Datsyuk sagging at Zetterberg's expense

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Who wants to mess with a good thing, right? I know, but despite how well Datsyuk is playing, its not good that he has only 2 goals in 16 games this season. I don't care if he racks up 90 assists, he's on pace for a 10 goal season.

Why is Datsyuk not the Center on that line and Zetterberg the Left Winger?

Not only are Datsyuk's goals way down, his faceoff win percentage is sagging as well. I'm inclined to believe that alot of that has to do with the fact that he's not taking as many faceoffs as a natural centerman should and therefore he's losing more than he's accustomed to.

Maybe i'm nuts but IMO Datsyuk is a better natural centerman and Zetterberg is a better natural winger. Watching Dats play left wing like its a centerman's position just doesn't look right to me. And his numbers are suffering because of it.

Don't get me wrong, Its alll good that Z is having a monster year. But IMO, we need both of these guys to be scoring. There's going to come a point, when we're 1/2 way through the season, if Dats has like 6-8 goals, that's not going to be good for anybody, no matter if Z has 100 goals by then.

(fingers crossed) that Babs would move Dats back to center and Z to the wing.

[eva unit zero 271]

You know how dominant the line was last season? That was with Z at center.

Dats may be more effective at center than he is at wing...but Z is the best player in the league, and he is far more effective at center than Dats is.

[redwingfan19 293]

I think it will be all good in the long run. Dats is shooting the puck tons more this year and they are eventually going to go in. He has hit the post on numerous occasions including last night, so eventually the pucks will start to bounce in his favor, I think he will still get his customary 25- 30 goals this season while pilling on a ton of assists.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

You know how dominant the line was last season? That was with Z at center.

Dats may be more effective at center than he is at wing...but Z is the best player in the league, and he is far more effective at center than Dats is.

Prove it.

Who is a better centerman? You say Zetterberg, I say Datsyuk.

Who is a better winger? I say without a doubt Zetterberg.

C Zetterberg

LW Datsyuk

=a very strong center with a less effective winger

C Datsyuk

LW Zetterberg

=a very strong center with a very strong winger

that's how I see it.

PS: Eva, please explain how Zetterberg is "far more effective center than Datsyuk is". Those are pretty strong words. "FAR MORE EFFECTIVE"

How so? What are the numbers that are so far more effective. And don't use this season's figures as Dats has been a winger this season. Use prior stats and show me how "far more effective" Zetterberg is over Datsyuk. You make it sound like Zetterberg outclasses Datsyuk easily.

Edited November 10, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[KrazyGangsta 79]

That's how it is ... someone is goal scorer someone is playmaker

[Cicada 4]

err.. we're 12-2-1..we've won 9 in a row. They are the most dominant line in the league. Does it REALLY matter who plays center and who plays wing?

[seeinred 1,488]

Who wants to mess with a good thing, right? I know, but despite how well Datsyuk is playing, its not good that he has only 2 goals in 16 games this season. I don't care if he racks up 90 assists, he's on pace for a 10 goal season.

Why is Datsyuk not the Center on that line and Zetterberg the Left Winger?

A 100 point season is a hundred point season. Whether it's 60/40 or 10/90, it's a hundred points.

And his numbers are suffering because of it.

No they're not, he's putting up a point a game. You've heard people say that an assist is just as important as a goal? It's 100% true.

Don't get me wrong, Its alll good that Z is having a monster year. But IMO, we need both of these guys to be scoring. There's going to come a point, when we're 1/2 way through the season, if Dats has like 6-8 goals, that's not going to be good for anybody, no matter if Z has 100 goals by then.

Do we? 9 game win streak. 1st in the league. If they're on the same line, I don't see the difference between Hank having all the goals and Pavs having all the assists and them evening out between the 2 of them.

[wingnut40 176]

That's how it is ... someone is goal scorer someone is playmaker

Yeah, last night durring the game Mickey said "I asked Datsyuk if he'd rather score a goal or set up a pretty one. He said he's rather set up a pretty one."

Apparently, Pav doesn't care how many goals he has, as long as someone on the team is scoring some.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

A 100 point season is a hundred point season. Whether it's 60/40 or 10/90, it's a hundred points.

No they're not, he's putting up a point a game. You've heard people say that an assist is just as important as a goal? It's 100% true.

Do we? 9 game win streak. 1st in the league. If they're on the same line, I don't see the difference between Hank having all the goals and Pavs having all the assists and them evening out between the 2 of them.

How about teams keying on Z as the goal scorer and Datsyuk's confidence suffering because he can't buy a goal?

You know how dominant the line was last season? That was with Z at center.

Dats may be more effective at center than he is at wing...but Z is the best player in the league, and he is far more effective at center than Dats is.

Historically, since they've been teammates

Zetterberg typically leads the two in

Goals

Shots taken

Datsyuk typically leads the two in

Assists

Points

+/-

Face Off Win Percentage

How is Zetterberg so "far more effective" than Datsyuk

[eva unit zero 271]

Prove it.

Who is a better centerman? You say Zetterberg, I say Datsyuk.

Zetterberg has centered Dats for most of the period from Dec 23 2006 until today. In that same period, he has been the best player in the NHL. In no period before that was Dats ever even close to the best center in the NHL, let alone best player.

Who is a better winger? I say without a doubt Zetterberg.

C Zetterberg

LW Datsyuk

=a very strong center with a less effective winger

C Datsyuk

LW Zetterberg

=a very strong center with a very strong winger

that's how I see it.

PS: Eva, please explain how Zetterberg is "far more effective center than Datsyuk is". Those are pretty strong words. "FAR MORE EFFECTIVE"

How so? What are the numbers that are so far more effective. And don't use this season's figures as Dats has been a winger this season. Use prior stats and show me how "far more effective" Zetterberg is over Datsyuk. You make it sound like Zetterberg outclasses Datsyuk easily.

Datsyuk's best numbers at center are less than 100 points in an 82 game season. Zetterberg's numbers since moving back to center last season have been on pace for a 140 point season. Z is also a better goal scorer and a better defensive player. It's really not even close. Dats is still putting up a point per game; it's not like he's turned into Kent Manderville...his scoring output is still there. It's just so far behind Z's that you don't realize he's still doing well.

Z is doing better now than Dats has EVER done at center. Z did better last season than Dats has ever done at center. Hell, Z plays better on the wing than Dats does at center.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Yeah, last night durring the game Mickey said "I asked Datsyuk if he'd rather score a goal or set up a pretty one. He said he's rather set up a pretty one."

Apparently, Pav doesn't care how many goals he has, as long as someone on the team is scoring some.

Thanks for all the imput people. I guess i'm alone on this. For whatever reason I just think its not good that Datsyuk isn't scoring and that IMO, he looks a little out of sorts on the Wing. Lets face it, he's not playing the Wing like a prototypcial winger would. He looks like he's trying to be a centerman over there and IMO, its affecting his game. All one needs to do is look at how far his faceoff win percentage has declined this season. Does anybody have an argument that his faceoff percentage declining is a good thing?

by the way, as for 100 pts being 100pts. That's true. But if you're telling me you'd rather have a 10 goal, 90 assist guy instead of a 50 goal, 50 assist guy, I think you're all fuggin' nuts.

You can never have enough guys putting pucks into the back of the net.

[toby91_ca 620]

Goal scorers generally play wing not centre, so I don't think Dats lack of scoring is because he's on wing.

I suspect that the coach feels Zetterberg is better defensively and that's why he is at centre when they play on the same line.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Zetterberg has centered Dats for most of the period from Dec 23 2006 until today. In that same period, he has been the best player in the NHL. In no period before that was Dats ever even close to the best center in the NHL, let alone best player.

Datsyuk's best numbers at center are less than 100 points in an 82 game season. Zetterberg's numbers since moving back to center last season have been on pace for a 140 point season. Z is also a better goal scorer and a better defensive player. It's really not even close. Dats is still putting up a point per game; it's not like he's turned into Kent Manderville...his scoring output is still there. It's just so far behind Z's that you don't realize he's still doing well.

Z is doing better now than Dats has EVER done at center. Z did better last season than Dats has ever done at center. Hell, Z plays better on the wing than Dats does at center.

Here we go again Eva. I bring up hard numbers. Stats that are proven to be true. Datsyuk, better +/-, better Faceoff win percentage.

And what do you counter with? Hypothetical statistics and projections of what Zetterber might do.

And you're right, as of today, this season, Z is playing better than Datsyuk has in past years at the center position.

I don't care what projections and what ifs you use. You misspoke when you said "far more effective". You just don't have the sack to admit you misspoke. Look at the career numbers at the center position. Take all of it into account and show me who has the better numbers, more takeaways, better faceoff percentage, better plus minus. Show me where Z is far more effective. Give me the hard numbers.

Wait, save the trouble. You and I already know what the REAL numbers show.

PS People, this is not a bag on Zetterberg parade. These are my two favorite players. I just think that Zetterberg is far more effective on the Wing and a better natural scorer for the wing position than Datsyuk. And for whatever greatness Z displays as a centerman, the drop off having Dats at center is too small to measure. So by flip flopping them you still maintain a strong centerman but you put a player who is better equipped to be a sniper on the wing when you move Z over.

Edited November 10, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[lets go pavel 2]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I recall broadcasters on more than one occasion saying that Babs doesn't care which of them plays center and which plays wing, and doesn't care who takes face offs ... he lets them decide. Now I don't know how true that is, but I have a hard time believing that either is unhappy or out-of-sorts playing with the other, regardless of where they are playing. The goals will come ...

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I recall broadcasters on more than one occasion saying that Babs doesn't care which of them plays center and which plays wing, and doesn't care who takes face offs ... he lets them decide. Now I don't know how true that is, but I have a hard time believing that either is unhappy or out-of-sorts playing with the other, regardless of where they are playing. The goals will come ...

I guess i'm just hoping some more of those goals come from Datsyuk. 16 games, 2 goals scored. Can anybody tell me that if I said those would be Dats' numbers prior to the season starting, that they'd be happy with that. That they'd be happy with his salary, that they would think that's good enough production from him? This is regardless of team record or what Zetterberg is doing. Can anybody honestly tell me that they would think those numbers look good or are what we should expect out of Pavel?

Nobody wants to see it but there's a coincidence here in why his faceoff numbers and goals are down. And it has everything to do with him being less comfortable on the wing than he is at center.

[eva unit zero 271]

Here we go again Eva. I bring up hard numbers. Stats that are proven to be true. Datsyuk, better +/-, better Faceoff win percentage.

And what do you counter with? Hypothetical statistics and projections of what Zetterber might do.

And you're right, as of today, this season, Z is playing better than Datsyuk has in past years at the center position.

I don't care what projections and what ifs you use. You misspoke when you said "far more effective". You just don't have the sack to admit you misspoke. Look at the career numbers at the center position. Take all of it into account and show me who has the better numbers, more takeaways, better faceoff percentage, better plus minus. Show me where Z is far more effective. Give me the hard numbers.

Datsyuk's best year as a center:

87 points in 75 games.

Zetterberg has 26 points in 16 games, which projects to 130 points over 80 games. It's the same pace he scored at for the time he was at center last season.

That's FAR more effective. Unless Dats is capable of scoring 43 points in his next five games at center...

[lets go pavel 2]

last year after 16 games Pavel had 3 goals and 9 assists ... this year he has 2 goals and 14 assists ... i think he'll be fine

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

As a team right now, we're not having any trouble scoring goals, so I'm O.K. with his production. However, if the team goes into a scoring slump, then his numbers will be a problem. I know that goes along with hindsight being 20/20, but that's just the way it is. I haven't watched all the games, so I don't know if he's shooting less than before, or whether it's just one of those hard luck things.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

datsyuk is shooting percentage is 3.5. that's nearly 5 times lower than usual, and he's shooting the puck more than he ever has. he has fewer goals than the top 55 point getters this year so far. it's obvious the guy is hurting for confidence. and whoever said dats plays the wing like a center is exactly right. dats is a playmaker, that suits him best. skating around and trying to find the open ice and looking for the big one timer isn't his gig. that may have something to do with it.

as for z being far more effective, datsyuk is a huge reason z is scoring like this. not to take anything away from zetterberg, but his incredible start this year has also been a lot of luck. he will slow down. but dats is huge getting the puck in the zone/ keeping it there/ creating giveaways for the other team. he's just not getting the points right now. ever thing z does is going in right now. every setup seems to result in a goal, etc. dats has plenty of beautiful setups that that aren't turning into goals.

anyway, i'd love to see dats scoring more, and he probably would at center, but really, why mess with this. you have two wingers at a point per game and a center that is tearing up the league. imo, keep it until it stops working. if dats points are suffering as a result, that's really okay, the team's playing great right now.

not to say i wouldn't like datsyuk to be having the kind of year z is, but i just don't see the need to mess with something working so well.

last year after 16 games Pavel had 3 goals and 9 assists ... this year he has 2 goals and 14 assists ... i think he'll be fine

that's a good point and like somebody else said, it's not like he's having a bad year, it just looks that way when you compare it to z's production right now.

[lets go pavel 2]

Datsyuk's best year as a center:

87 points in 75 games.

Zetterberg has 26 points in 16 games, which projects to 130 points over 80 games. It's the same pace he scored at for the time he was at center last season.

That's FAR more effective. Unless Dats is capable of scoring 43 points in his next five games at center...

i don't think you can compare their individual stats at center unless they were playing with the same wingers ... much of Z's stats at center come with Pavel on wing ... Pavel doesn't have Pavel on wing ... and vice versa ... i think the only real way to compare their play at center statistically would be to look at the DZH line with Pavel at center vs. the DZH line with Hank at center and see which is more productive ...not sure if that's possible, but it seems to be the real question anyway ...

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

Datsyuk's best year as a center:

87 points in 75 games.

Zetterberg has 26 points in 16 games, which projects to 130 points over 80 games. It's the same pace he scored at for the time he was at center last season.

That's FAR more effective. Unless Dats is capable of scoring 43 points in his next five games at center...

there also hasn't been a game when z didn't get a point. you think he'll get a point in all 82 games? my point is that it's a little early to be thinking end of the year production, don't you think. if he ends up with 130 points, that'd be awesome, but i highly doubt it. not to long ago he was looking at 160 some points for the season. that's a 30 point swing in a few games. it's just way to early to be predicting what z will end up with, especially when you're using these stats in an argument.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Datsyuk's best year as a center:

87 points in 75 games.

Zetterberg has 26 points in 16 games, which projects to 130 points over 80 games. It's the same pace he scored at for the time he was at center last season.

That's FAR more effective. Unless Dats is capable of scoring 43 points in his next five games at center...

Projections mean absolutely nothing to me. Try again.

there also hasn't been a game when z didn't get a point. you think he'll get a point in all 82 games? my point is that it's a little early to be thinking end of the year production, don't you think. if he ends up with 130 points, that'd be awesome, but i highly doubt it. not to long ago he was looking at 160 some points for the season. that's a 30 point swing in a few games. it's just way to early to be predicting what z will end up with, especially when you're using these stats in an argument.

Somebody who doesn't buy into Eva's projection arguments. Thank god.

Didn't Comrie score a hat trick opening night? Wouldn't that project out to 246 goals this year? I'll never understand why Eva insists on using projections as if they were a solid foundation.

[T.Low 1,011]

Thanks for all the imput people. I guess i'm alone on this. For whatever reason I just think its not good that Datsyuk isn't scoring and that IMO, he looks a little out of sorts on the Wing. Lets face it, he's not playing the Wing like a prototypcial winger would. He looks like he's trying to be a centerman over there and IMO, its affecting his game. All one needs to do is look at how far his faceoff win percentage has declined this season. Does anybody have an argument that his faceoff percentage declining is a good thing?

by the way, as for 100 pts being 100pts. That's true. But if you're telling me you'd rather have a 10 goal, 90 assist guy instead of a 50 goal, 50 assist guy, I think you're all fuggin' nuts.

You can never have enough guys putting pucks into the back of the net.

I don't think I can give you the analytical commentary on the positional play pros and cons. But the mathmatical observation of the matter is that any given line will yield X amount of production. While emotionally, it may look more satisfying to have the three line mates all near 50/50 production (a la the Ottawa Sens), that may actually yield less overall production than if one position yields a 10/90 ratio. In this case, it appears that optimal production currently is with Dats doing a lot of the set up work with Z being the closer, and Holmer the cleanup. I understand the envy of Ottawa's situation, but this is the way it is currently working for the Wings, and yes, it will fluxuate thru the season.

My simple explanation (not that its a simple question, rather I'm a simple guy with only simple answers) is that Dats is still drawing a crowd (bercause he is so amazing with the puck) and that creates space for Z and Holmer.

Good question. Would make a great PhD thesis.

Edited November 10, 2007 by T.Low

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I don't think he's having a "bad" year per say.

Let me ask it again.

Prior to the season starting, if somebody told you Datsyuk would have 2 goals through 16 games, what would you say?

And people are picking and choosing the numbers they want to use hear. Sure, a point a game is great. Dats has done the point a game thing before. What he's not doing this season is winning faceoffs and scoring goals. No projections or spin job can alter those facts.

I think he's having confidence issues as far as bagging goals is concerned, no matter what "good teammate" comments he makes post game about scoring or setting up goals. And even if he isn't having issues, nobody can tell me that he won't have issues if this continues and furthermore, nobody can tell me that they think it'll be hunky dory if Datsyuk doesn't pick up the goal scoring. Zetterberg cannot score all our goals. If projections can tell us anything, historically, is that they aren't worth the paper you wipe your ass with. Zetterberg's production will slow down eventually. If you want to use projections (EVA), then project how many games he'll miss at some point this season. He misses games every year. And we all better goddamn hope that Datsyuk isn't struggling and regains his form in the faceoff circle when and if that time comes.

Edited November 10, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[seeinred 1,488]

Projections mean absolutely nothing to me. Try again.

Somebody who doesn't buy into Eva's projection arguments. Thank god.

Didn't Comrie score a hat trick opening night? Wouldn't that project out to 246 goals this year? I'll never understand why Eva insists on using projections as if they were a solid foundation.

These projections aren't based on 1 game... They're based on 16 this year, and several last year. That's the way these things work. It's like a poll that samples 3 people vs. one that samples 100,000. So after 50 games you're going to say, "these stats mean nothing to me, we're only projecting.?

Prior to the season starting, if somebody told you Datsyuk would have 2 goals through 16 games, what would you say?

If they said he'd be putting up a point a game, I'd say, "that's awesome." And since that's what he's doing, I'm going to go ahead and say, "that's awesome."