Euro-Problems

[cjeder 0]

ESPNs recap of last nights game against Nashville is telling. The commentator (not sure who but I think it was a guest) mocks Kopecky and Fillpula with a drunken tone, reading their names like they are just words on a script, with no person, no story behind them. At first I thought it unfair, but is it? For a sport that strains to know where Moose Factory, ON is, imagining a kid in a backyard rink in Vantaa or Ilava just seems too much to ask.

People have floated plenty of options to explain the Wing's attendance problem. The economy, competition from other teams, the departure of Yzerman. To throw some fuel on the fire I thought I'd see what you all think about another option, people in Detroit do not relate well to Europeans. In a land that prides itself the idea that domestic production is a virtue, a team based on the premise that 4th round picks from halfway across the globe can compete against the best thing North America can offer doesn't seem like a good fit.

Few can doubt that Zetterberg and Datsyuk are doing a great job filling the shoes of Shannahan and Yzerman when it comes to the scorecard. But when it comes to filling the seats, are they just to foreign for people to relate to?

[toby91_ca 620]

This isn't a new idea, I think we discussed the lack of being able to relate to Euros a couple months ago.

[Opie 308]

Of course it hurts look how many people on here want French-Canadian players, I am not saying when people say oh so and so would be great he is a good scorer or defenseman.

I mean I have seen people on here type that he wings should get a guy because he is French-Canadian or North American. I have even heard people say they want the team to get a North American. Not mentioning a name, just ethnicity/background.

If that is the way it is on a Wing's fan board it can only be worse in the overall picture.

[WhiteLightning91 105]

Sounded like Kenny Mayne completely drunk out of his mind. What was with the other guy laughing in the background?

[StormJH1 231]

This topic has been discussed, but it doesn't get discussed as much as the other factors because it's a sensitive subject. Ken Holland was asked about the team's "Europeanness" being a factor, and he said that it "may be the case," but he thought that the fans being spoiled by high-profile names in the pre-salary cap era was a bigger factor.

Look, it's not accurate to make a flat statement that the Wings are suffering because Detroiters don't find European players as appealing. Look no further than Sergei Fedorov in the 90's to determine that it isn't true. Part of Fedorov's appeal and marketability was that he WAS different and exotic.

Still, Fedorov was quoted as saying that if his name was "Sam Jones", people would look at his numbers and have no question that he's a superstar. While this comment revealed some of the arrogance about Sergei that Detroit fans didn't appreciate (coupled with the 1998 contract dispute), it's really hard to disagree with that. If you don't believe me, answer this question: Should Sergei's #91 be retired on the Red Wings? Sergei is the 4th all-time Red Wings scorer, and his PPG average (over 1) destroys Brendan Shanahan's (0.88), but you'll find as many or more people who think that Shanahan is more worthy of that honor than Fedorov.

I agree more with Holland's take, but I do think that a team with European leadership (and leaders without a whole lot of charisma, at that, when you look at guys like Datsyuk and Lidstrom) will suffer to some degree. When things are going well, as with Sergei, the European thing doesn't seem to matter. But the second a European struggles, or displays stubbornness of any kind, the U.S. will turn on that player much quicker than they would with a North American. The attitudes on this board towards Fedorov, and more recently, toward Grigorenko, a car accident victim who became public enemy #1 before ever pulling on a Wings jersey b/c of his stance on the "pay my contract/return to Russia" deal, are evidence of that fact.

[auxlepli 17]

I think it hurts. When this was brought up a month or two ago I said the same thing. I don't agree with that prejudice, but I know some people who feel that way.

[bruisebrother15 29]

Nobody seemed to mind when the Russian Five was playing. Plus Lidstrom, Holmstrom, Sandstrom, Erikkson were all on the team around that time and the Joe was always filled. I guess having Yzerman and Bowman around helped at this time but they still had a lot of European players.

I think that a poor economy, not lowering ticket prices after cutting the payroll in half, everyone having big screen high def T.V.'s, and the Wings no longer being the only hot ticket in town have more to do with it.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

ESPNs recap of last nights game against Nashville is telling. The commentator (not sure who but I think it was a guest) mocks Kopecky and Fillpula with a drunken tone, reading their names like they are just words on a script, with no person, no story behind them. At first I thought it unfair, but is it? For a sport that strains to know where Moose Factory, ON is, imagining a kid in a backyard rink in Vantaa or Ilava just seems too much to ask.

People have floated plenty of options to explain the Wing's attendance problem. The economy, competition from other teams, the departure of Yzerman. To throw some fuel on the fire I thought I'd see what you all think about another option, people in Detroit do not relate well to Europeans. In a land that prides itself the idea that domestic production is a virtue, a team based on the premise that 4th round picks from halfway across the globe can compete against the best thing North America can offer doesn't seem like a good fit.

Few can doubt that Zetterberg and Datsyuk are doing a great job filling the shoes of Shannahan and Yzerman when it comes to the scorecard. But when it comes to filling the seats, are they just to foreign for people to relate to?

I'm not from Detroit so I don't know how people there relate to Europeans. All I know is that the NHL has done everything in its power to make the schedule as unpalatable as possible for fans. When we don't get the Rangers, Maple Leafs and Canadians into the building and instead have extra games against St.Louis and Chicago, its no surprise nobody shows up.

Oh yeah, and thanks to George and his moronic friends the country is in a shambles right now. The Fed lowered interest rates again. Yeah! Maybe some people can keep their houses from getting foreclosed on now during the Holiday season!

Don't buy into anything that says people are spending more during the Holidays this year. Nope, people are leveraging more. They're charging more. And unfortunately, hockey tickets are going to be some of the first things to go.

Bottom line, Wings have been too good for too long. Its become all about the playoffs and exorbitant season tickets vs crap teams isn't going to make people flock to the arena. Especially with the way things are economically in this country.

Well, that's all for me. Gordie is off to donate blood so he can fill his tank up with gas.

[Jwo 7]

ESPNs recap of last nights game against Nashville is telling. The commentator (not sure who but I think it was a guest) mocks Kopecky and Fillpula with a drunken tone, reading their names like they are just words on a script, with no person, no story behind them. At first I thought it unfair, but is it? For a sport that strains to know where Moose Factory, ON is, imagining a kid in a backyard rink in Vantaa or Ilava just seems too much to ask.

People have floated plenty of options to explain the Wing's attendance problem. The economy, competition from other teams, the departure of Yzerman. To throw some fuel on the fire I thought I'd see what you all think about another option, people in Detroit do not relate well to Europeans. In a land that prides itself the idea that domestic production is a virtue, a team based on the premise that 4th round picks from halfway across the globe can compete against the best thing North America can offer doesn't seem like a good fit.

Few can doubt that Zetterberg and Datsyuk are doing a great job filling the shoes of Shannahan and Yzerman when it comes to the scorecard. But when it comes to filling the seats, are they just to foreign for people to relate to?

What about Canadians? A lot of people can't relate to them since they have a different culture than us Americans.

Edited December 11, 2007 by Jwo

[Gordie Howe hat trick 110]

Personaly I think that if you are good, you should play Euro or not. I think the problem that ESPN really has is the fact that it's hockey. But then again I may be biased as I think Czechs make some damn good players.

[lfd250 1]

Hockey has never been an "American Sport" it started out with mostly canadian players and then spread. I'm not sure why people don't like the European players, but to say they don't like them because they're not from America is wrong. The more popular Tigers aren't from the USA either. Let's face it, growing up hockey was "the rich mans sport" I think many people still believe this. Also people who follow basket ball can watch the players from college through the pro's. So they too have a following there. People are over reacting on this attendence thing. Think about a family of four, $88 for upper bowl seat, $5-20 for parking, Pizza $12.50, pops $14 (4 20oz), $20 gas, $40 (2)souviners, leaving after the 2nd peroid. Priceless. So what that's $180 on the low end. Sundays 5pm start was the fullest I've seen the joe. Lots of kids, why, didn't have to rush home for school the next day. Detroit is a blue collar city and unforunitly it's down. I don't even think Stevie Y could bring them in. The hockey fans are out there, just can't afford it, plus I'm sure ice rental for their kids is up, price of gear is up, and the nights the wings play they might have a game. Attenedence is down, no real reason. But just think if they win the cup you might have a chance to buy tickets when years ago you didn't.

[Stevie Y 0]

I don't know how it is in Detroit but I can tell you that we have same thing in Europe with soccer. When teams get stacked with too many stars from abroad the local fans have a harder time to identify themselves with the team. This is especially true if the team isn't playing too wel...

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

What about Canadians? A lot of people can't relate to them since they have a different culture than us Americans.

I'm not sure where you're going with this. How different do you think it is? In terms of day to day lifestyles there is not much of a difference. Obviously it depends on your location but the difference is still marginal.

You're not one of those people who think all Canadians live in igloos are you?

[auxlepli 17]

Sounded like Kenny Mayne completely drunk out of his mind. What was with the other guy laughing in the background?

Just watched the ESPN highlight real. I'm torn part of me thinks it's funny, part of me doesn't. That's definitely Mayne though and somebody unknown to me. They reminded me of Beavis and Butt-head. If they want to relate to a 15-year-old cartoon fine, personally I prefer if they played it straight. I know being funny and edgy is part of ESPN's gimmick, but it's also off putting too. Many ESPN talking heads annoy me. Berman sounds as if he has tourette syndrome, Jackson's gig seems to be just to laugh at Berman, Scott's phrases are now passe, and there many more I can't recall right now.

[akustyk 84]

For a sport that strains to know where Moose Factory, ON is, imagining a kid in a backyard rink in Vantaa or Ilava just seems too much to ask.

that would be a veeery bold statement. do you by chance realize that there are most likely more people playing hockey in just the single town of Vantaa than in whole US south of Pittsburgh?

and what actually justifies a thesis that this sports is only about North America? a knowledgable hockey fan should be IMHO aware the world doesn't end at the Atlantic Ocean.

as for the main question - I think this could be the factor but barring some very anti-Euro sentiments in Detroit I really don't see it being an issue. people come to games to see the team and to watch hockey in general. state Michigan loved Fedorov as much as Yzerman or Hasek or Vladdy. not for their mothertongue

You're not one of those people who think all Canadians live in igloos are you?

are you trying to say that you guys north of the border finally managed to chop trees and use them to build some nice huts?

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

The alternative to Europeans on this team would have been some lean years in which Detroit was not a real contender for the cup. Using low draft picks to select high talent from Europe has kept us as a top contender for the cup without ever having to have bad seasons in order to draft high north american talent. I'm pretty happy about it to be honest.

[cjeder 0]

Obviously the attendance problems in Detroit cannot be explained by any sinlge factor, but the economic analysis by itself is still strained. Even when the economy in Detroit was doing well the Wings were too expensive for most to afford. Moreover the other three teams in Detroit are not having the same troubles. A better way to look at the issue is whether the product the wings are selling is better than that of the Pistons, Lions or Tigers

My thoughts are not necessarily that a team of Europeans can't succeed in Detroit because of racial bias, they clearly have in the past, but simply that the story behind the European product doesn't really jive with the Detroit market.

People will pay 700 bucks a ticket to go see Crosby play in Edmunton, they will pack the house to see two of the Staal brothers play together. To someone unfamilar with Datsyuk and Zetterberg, Euro-twin action sounds more like porn than hockey.

lfd250 metioned "Blue Collar" sells in Detroit, my point is that convincing someone that Franzen grew up working class in Sweden is considerably more difficult than convincing that someone [else] did the same in Ontario. I don't doubt that there are plenty of working class in Europe, nor do I doubt European dedication to hockey, I am just saying its a hard sell

Edited December 11, 2007 by cjeder

[cjeder 0]

The alternative to Europeans on this team would have been some lean years in which Detroit was not a real contender for the cup. Using low draft picks to select high talent from Europe has kept us as a top contender for the cup without ever having to have bad seasons in order to draft high north american talent. I'm pretty happy about it to be honest.

This brings up a good point. One of the arguments against the new CBA was that it would harm Hockey in it top, and most competitive markets. While it hasn't harmed the ability to go find great talent and field a winning team, it has certainly hurt our ability to sign players that sell well in Detroit.

[Jwo 7]

I'm not sure where you're going with this. How different do you think it is? In terms of day to day lifestyles there is not much of a difference. Obviously it depends on your location but the difference is still marginal.

You're not one of those people who think all Canadians live in igloos are you?

Canadians are more tune in with Europe than Americans.

hehe no I know Canadians don't live in igloos. Canadians

[Cicada 4]

i would say that the new CBA including the schedule changes, the cap, the euro draft rule has harmed the Wings more than ANY other team in the NHL.

i'm fed up with Bettman using us to buck up the western franshises, we need the NHL to start helping US now, and whats the betting they'll do a big load of f*** all.

[lfd250 1]

I'm not sure where you're going with this. How different do you think it is? In terms of day to day lifestyles there is not much of a difference. Obviously it depends on your location but the difference is still marginal.

You're not one of those people who think all Canadians live in igloos are you?

They don't? Damn lost another bet. Us middle people are just a head of you Canadians and a little behind the southerners. You guys end with eh, and the southerners end with ya'll so we're like the middle child that nobody knows their name. That's why hockey is great in Canada and Nashville.

[SweWings 45]

Detroit's been my fave team for 15 years now and I'm not gonna lie: I probably cheer a little extra when a Swede scores. Having some dominating Swedes on the team is a LOT of fun. But I'd definitely still cheer for Detroit even if Lidström and Zetts weren't on the team.

But yeah, it's easier for me to identify with the Swedes than it is with, I don't know...Downey...I tried most of the other names but I can't help it - I love everyone on our team...even Sammy. And it's great to see a kid even a little shorter than me make it in the NHL; Hudler.

But I have to say that personality-wise the players on our team are a bit vanilla. It'd be fun to have a player with more attitude - doesn't have to be a NA player, just look at Ovie.

[lfd250 1]

For those who think it's a player problem or other then a money problem, this is from my home town paper an hour north of Detroit.

http://www.thetimesherald.com/apps/pbcs.dl...NEWS05/71211017

[puckloo39 5,686]

Euro-problem, dollar problem, "loonie"-problem. It might boil down to economics, no matter what the currency.

ldf250, your link/story made me very sad. But I am not surprised, I guess. Everything is being affected by money crunch (the markets took another huge hit today) and people just can't afford to pay and play anymore like they used to. At least I know that's the case for me. I've had to give up my passion for travel, it's just unaffordable now.

I love all our Swedes (even Lilja, hah!) and everyone else on the team. I adored Stevie Y and Shanny and all the Russians, but they are not why I watched the Wings. If anything, people should be turning to the Wings just to see Zata and Datsyuk work their magic.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

ESPNs recap of last nights game against Nashville is telling. The commentator (not sure who but I think it was a guest) mocks Kopecky and Fillpula with a drunken tone, reading their names like they are just words on a script, with no person, no story behind them. At first I thought it unfair, but is it? For a sport that strains to know where Moose Factory, ON is, imagining a kid in a backyard rink in Vantaa or Ilava just seems too much to ask.

People have floated plenty of options to explain the Wing's attendance problem. The economy, competition from other teams, the departure of Yzerman. To throw some fuel on the fire I thought I'd see what you all think about another option, people in Detroit do not relate well to Europeans. In a land that prides itself the idea that domestic production is a virtue, a team based on the premise that 4th round picks from halfway across the globe can compete against the best thing North America can offer doesn't seem like a good fit.

Few can doubt that Zetterberg and Datsyuk are doing a great job filling the shoes of Shannahan and Yzerman when it comes to the scorecard. But when it comes to filling the seats, are they just to foreign for people to relate to?

While more Americans/Canadiens on the team could possibly make more of an impact to "relate" to, I'd hardly think it'd be that significant of a difference to put fannies in the stands.

Reason being even though guys like Yzerman and Shanahan were two of the most recognizable faces with the Wings in their recent history obviously, this team in recent years has had a lot of European players, the organization scouts in Europe plenty, and JLA was constatnly sold out until last year, still with a lot of European born players.

In recent past...

Fedorov

Larionov

Fischer

Kozlov

Olassoun

Eriksson

Fetisov

And a fair amount of others that have played on this franchise while the arena was selling out in recent memory.