Complicated Osgood Question

[Offsides 21]

Haha, forget stats. We'll just use marshmellows as a guideline. And we'll get a couple of goalies to balance spoons on their noses and whoever wins goes in the Hall.

[TheCaptain19 49]

i posted this in the "simple question" thread too.. just wanted to share what i found at bishops site. too bad he'll never wear it.

[omaratcho 0]

Osgood i can't say screams hall of famer as of now. look at Hasek now. the instant one hears his name they think oh he was once the greatest goalie in the world! LOOK AT HIM NOW!!! He's too old, too slow, and is not ready for this game of the NHL. He cannot keep up with the intensity and downright fearlessness of today's young nhl players and that is pretty self evident, look at the 4 goals he let in tonight. Hasek no matter what though will alwasy be seen as a hall of famer past his prime or not. Now osgood is still reasonably young. In all honesty, other then wheen he led us to the the cup in ('98 was it?), is standing up, taking charge, and showings us he is worth of the the stats he represents. He is showing us he really is an elite goalie, that he is the next Hasek of the Detroit Redwings. Not now, but i believe if he were to become our starting goalie instead of Hasek, which i think should happen quickly before Hasek relaly starts to hurt the team, he can really show the NHL what he's got... and believe me, he's got alot.

[puckloo39 5,686]

That was a whole lot of words, all run together. But what you're trying to say, I think, is that Hasek has amassed a HHOF-worthy set of credentials and Ozzie still has time to do the same, if Hasek will just get out of the way and let that happen?

Ozzie stands on his own merits, IMO. Hasek's not involved in Ozzie's eventual call to the Hall, or not, as the case might be.

i posted this in the "simple question" thread too.. just wanted to share what i found at bishops site. too bad he'll never wear it.

That must be the new Ozzie helmet we heard about last season, that never saw the light of day. Too bad, it's kinda cool.

Edited November 14, 2007 by puckloo39

[Offsides 21]

Nah...Ozzie shouldn't change his helmet! He made the right decision. This is the second time he's had another helmet and the second time he's denied it. His current attire suits him.

[eva unit zero 271]

You're making two BIG assumptions. 1. That the hall of fame selection committee is that mechanical and mathematical in its selections (I highly doubt it) and 2. That anyone outside of Detroit shares your opinion on Osgood.

I brought up the numberof goalies inducted thing to make a point; the top handful of goaltenders from an era have typically been inducted into the Hall. Osgood is in the top handful of goaltenders of his era. That means that at the very least, it's not an open and shut case of him being locked out.

I'm sorry, but I really don't think any goalie to play for Detroit in the past couple of decades deserves to be in the Hall of Fame based on what they accomplished while in Detroit. Hasek and Cujo's potential entrence into the hall isn't in any way based on their stay in Detroit, we're just an astrix in their careers. Vernon proved he was a champion with Calgary, so he has a leg up on Osgood (though I doubt he'll get in either). Hasek will always be that guy who single-handedly dominated the league with Buffalo. From 1974-75 until Hasek left Buffalo they had only missed the playoffs 3 times (only once with Hasek). When he left they missed 3 times in a row. Look at the goaltending hole in Colorado with Roy gone, or the excessive playoff choking of Turco in the absence of Broduer... and just imagine the gap a retired Broduer will leave in New Jersey. Even the most imaginative Osgood fans can't say he is responcible for Detroit's success, you can't make that claim about any goalie we've had since Sawchuk.

Osgood started playing for us regularly in 1993-94, the previous season we were 47-28-9, the first season with Osgood we were 46-30-8. Next to no difference. Our last season before trading Osgood we were 49-20-9-4, the following season we were 51-17-10-4.. again, very little difference. In fact, on both occasions we had better records without Osgood (though the difference is minute). We've won 3 recent cups, 2 with goalies not named Osgood. Since we obtained Osgood we've had 3 Selke trophy winners, and 6 Norris trophy winners (and a hand full of guys that got runner up). The last time a Wing won a Vezina? 1954-55 (Sawchuk, tho back then a Vezina was basically a Jennings). You just can't rationally say that any Detroit goalie deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, because it has never EVER been our goaltending that's made the difference between Presidents trophy and out of the playoffs, or between cup and first round exit (our 1st round exits are purely the fault of cold scorers, not poor goaltending). We could put most any half-way decent goalie between the pipes and he'd have plenty of wins.

If Osgood won another cup as a starter, or got above Tony Esposito in wins, he may be able to get in based on stats(and who knows, he may). However, I doubt it. That being said, claiming Osgood deserves to be in the hall of fame on the basis that there are a lack of clear hall of fame favorites really kind of belittles the honor.

I feel Ozzie deserves to be in the Hall based on his level of play, not based on the level of play of his competitors.

If Ozzie passes Esposito, then maybe? When is the last time a goalie won 425 games and was MAYBE a Hall of Famer? The only goaltender with 400 wins who is not either already in the Hall, or a lock to be inducted when eligible, is Curtis Joseph, who as a starter has won zero individual awards, zero Stanley Cup championships, zero Stanley Cup finals appearances, and one President's Trophy. Compare with Osgood who has won the Jennings, has been named a second-team All-Star, has appeared in the finals, and has won a Cup, as well as being the starting goaltender for two President's trophy winners. Come to think of it, while people are slamming Ozzie for playing on great teams..Hasek has started for just as many President's trophy winning teams as Ozzie did.

EDIT: Interesting statistic; Since the Original Six era began in 1942-43, exactly three goaltenders have been the starting netminder for multiple seasons in which the Wings have allowed fewer than 2.5 goals per game as a team. Terry Sawchuk, Chris Osgood, and Dominik Hasek.

Edited November 14, 2007 by eva unit zero

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

I feel Ozzie deserves to be in the Hall based on his level of play, not based on the level of play of his competitors.

His level of play has never been at a proven level of excellence (the few games thus far this season isn't enough). That's the point. How many times do I have to repeat the same statistics? Every goalie in Detroit in the past two decades has yielded almost the exact same results as Osgood. We're always one of the top defensive clubs, our goalies almost always have twice as many wins as losses (if not way more), our goalies always hover around the same SV% and GAA. So, if you're someone on the selection committee, you can't logically overlook the fact that Osgood did the exact same thing in Detroit that every other goalie was doing. Winning. They don't put people in the hall of fame for doing what's expected of them, people are in there for going above and beyond expectations (unless you have Crosby type expectations).

If Ozzie passes Esposito, then maybe? When is the last time a goalie won 425 games and was MAYBE a Hall of Famer?

You answered your own question. Cujo is in no way a guarantee for the hall of fame. He is a big MAYBE.

Come to think of it, while people are slamming Ozzie for playing on great teams..Hasek has started for just as many President's trophy winning teams as Ozzie did.

Also, sorry, I'm trying not to get personal. But that's an f'ing stupid thing to say, because (unlike Osgood) all of Hasek's truely great accomplishments were done with a team that wasn't even in contention for a presidents trophy. Sure, Osgood only has won 2, but he's come close 5-6 times because the Wings are always near the top of the standings. Buffalo? They were barely in contention for their devision crown. That kind of comparison hurts your argument. Sure, the 2002 team was one of the most stacked in NHL history (non-Montreal at least), but for the love of god, how many times must you people be reminded that Hasek's 2002 cup win was simply the cherry on top of a 20-layer cake. With or without the stacked teams Hasek played on he'd still be a hall of famer, one considered one of the all time best between the pipes. You can't say the same for Osgood. Please please please, don't reply unless you're going to say something new and intelligent, just let the thread die.

EDIT: Interesting statistic; Since the Original Six era began in 1942-43, exactly three goaltenders have been the starting netminder for multiple seasons in which the Wings have allowed fewer than 2.5 goals per game as a team. Terry Sawchuk, Chris Osgood, and Dominik Hasek.

If Cujo, Legacy, or Vernon played for us as long as Osgood they'd all be able to make that claim too.

Edited November 14, 2007 by RedWings Gone Wild

[eva unit zero 271]

His level of play has never been at a proven level of excellence (the few games thus far this season isn't enough). That's the point. How many times do I have to repeat the same statistics? Every goalie in Detroit in the past two decades has yielded almost the exact same results as Osgood. We're always one of the top defensive clubs, our goalies almost always have twice as many wins as losses (if not way more), our goalies always hover around the same SV% and GAA. So, if you're someone on the selection committee, you can't logically overlook the fact that Osgood did the exact same thing in Detroit that every other goalie was doing. Winning. They don't put people in the hall of fame for doing what's expected of them, people are in there for going above and beyond expectations (unless you have Crosby type expectations).

Mike Vernon, Manny Legace, Dominik Hasek are the other guys who have been 'the starter' in Detroit while Osgood was the backup. All of them have posted losing seasons elsewhere on weaker teams. Osgood has not. Osgood's worst season in terms of winning percentage was .545, earned during his injury-plagued 02-03 season when he posted the worst GAA and save percentage of his career. The thing about Osgood is that he has ALWAYS found a way to win games, and that is what makes a great goaltender.

You answered your own question. Cujo is in no way a guarantee for the hall of fame. He is a big MAYBE.

Ozzie has a much better resume than Cujo in terms of playoff performance and regular season awards. If he gets the same kind of wins numbers Cujo has, there is no maybe. Cujo is only a maybe because aside from 446 games, he has won NOTHING.

Also, sorry, I'm trying not to get personal. But that's an f'ing stupid thing to say, because (unlike Osgood) all of Hasek's truely great accomplishments were done with a team that wasn't even in contention for a presidents trophy. Sure, Osgood only has won 2, but he's come close 5-6 times because the Wings are always near the top of the standings. Buffalo? They were barely in contention for their devision crown. That kind of comparison hurts your argument. Sure, the 2002 team was one of the most stacked in NHL history (non-Montreal at least), but for the love of god, how many times must you people be reminded that Hasek's 2002 cup win was simply the cherry on top of a 20-layer cake. With or without the stacked teams Hasek played on he'd still be a hall of famer, one considered one of the all time best between the pipes. You can't say the same for Osgood. Please please please, don't reply unless you're going to say something new and intelligent, just let the thread die.

"I'm gonna come out and completely disagree with you, not really back up my side with much other than 'well, other guys who might be in the Hall of Fame did just as well! and then beg you not to reply."

If Cujo, Legacy, or Vernon played for us as long as Osgood they'd all be able to make that claim too.

Maybe. Ozzie started for five that qualify, plus one that was close. But, just to make you happy, we'll change the statement. Osgood is the ONLY goaltender in team history to start for the Wings in five or more seasons where the team's GAA was 2.5 or lower. Is that a better claim for you?

[omaratcho 0]

That was a whole lot of words, all run together. But what you're trying to say, I think, is that Hasek has amassed a HHOF-worthy set of credentials and Ozzie still has time to do the same, if Hasek will just get out of the way and let that happen?

Ozzie stands on his own merits, IMO. Hasek's not involved in Ozzie's eventual call to the Hall, or not, as the case might be.

That must be the new Ozzie helmet we heard about last season, that never saw the light of day. Too bad, it's kinda cool.

oh no that wasn't exactly what i was saying but you got the jist of it, sry i was half asleep when i wrote what. but i do think hasek should step down, not so osgood could show us his goaltending skills and get into the hall of fame, but because of how old and incapable he now is. everybody knows he's nothing like he used to be and i think it's pretty obvious that he's hurting the team. Osgood though i think definitely has hall of fame potential and possibly could get into the hall of fame if he had the chance to be put into the spotlight (maybe if hasek did indeed step down)

and i'm sry, wat does IMO mean? haha i'm kind of used to this.

[puckloo39 5,686]

oh no that wasn't exactly what i was saying but you got the jist of it, sry i was half asleep when i wrote what. but i do think hasek should step down, not so osgood could show us his goaltending skills and get into the hall of fame, but because of how old and incapable he now is. everybody knows he's nothing like he used to be and i think it's pretty obvious that he's hurting the team. Osgood though i think definitely has hall of fame potential and possibly could get into the hall of fame if he had the chance to be put into the spotlight (maybe if hasek did indeed step down)

and i'm sry, wat does IMO mean? haha i'm kind of used to this.

it stands for In My Opinion.

[omaratcho 0]

haha thx i appreciate it =], oh i meant to say *new* to this, but i guess u got that.

Edited November 14, 2007 by omaratcho

[HuntsVegas Baby 0]

He won't be in. He has some good stats, but he got them on stacked teams, and the HHOF isn't very stat-centric anyways.

And Grant Fuhr didn't play on stacked teams.

If Dom is in, Ozzie is in.

Grant Fuhr 403 Wins and 3.37 GAA

Ozzie 344 Wins and counting and 2.44 GAA

40-50 more wins and he is in!

[toby91_ca 620]

If Dom is in, Ozzie is in.

How does that make any sense at all?

[Offsides 21]

How does that make any sense at all?

Dom will sneak Ozzie in in his equipment bag

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

How does that make any sense at all?

I'm guessing he meant Fuhr, not Dom.

at least I hope so.

[puckloo39 5,686]

Dom will sneak Ozzie in in his equipment bag