64 replies to this topic

[eva unit zero]

Yes, but if we start throwing junior stats in there, discussions for a lot of players would change.

Yeah, but otherwise i have to say something along the lines of 'Kutch you are a moron Ozzie only scored one goal but he still roxxorz to the maxxorz!' and that would just get messy.

[toby91_ca]

Mats Sundin - No (for accomplishing what exactly ??)

Let's start with this:

- 500+ goals
- Close to 1,300 pts
- More than a point per game over his career
- 9 time NHL Allstar
- Longest serving Euro captain in NHL history
- Holds NHL record for most consecutive 70+ pt seasons
- Leafs all-time leader in goals and points (yes, this means something)
- 3 World Championships
- 1 Olympic Gold Medal
- Named best forward at 1992 World Championships
- Canada Cup Allstar team - 1991
- World Cup Allstar team - 1996
- Olympic Allstar team - 2002

[DEVILSWATERBOY]

Sundin Yes

Forskin yes

Roenick yes

Madano yes

Shanahan yes

Federov yes

Osgood maybe depends on the rest of his career

the rest of them no

[interminded]

Let's start with this:

- 500+ goals
- Close to 1,300 pts
- More than a point per game over his career
- 9 time NHL Allstar
- Longest serving Euro captain in NHL history
- Holds NHL record for most consecutive 70+ pt seasons
- Leafs all-time leader in goals and points (yes, this means something)
- 3 World Championships
- 1 Olympic Gold Medal
- Named best forward at 1992 World Championships
- Canada Cup Allstar team - 1991
- World Cup Allstar team - 1996
- Olympic Allstar team - 2002

Those are nice accomplishments, but nothing HOF-worthy, imo.
There are a lot of players who have similar stats, but are still not in the Hall.

Sundin has no Stanley Cup, hasn't appeared in a Stanley Cup final even and has not one a single individual award.

[FinRedWing]

Teemu Selanne - No

Scoring 76 +56= 132 as a rookie,a record that might never be broken.
Popular,has a Cup now .
He's in.

[toby91_ca]

Those are nice accomplishments, but nothing HOF-worthy, imo.
There are a lot of players who have similar stats, but are still not in the Hall.

Since there are "a lot" who have similar stats, but not in the hall, could you provide one example at least?

[eva unit zero]

Those are nice accomplishments, but nothing HOF-worthy, imo.
There are a lot of players who have similar stats, but are still not in the Hall.

Sundin has no Stanley Cup, hasn't appeared in a Stanley Cup final even and has not one a single individual award.

Of players in the top 50 in scoring, the following is a list of players who have scored better than a point per game, plus others below that mark who are mentioned in this thread:
Joe Sakic, 1.20 - LOCK
Steve Yzerman 1.16 - LOCK
Brett Hull 1.10 - LOCK
Teemu Selanne 1.09 - Excellent scorer, classy player. Should get in.
Bernie Nicholls 1.07 - Should get in, but probably won't.
Adam Oates 1.06 - Perhaps the best playmaker not named Gretzky; Should get in.
Pierre Turgeon 1.03 - Too one dimensional, was never an 'elite' center. Won't get in.
Mats Sundin 1.01 - Among the best centers for a decade, dominant offense and responsible defense. Should get in.
Mark Recchi 1.00 - Quietly one of the most effective scoring machines of the past 20 years.
Mike Modano 0.99 - Highest scoring American ever; he's a lock just for that.
Jeremy Roenick 0.93 - 500 goals, 1200 points, but rarely was he a 'top' player.
Brendan Shanahan 0.91 - 600+ goals, most dominating PF of his time. Should get in.
How one could say no to Sundin and yes to Peter Forsberg and Rod Brind'Amour is baffling.

[FinRedWing]

Since there are "a lot" who have similar stats, but not in the hall, could you provide one example at least?

I really want to see who Interminded comes up with.

- Longest serving Euro captain in NHL history
- Holds NHL record for most consecutive 70+ pt seasons
- Leafs all-time leader in goals and points (yes, this means something)

Starting with these...

[Kutcher]

Yeah, but otherwise i have to say something along the lines of 'Kutch you are a moron Ozzie only scored one goal but he still roxxorz to the maxxorz!' and that would just get messy.

had to make my picks somewhat controversial. Still how many goalies have even a single goal...? Ozz should get in on that alone.

[toby91_ca]

had to make my picks somewhat controversial. Still how many goalies have even a single goal...? Ozz should get in on that alone.

Your are correct in that the list of goalies that have scored a goal in the NHL is not very long.....however, scoring a goal does nothing for me in terms of making a case for the HOF.

[Kutcher]

Your are correct in that the list of goalies that have scored a goal in the NHL is not very long.....however, scoring a goal does nothing for me in terms of making a case for the HOF.

To each their own I guess, I just respect those who do something not many others have accomplished and think they should be recognized for that, also his numbers are pretty solid.

[RedWings Gone Wild]

Of players in the top 50 in scoring, the following is a list of players who have scored better than a point per game, plus others below that mark who are mentioned in this thread:
Joe Sakic, 1.20 - LOCK
Steve Yzerman 1.16 - LOCK
Brett Hull 1.10 - LOCK
Teemu Selanne 1.09 - Excellent scorer, classy player. Should get in.
Bernie Nicholls 1.07 - Should get in, but probably won't.
Adam Oates 1.06 - Perhaps the best playmaker not named Gretzky; Should get in.
Pierre Turgeon 1.03 - Too one dimensional, was never an 'elite' center. Won't get in.
Mats Sundin 1.01 - Among the best centers for a decade, dominant offense and responsible defense. Should get in.
Mark Recchi 1.00 - Quietly one of the most effective scoring machines of the past 20 years.
Mike Modano 0.99 - Highest scoring American ever; he's a lock just for that.
Jeremy Roenick 0.93 - 500 goals, 1200 points, but rarely was he a 'top' player.
Brendan Shanahan 0.91 - 600+ goals, most dominating PF of his time. Should get in.
How one could say no to Sundin and yes to Peter Forsberg and Rod Brind'Amour is baffling.

Don't bother discussing Shanahan, he's in. Done. No debate. Forsberg was one of the top reasons Colorado was one of the top teams in the league for so long and won 2 cups, plus Forsberg has also been one of Sweden's top guys for a while now too. He was Sakic's Federov. Regardless of whether or not he ever plays again, Forsberg is a hall of famer. Sundin will probably be in too, being the top scorer in leafs history is enough by itself to get him in (not to mention he still has some years left in him). And you forgot Jagr, who's a lock for the hall of fame, he's well above a point-per and could very well finish his career with more points than Yzerman.

The thing is, you can't take these things as purely statistical. You have to facor a players image within the game, his marketablity, how important he is to a franchise, etc... you can't just say "How many points/cups wins/records?" Guys like Sundin and Modano have a step up on their competition because of their long tenures with their teams. Is that fair? I don't know (don't much care either), but it's the truth.

[interminded]

Since there are "a lot" who have similar stats, but not in the hall, could you provide one example at least?

By stats I mean: having around 1000 points, being a top-player for many years, not winning a cup / individual award and not being selected / considered into the hall.
For example, Pierre Turgeon, Dino Ciccarelli, Pavel Bure, Theoren Fleury, Adam Oates.

[toby91_ca]

By stats I mean: having around 1000 points, being a top-player for many years, not winning a cup / individual award and not being selected / considered into the hall.
For example, Pierre Turgeon, Dino Ciccarelli, Pavel Bure, Theoren Fleury, Adam Oates.

Okay, your examples:

Turgeon - he's still playing....bad example
Dino - he's been snubbed for obvious reasons....bad example
Bure - Sundin has almost 500 more points....bad example
Fleury - Sundin has significantly more points and a better ppg...bad example
Oates - he didn't get in his first chance...he was up against Messier, Francis, Stevens and McInnis....bad example

Also, not of them have the resume that Sundin has beyond goals and assists. Did you read the other reasons I mentioned, or did you ignore them as not mattering too much?

[interminded]

Okay, your examples:

Turgeon - he's still playing....bad example
Dino - he's been snubbed for obvious reasons....bad example
Bure - Sundin has almost 500 more points....bad example
Fleury - Sundin has significantly more points and a better ppg...bad example
Oates - he didn't get in his first chance...he was up against Messier, Francis, Stevens and McInnis....bad example

Also, not of them have the resume that Sundin has beyond goals and assists. Did you read the other reasons I mentioned, or did you ignore them as not mattering too much?

Turgeon (he isn't playing anymore) : 1301 points.
Bure: 2 Rocket Richard awards, 1 Calder, 3rd in NHL history in goals per game average
Fleury: 1 Stanley Cup, 1 Calder, Averaged over a point a game over 1000+ games
Dino: is not a bad example... he should have gotten in.
Oates: 1000 assists, 1400 points... he should have another shot at it.

And if the international achievements do count as heavily as NHL merrits, then why aren't Boris Mikhailov or Sergei Makarov in the HHOF ?


But let's face it.
You have another opinion on some players as I have, which is cool.

[interminded]

Okay, your examples:

Turgeon - he's still playing....bad example
Dino - he's been snubbed for obvious reasons....bad example
Bure - Sundin has almost 500 more points....bad example
Fleury - Sundin has significantly more points and a better ppg...bad example
Oates - he didn't get in his first chance...he was up against Messier, Francis, Stevens and McInnis....bad example

Also, not of them have the resume that Sundin has beyond goals and assists. Did you read the other reasons I mentioned, or did you ignore them as not mattering too much?

Turgeon (he isn't playing anymore) : 1301 points.
Bure: 2 Rocket Richard awards, 1 Calder, 3rd in NHL history in goals per game average
Fleury: 1 Stanley Cup, 1 Calder, Averaged over a point a game over 1000+ games
Dino: is not a bad example... he should have gotten in.
Oates: 1000 assists, 1400 points... he should have another shot at it.

And if the international achievements do count as heavily as NHL merrits, then why aren't Boris Mikhailov or Sergei Makarov in the HHOF ?


But let's face it.
You have another opinion on some players as I have, which is cool.

{DOUBLE POST..... SORRY ABOUT THAT}

Edited by interminded, 19 November 2007 - 02:11 PM.

[toby91_ca]

Turgeon (he isn't playing anymore) : 1301 points.
Bure: 2 Rocket Richard awards, 1 Calder, 3rd in NHL history in goals per game average
Fleury: 1 Stanley Cup, 1 Calder, Averaged over a point a game over 1000+ games
Dino: is not a bad example... he should have gotten in.
Oates: 1000 assists, 1400 points... he should have another shot at it.

And if the international achievements do count as heavily as NHL merrits, then why aren't Boris Mikhailov or Sergei Makarov in the HHOF ?
But let's face it.
You have another opinion on some players as I have, which is cool.

{DOUBLE POST..... SORRY ABOUT THAT}

You still don't explain how your examples mean anything.

Turgeon - sorry, he's not playing anymore, but he's not eligible to get into the HOF for another 3 years, so if he doesn't get in 3 years from now, bring him up as an example as to why Sundin shouldn't get in and then we can debate some more.

Bure - chalk this up as another Lindros example. Bure was great when he was healthy, but he wasn't healthy long enough. I don't see how someone who has 500pts less than Sundin is a good statistical comparison.

Fleury - good stats, but not comparable to Sundin's. Fleury did not win the Calder....where is that info coming from?

Dino - how is this not a bad example? You are describing him as someone who should have gotten in. I think your argument was that Sundin shouldn't get in....not why he should, but won't. Also, Dino isn't in for very specific reasons that do not apply to Sundin.

Oates - he'll get in, so I don't see how he is a good example.

I can buy the fact that some people have different opinions on different players, I am just confused as hell why you would leave Sundin out, but think Forsberg and Brind'Amour should be in....makes no sense to me.

[Spongewingredpants]

as always, I have to go with my top three

1. The Boyd
2. Uwe Krupp
3. andy Delmore

[interminded]

I can buy the fact that some people have different opinions on different players, I am just confused as hell why you would leave Sundin out, but think Forsberg and Brind'Amour should be in....makes no sense to me.

Lead your team to win a Stanley Cup / Win individual awards.
Forsberg and Brind"Amour did that.
Sundin didn't. (yet)

[toby91_ca]

Lead your team to win a Stanley Cup / Win individual awards.
Forsberg and Brind"Amour did that.
Sundin didn't. (yet)

I think you place far too much emphasis on winning a cup in terms of HOF worthiness, but I understand that is my opinion, which you do not necessarily agree with. I think winning a cup is more of a team thing.....which Forsberg had a few HOFers helping him with his winning and Brind'Amour, well, it's not exactly like did it on his own either.

Did Ray Bourque all of a sudden boost his legacy when he went to Colorado and won the cup?