I've hated not playing the east as much..but you can't just force a rivalry with Toronto because at one point we had a rivarlry with Toronto. The NHL is just not set up for rivalries anymore. I mean...they form, somewhat.....but players move every year....everything changes and there's not a lot of good opportunity to build up any real hate.

Yes. And this is why Hank's idea in another thread makes so much sense.

If the teams had to bump and grind against eachother to get out of their division in the playoffs, there'd be actual and meaningful contact between them, and we'd get SOMETHING out of the goo that is the whole conference.

It's that simple, if the league wants rivalries... give teams a reason to have them. And more importantly, the means.

[StormJH1 231]

I think a lot of the attendance problems have to do with the popularity of this team. When guys like Yzerman, Fedorov, Shanahan, McCarty, and others left, that created a huge void in the popularity of this team. All those guys played for us for many years, and the young guys on this team will probably never be as popular as any of those players. The Wings for the longest time had all the talent, and even though this team is still good, we're not nearly as talented as the teams of the past. I don't think that fans are overjoyed to go to games to see our 2nd line which consists of Sammy, Hudler, and Flip. Likewise, even though many of you don't want to admit this, not having any fighters on your team doesn't help the crowd's enthusiasm either. Many people go to hockey games to see physical play and fights, and the Wings don't offer that whatsoever.

Right. Up2Here has some good points too. (and no, IMO, Detroit fans are better professional hockey fans than Minnesotans, though if they keep selling out the XCel Center for years and years, that could change over time)

Think about if the New York Yankees suddenly developed the payroll mentality of the mid-level market team. They'd still play in the Bronx, they'd still have their history, and they'd still have fans. But they wouldn't be the "Yankees" b/c part of that whole identity is knowing that you're going to have a club full of established, recognizable players, and if it ever gets bad, your team is going to trade for or sign other big name players, regardless of the price.

There was no direct equivalent to the NY Yankees in the pre-salary cap NHL, but if one was close, it would have to be the Red Wings (the Avs did this too, to a lesser degree). The salary cap was necessary for the viability of the NHL, but teams like Detroit have to suffer as a result. After years of success, Detroit fans developed unrealistic expectations about having a "Super Team" and retaining star players.

In some sports, parity can be a good thing--it's good in the NFL b/c that league already enjoys widespread popularity. But part of the whole justification for the lockout was that small market teams in the NHL couldn't compete. What the league is finding out is that you can't make a non-hockey fan in a bad hockey market into a fan, simply because their team is doing well. But you can destroy the interest of hockey fans in decent markets by turning their "Super Teams" into ordinary teams with less recognizable names, and two lines filled out with young players making the league minimum to stay under the cap.

[Wings&Beer 0]

People are either refusing to acknowledge the problem or they are ignorant to it. To say the Wings has 17,000 asses in the seats on Monday is a complete lie. According to the Edmonton Sun there were about 13,000 people in attendance to Monday's game. Now I know people are going to respond by questioning the credibility of the Edmonton Sun but I have been going to games for 15 years, seeing the good, the bad, and Monday...the ugly as far as attendance is concerned. When the 4 or 5 top rows are empty there is not 17,000 people in the arena.

STOP with the economy crap, people are going in droves to see the Tigers, the Lions, and soon the Pistons. There are number of problems, and the economy is close to the bottom of the list:

1.) The lockout was all about creating a salary cap and controlling excessive payrolls, the CBA created a nearly 30 million payroll deduction for the Wings, yet ticket prices never decreased. The ability of the Wings to bring the big players to Detroit has decreased and people who are not die-hard Wings fans are not familiar with the new faces. It doesnt matter if you bring older players who are way past their prime, people came out to see them because they know who they are.

2.) Joe Louis is old and boring. For as long as I can remember the same exact songs have played at the same exact time, the same contests at intermission have been going on , and there is absolutely no excitement to the pre-game events. The Detroit Vipers had a better pre-game introduction than the Wings do. When the Wings score a goal its the same horn, no pyrotechnics (Calgary), no lights, nothing. Now, I AM NOT saying that is what I am there for, in fact I love the classic stuff, but we are not talking about me or anyone on this forum, we are talking about bringing the borderline fans to the game. Face it, people like all this BS when they go out to a game. They do this in the playoffs, why not regular season?

3.) The schedule is not interesting. There is no more Avalanche rivalry, and guess what? IF we did create a rivalry, then the NHL would schedule the games on VERSUS and a lot of Detroiters would not even be able to watch it.

4.) Hockey is a lot more difficult to follow than Basketball. Almost anyone can name all of the players on the Auburn Hills Pistons, even if you hate them as I do. Ask the average Detroit sports person to name every player on the Red Wings. This is what people like to do when it comes to sports; they like to know or appear to know who they are talking about and be able to follow their play. Also on this point, the wealth in this area is primarily in Oakland County, where the Pistons are located. It is a hell of a lot easier to pack the family in the car, drive to the palace, park in the big ass lot, and walk up to the stadium. People who go to Joe Louis all have their own little tips and tricks as to where they park, where its cheaper, and how close it is to the stadium. Face it: It is more difficult to go to a Red Wings game.

5.) Hockey is not dicussed on ESPN anywhere near the way it used to be. This is the place that the general sports fan gets their information, and hears about big plays, scores, players, etc. and follows up with heightened interest in the sport.

I dont have anymore time but these are just some of the reasons, disagree with me if you want, I understand. This is what we need, to discuss thoughts and new options to the problems from the people who know the Red Wings and want to revive Hockeytown. Maybe someone will hear us sooner rather than later.

[Hank 0]

I have a theory that probably has been brought up here before but I thought was worth discussing again; having the Wings in Western Conference in the Central Division is hurting attendance. The rivalries that the people in the Detroit area have historically followed are dead. We need more games against Montreal,Boston and most importantly Toronto,it also doesnt help that the Blackhawks have basically iced a team of kittens for the past 5 years. I understand the importance of fostering NEW rivalries but is it worth losing Detroit? I know there are a few theories for why attendance is dropping off and while its not time to panic yet ,18000 a game is still very good, there is reason for concern if the trend continues.

The schedule definitely is hurting attendance. I know I'd much rather watch Detroit play Toronto 8 times than the garbage that exists in the Central. Outside of Detroit, there isn't an interesting team. Sure, Nashville will probably still do alright but how can you get into a rivalry when the other teams fans couldn't care less?

I still think a big reason for the lack of butts in the seats is the style of play and the makeup of this team. We're a soft team with no real 'star' to jump on. And that doesn't mean a 50 goal scoring North American. The city would happily embrace anyone that played like McCarty did in his prime, or a prime-Probert (duh, that's an easy statment to make).

I love the Wings and I always will but there's something very milk-toast about the team we currently have. We need more character guys.

I know I'll get slammed for saying this and labeled a fair-weather fan, but a lot of nights I find myself flipping from the Wings game to other more exciting teams. Maybe it's because I'm tired of watching them play the Blackhawks for the 24th time in 3 years, or maybe I'm tired of watching too much ticky-tack hockey, or maybe it's because the entire league knows that we sewed up the Central Division title in September. Who knows?

But as of right now, the Wings regular season does seem like a formality. And it doesn't help that 40% of their games are against weak opposition that barely hold my interest.

People are either refusing to acknowledge the problem or they are ignorant to it. To say the Wings has 17,000 asses in the seats on Monday is a complete lie. According to the Edmonton Sun there were about 13,000 people in attendance to Monday's game. Now I know people are going to respond by questioning the credibility of the Edmonton Sun but I have been going to games for 15 years, seeing the good, the bad, and Monday...the ugly as far as attendance is concerned. When the 4 or 5 top rows are empty there is not 17,000 people in the arena.

I can attest to that estimation as I was there. There was definitely no more than 15,000 people at the Joe.

I like the rest of your points too. Excellent post.

Edited October 10, 2007 by Hank

[Viperar 16]

very good post wings$beer

[arnoldbuck 0]

Nicely put Wings&Beer. No excuses, just the truth. Well done.

[vangvace 12]

People are either refusing to acknowledge the problem or they are ignorant to it.

I dont have anymore time but these are just some of the reasons, disagree with me if you want, I understand. This is what we need, to discuss thoughts and new options to the problems from the people who know the Red Wings and want to revive Hockeytown. Maybe someone will hear us sooner rather than later.

Excellent post. I would like to add another point to it as well. The marketing of the NHL and Red Wings in general is horrendous. I believe that this also contributes to the problem. Esp because it's not the diehards they have to sell to, but the borderline fans. How is the casual fan supposed to know who's on the team, or in the NHL for that matter, if the players aren't being marketed?

[Copenhagen848 58]

very good post wings$beer

x2, excellent.

[OsGOD 3]

Ah well its a MONDAY at the beginning of the season against the Oilers... those conditions arenot exactly the perfect strom to get me to head down there and get my arse in the seat.

I love the Joe and I love hockey... other things come up.

The bottom line moneybags and anyone who who really cares is seats sold... who cares if they don't go... seat is bought and paid for... Concession that would be lost on them will be paid for 100x over by Gus and friend chugging down $9 beers.

Get Roenick or Fedorov on the ice and I will be there watching... Those are the games i want to go to. I can "see" the wings anytime i want. I want to see my favorites out there.

Now tonight is better sweet because Calgary i have no interest in watching live... BUT with the Wizard making an appearance that would have been sweet.

Edited October 10, 2007 by OsGOD

[arnoldbuck 0]

Ah well its a MONDAY at the beginning of the season against the Oilers... those conditions arenot exactly the perfect strom to get me to head down there and get my arse in the seat.

I love the Joe and I love hockey... other things come up.

The bottom line moneybags and anyone who who really cares is seats sold... who cares if they don't go... seat is bought and paid for... Concession that would be lost on them will be paid for 100x over by Gus and friend chugging down $9 beers.

Get Roenick or Fedorov on the ice and I will be there watching... Those are the games i want to go to. I can "see" the wings anytime i want. I want to see my favorites out there.

Now tonight is better sweet because Calgary i have no interest in watching live... BUT with the Wizard making an appearance that would have been sweet.

But it does matter. This is Hockeytown. Don't get me wrong, yeah, I want to see those headlining names a top rank teams too. But if Detroit fans want to get defensive when other cities call them out for being NOT being Hockeytown. We have to be able to back it up. It is embarrassing when we have that written across the ice and the camera pans across the rows of empty seats.

Yes, the money is there, the team isn't hurting ... but the image and ideals of a proud, winning team are not.