About the Ducks

[Zion 93]

Okay, so there has been a lot of hate mail here, TSN, hockeybuzz, everywhere, with regards to the Teemu Selanne signing...

... I would like to start by saying that I do not hate Teemu. In fact, he is one of the few Ducks I don't hate. While I do not like what he did, he was not under contract... yadda-yadda-yadda.

What I would like to discuss is: the Regular Season.

How meaningless does the NHL regular season appear now? Detroit is running away with the President's Trophy, but after the trade deadline (when the Ducks pick up Sundin), all of the talk will be how this will be the first repeat championship since 97-98.

What can the NHL to address the issue of: the regular season just doesn't matter?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Okay, so there has been a lot of hate mail here, TSN, hockeybuzz, everywhere, with regards to the Teemu Selanne signing...

... I would like to start by saying that I do not hate Teemu. In fact, he is one of the few Ducks I don't hate. While I do not like what he did, he was not under contract... yadda-yadda-yadda.

What I would like to discuss is: the Regular Season.

How meaningless does the NHL regular season appear now? Detroit is running away with the President's Trophy, but after the trade deadline (when the Ducks pick up Sundin), all of the talk will be how this will be the first repeat championship since 97-98.

What can the NHL to address the issue of: the regular season just doesn't matter?

I think it depends on who your root for. I'm sure if you are Columbus, Atlanta, Boston, the Islanders, etc....the regular season matters alot.

If you're a fan of the Wings, for many of us the regular season stopped meaning something back in 1995.

I don't know if a player coming back mid-season really sways the perspective out there about the regular season one way or the other.

Babcock would definitely say how important the regular season is, as would all the coaches. But when we play as many games as we do in our sport we tend to get swept up more in the post season as opposed to what's going on in the middle of the year.

I don't know if the league views it as a problem and frankly, if it is I don't know what they could really do to change perception.

[up2here 41]

Okay, so there has been a lot of hate mail here, TSN, hockeybuzz, everywhere, with regards to the Teemu Selanne signing...

... I would like to start by saying that I do not hate Teemu. In fact, he is one of the few Ducks I don't hate. While I do not like what he did, he was not under contract... yadda-yadda-yadda.

What I would like to discuss is: the Regular Season.

How meaningless does the NHL regular season appear now? Detroit is running away with the President's Trophy, but after the trade deadline (when the Ducks pick up Sundin), all of the talk will be how this will be the first repeat championship since 97-98.

What can the NHL to address the issue of: the regular season just doesn't matter?

All I know is that if I was either of the 2 Ducks who will now be replaced in the line-up by Selanne and Niedermayer I would be very unhappy. Im sure they will tow the company line and say they are for whatever makes the team better but that will be B.S. These two players in all likelyhood had to work their butts off through training camp and more than half the season only to be replaced by two players who did neither of those things. It seems obvious to me that neither Niedermayer or Selanne ever intended to retire and this was just a ploy by two veterans to skip half of the season and the oft hated training camp. The NHL needs to address this "retirement" thing quickly so fans and teammates dont have to deal with this nonsense again.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

All I know is that if I was either of the 2 Ducks who will now be replaced in the line-up by Selanne and Niedermayer I would be very unhappy. Im sure they will tow the company line and say they are for whatever makes the team better but that will be B.S. These two players in all likelyhood had to work their butts off through training camp and more than half the season only to be replaced by two players who did neither of those things. It seems obvious to me that neither Niedermayer or Selanne ever intended to retire and this was just a ploy by two veterans to skip half of the season and the oft hated training camp. The NHL needs to address this "retirement" thing quickly so fans and teammates dont have to deal with this nonsense again.

Yeah, but so what? Hard work is great and all but the 2 guys being replaced are not Scott Niedermayer and Teemu Selanne. If the roles were reversed would you not want Lidstrom and Datsyuk to come back to the Wings just so Meech and Ellis could stay in the lineup?

Of course the replaced players will be upset, they're athletes who want to play. But you still gotta look in the mirror and be honest with yourself. And if either replaced player looks in the mirror and thinks he's better than Nieds or Selanne, i'd have to question that players sanity.

[up2here 41]

Yeah, but so what? Hard work is great and all but the 2 guys being replaced are not Scott Niedermayer and Teemu Selanne. If the roles were reversed would you not want Lidstrom and Datsyuk to come back to the Wings just so Meech and Ellis could stay in the lineup?

Of course the replaced players will be upset, they're athletes who want to play. But you still gotta look in the mirror and be honest with yourself. And if either replaced player looks in the mirror and thinks he's better than Nieds or Selanne, i'd have to question that players sanity.

Give me the hardworking guy with talent over the not so interested superstar anyday. The ultimate irony would be the Ducks not even making the playoffs.Very doubtful but a man can dream.

Edited January 29, 2008 by UP2HERE

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Give me the hardworking guy with talent over the not so interested superstar anyday. The ultimate irony would be the Ducks not even making the playoffs.Very doubtful but a man can dream.

Okay, so who exactly are we talking about here?

For starters, Nieds has been in the lineup for nearly 20 games. Can you tell me the name of the guy who he replaced? Not without looking it up I bet.

And who is Selanne going to replace?

And you're insinuating that neither of these guys are hard workers. Niedermayer, one of the most decorated dmen in history and Selanne, a surefire HOFer have done plenty of hard work in their day. I doubt anybody would question their work ethic to their faces.

Tell you what, I'll take Niedermayer and Selanne on my team and you can have:

Joe Dipenta and his 4 assists in 20 games and Drew Millar, Ryan Carter or Mark Mowers on your team. Those 3 have a combined 67 games played and a whopping 3 goals and 3 assists in that time.

[egroen 384]

Give me the hardworking guy with talent over the not so interested superstar anyday.

That's great -- if you are a local age group coach.

You'd be stupid in the NHL to not be willing to bump an Ellis for a Fedorov.

Anyways, I'm just pissed it appears the Ducks will be able to get away with exploiting all these loop holes. Burke signs Bertuzzi and Schneider for more than we were willing to pay; loses Penner; loses Neidermayer and Selanne for the majority of the season; has to trade Macdonald b/c Neidermayer is coming back ---->

And yet they are *STILL* sitting pretty with plenty of room under the cap, and look better on paper right now than they did last year when they won the cup.

Maybe if Holland was pulling all this crap I would think he was a genius, but I just really want something to come back and bite Burke in the ass. Initially, I was really hoping they would fall out of playoff contention but they are sitting just fine there.

Shove it to them in the playoffs, Red Wings!!!

Edited January 29, 2008 by egroen

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

That's great -- if you are a local age group coach.

You'd be stupid in the NHL to not be willing to bump an Ellis for a Fedorov.

Anyways, I'm just pissed it appears the Ducks will be able to get away with exploiting all these loop holes. Burke signs Bertuzzi and Schneider for more than we were willing to pay; loses Penner; loses Neidermayer and Selanne for the majority of the season; has to trade Macdonald b/c Neidermayer is coming back ---->

And yet they are *STILL* sitting pretty with plenty of room under the cap, and look better on paper right now than they did last year when they won the cup.

Maybe if Holland was pulling all this crap I would think he was a genius, but I just really want something to come back and bite Burke in the ass. Initially, I was really hoping they would fall out of playoff contention but they are sitting just fine there.

Shove it to them in the playoffs, Wed Wings!!!

I couldn't agree more. Nothing Burke has done is against the rules. I too would likely think Kenny is a genius if he pulled this stuff off.

You're a very rare bird sir. Somebody who can hate the Ducks as much as I do yet still have clarity about the whole thing.

[up2here 41]

Okay, so who exactly are we talking about here?

For starters, Nieds has been in the lineup for nearly 20 games. Can you tell me the name of the guy who he replaced? Not without looking it up I bet.

And who is Selanne going to replace?

And you're insinuating that neither of these guys are hard workers. Niedermayer, one of the most decorated dmen in history and Selanne, a surefire HOFer have done plenty of hard work in their day. I doubt anybody would question their work ethic to their faces.

Tell you what, I'll take Niedermayer and Selanne on my team and you can have:

Joe Dipenta and his 4 assists in 20 games and Drew Millar, Ryan Carter or Mark Mowers on your team. Those 3 have a combined 67 games played and a whopping 3 goals and 3 assists in that time.

Thats missing the point entirely. It doesnt matter who they replace. You can have Selanne and Nierdermayer,I'll take any two players who choose to be a part of the team from the beginning.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Thats missing the point entirely. It doesnt matter who they replace. You can have Selanne and Nierdermayer,I'll take any two players who choose to be a part of the team from the beginning.

No, the point isn't lost on me at all. Yeah, hard work is a fundamental thing you need to have to win. But all the hard work in the world isn't going to make a roster that lists Dipenta and Mowers a better team than one featuring Niedermayer and Selanne.

Nobody is missing the point. And if you want to stick with your story that you'd want the guys who were there from the beginning, then I'd say you'd have made a better infantry soldier in world war 2 than you would make an NHL coach.

[up2here 41]

No, the point isn't lost on me at all. Yeah, hard work is a fundamental thing you need to have to win. But all the hard work in the world isn't going to make a roster that lists Dipenta and Mowers a better team than one featuring Niedermayer and Selanne.

Nobody is missing the point. And if you want to stick with your story that you'd want the guys who were there from the beginning, then I'd say you'd have made a better infantry soldier in world war 2 than you would make an NHL coach.

Not only would that make me a better infantry soldier it also makes me a better man. Perhaps theres no room for morals in the NHL.

[egroen 384]

You're a very rare bird sir. Somebody who can hate the Ducks as much as I do yet still have clarity about the whole thing.

Yup, I'm just simply pissed about the whole thing.

There was so much that could go wrong for Burke, but thus far he has come out of it smelling like a bed of roses. I do think a lot of it sheer dumb luck though.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Not only would that make me a better infantry soldier it also makes me a better man. Perhaps theres no room for morals in the NHL.

I think morals and sports don't go together in the same sentence sadly.

As for being a better man. Hell, if i'm George Parros and somebody asked me if I wanted Dipenta, who I'd played next to all year or Niedermayer, i'm going with Niedermayer. And I dare somebody to go tell George Parros they're a better man than him.

this isn't about morals. It's about common sense, practicality and what players give you the best chance to win.

If we want to talk morals we should go to church, not the rink. Now, that's not to say people should be unethical or anything, just saying that when it comes to sports, common sense should trump any holier than thou notions.

[rivieraillusions 0]

I think the NHL should institute a policy like the NFL's where a player has to sign retirement paperwork if they are truly going to retire. Once they sign, they can't return . . . ever. If they don't sign the paperwork, the team they have a contract with is still on the hook for their salary. This would eliminate the Neidermeyer situation (which I think is much more disturbing than the Selanne situation since he didn't have a contract). None of this "suspend them without pay" crap.

[egroen 384]

Not only would that make me a better infantry soldier it also makes me a better man. Perhaps theres no room for morals in the NHL.

That's pretty funny if you are joking.

If not, how do you even watch professional sports? The average blue collar worker works harder than the vast majority of pro athletes -- how can you live in this world where the athletes make a hundred times more money, let alone be a fan?

[up2here 41]

That's pretty funny if you are joking.

If not, how do you even watch professional sports? The average blue collar worker works harder than the vast majority of pro athletes -- how can you live in this world where the athletes make a hundred times more money, let alone be a fan?

Im not saying Im a better man than anyone here,my appologies to anyone who thought I implied that. Im saying that morals in general make me a better man. Its not as much about hard work as it is about selfishness. Niedermayer and Selanne are hard working hockey players but their decisions are very selfish and I guess thats what bothers me more than anything.

Edited January 29, 2008 by UP2HERE

[egroen 384]

Niedermayer and Selanne are hard working hockey players but their decisions are very selfish and I guess thats what bothers me more than anything.

Well, I hear you there...

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Im not saying Im a better man than anyone here,my appologies to anyone who thought I implied that. Im saying that morals in general make me a better man. Its not as much about hard work as it is about selfishness. Niedermayer and Selanne are hard working hockey players but their decisions are very selfish and I guess thats what bothers me more than anything.

ahhh....

Let me ask you this though. Let's say it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that these guys just could not make up their minds if they wanted to stop doing the only they they've ever done.

Let's say they woke up one day and bam, they knew they wanted to come back. And all this can be proven beyond any doubt whatsoever.

Would they be selfish for merely being human? Deciding the rest of your life, ending what has been your entire life, I just can't point my finger at somebody and say you should've been able to decide quicker. I can't do it.

[toby91_ca 620]

Im not saying Im a better man than anyone here. Im saying that morals in general make me a better man. Its not as much about hard work as it is about selfishness. Niedermayer and Selanne are hard working hockey players but their decisions are very selfish and I guess thats what bothers me more than anything.

Let's think about the possible scenarios first before making conclusions about selfishness:

Scenario 1:

Let's assume both Niedermayer and Selanne wanted to have the chance to play for the cup again this year, but they didn't feel like going through the rigors of a full season, so they decided they would sit out for awhile to rest and come back when they are ready. In this scenario, I would agree that they are both being selfish. For the record, I wouldn't distinguish between the two because one had a contract and the other didn't, doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned.

Scenario 2:

Let's assume both players were really contemplating retirement and made decisions to retire (I can understand how difficult a decision this would be) and after being away from the game for some time, they realized they couldn't go just yet and decided to come back. In that scenario, it's hard to call the players selfish, but I suppose you could be a little upset that they couldn't make up their mind in time for the beginning of the season. However, I have to imagine that this scenario could exist and that they decided they wouldn't play and didn't really know they wanted to play until they were in the situation of not playing when October, November and December rolled around. You may not know what that feels like during the summer months.

Scenario 3:

Let's assume both players, management and the rest of the team knew that these players were going to be playing later in the year. They were nearing the end of their careers (though, not sure why Scott wouldn't be playing for many more years, but anyway) and in order to get a better team on paper, everyone agreed that they would sit out for awhile and come back later in the year when their cap hit would not be as high. In this scenario, it's a little hard to call them selfish, seeing as they are giving up millions by not playing, but at the same time, I can see where people would be upset with the whole situation.

I know a lot of people consider scenario 3 and a lot of people, including Burke have shot that scenario down, but I'm not so sure. I understand those that would argue against it since it would be a huge gamble keeping out 2 stars for much of the year (i.e. maybe you miss the playoffs), but I also can't figure it out. A little strange that 2 players on the same team? Also, whose willing to bet that this type of thing wouldn't have happened a few years ago? Cap manipulation? I'm not sure what the correct scenario is, but I'm not completely convinced it's not #3.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I think the NHL should institute a policy like the NFL's where a player has to sign retirement paperwork if they are truly going to retire. Once they sign, they can't return . . . ever. If they don't sign the paperwork, the team they have a contract with is still on the hook for their salary. This would eliminate the Neidermeyer situation (which I think is much more disturbing than the Selanne situation since he didn't have a contract). None of this "suspend them without pay" crap.

I think I could go along with some of your points. However.....

1. If you sign papers you can't come back for that next season. I don't think it should essentially ban you for life. People retire from the working world all the time and end up going back, sports shouldn't be any different.

2. I don't agree with making the team pay for the salary. If the player isn't going to play, how is that the team's fault? They signed the guy to a deal thinking he'd play. Why punish the team because the player doesn't show up? The player should be punished by not getting paid and not being allowed to play that year if he misses the drop dead date. But the team shouldn't pay the price for the player's actions.

Think about this, if you were to punish the team....and since we love conspiracy theories around here: Essentially, a Red Wings player could sign with the Ducks and then intentionally not play. In your scenario the Ducks would have to pay his salary. So if Kenny tells Chely, we don't want you back or if Chely says i'm retired, Kenny could tell him not to retire but instead try to sign with a rival and then just not play. Viola! Other team now on the hook for Chely's salary.

It's far fetched but I think it shows clearly why you can't punish the team for the player not showing up.

[up2here 41]

Let's think about the possible scenarios first before making conclusions about selfishness:

Scenario 1:

Let's assume both Niedermayer and Selanne wanted to have the chance to play for the cup again this year, but they didn't feel like going through the rigors of a full season, so they decided they would sit out for awhile to rest and come back when they are ready. In this scenario, I would agree that they are both being selfish. For the record, I wouldn't distinguish between the two because one had a contract and the other didn't, doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned.

Scenario 2:

Let's assume both players were really contemplating retirement and made decisions to retire (I can understand how difficult a decision this would be) and after being away from the game for some time, they realized they couldn't go just yet and decided to come back. In that scenario, it's hard to call the players selfish, but I suppose you could be a little upset that they couldn't make up their mind in time for the beginning of the season. However, I have to imagine that this scenario could exist and that they decided they wouldn't play and didn't really know they wanted to play until they were in the situation of not playing when October, November and December rolled around. You may not know what that feels like during the summer months.

Scenario 3:

Let's assume both players, management and the rest of the team knew that these players were going to be playing later in the year. They were nearing the end of their careers (though, not sure why Scott wouldn't be playing for many more years, but anyway) and in order to get a better team on paper, everyone agreed that they would sit out for awhile and come back later in the year when their cap hit would not be as high. In this scenario, it's a little hard to call them selfish, seeing as they are giving up millions by not playing, but at the same time, I can see where people would be upset with the whole situation.

I know a lot of people consider scenario 3 and a lot of people, including Burke have shot that scenario down, but I'm not so sure. I understand those that would argue against it since it would be a huge gamble keeping out 2 stars for much of the year (i.e. maybe you miss the playoffs), but I also can't figure it out. A little strange that 2 players on the same team? Also, whose willing to bet that this type of thing wouldn't have happened a few years ago? Cap manipulation? I'm not sure what the correct scenario is, but I'm not completely convinced it's not #3.

First off I love how laid out this is but the argument against scenario three is the moves Burke had to make in order to allow Selanne and Niedermayer to play a game. He had to trade an all star in Andy McDonald for washed up Doug Weight.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Let's think about the possible scenarios first before making conclusions about selfishness:

Scenario 1:

Let's assume both Niedermayer and Selanne wanted to have the chance to play for the cup again this year, but they didn't feel like going through the rigors of a full season, so they decided they would sit out for awhile to rest and come back when they are ready. In this scenario, I would agree that they are both being selfish. For the record, I wouldn't distinguish between the two because one had a contract and the other didn't, doesn't really matter as far as I'm concerned.

Scenario 2:

Let's assume both players were really contemplating retirement and made decisions to retire (I can understand how difficult a decision this would be) and after being away from the game for some time, they realized they couldn't go just yet and decided to come back. In that scenario, it's hard to call the players selfish, but I suppose you could be a little upset that they couldn't make up their mind in time for the beginning of the season. However, I have to imagine that this scenario could exist and that they decided they wouldn't play and didn't really know they wanted to play until they were in the situation of not playing when October, November and December rolled around. You may not know what that feels like during the summer months.

Scenario 3:

Let's assume both players, management and the rest of the team knew that these players were going to be playing later in the year. They were nearing the end of their careers (though, not sure why Scott wouldn't be playing for many more years, but anyway) and in order to get a better team on paper, everyone agreed that they would sit out for awhile and come back later in the year when their cap hit would not be as high. In this scenario, it's a little hard to call them selfish, seeing as they are giving up millions by not playing, but at the same time, I can see where people would be upset with the whole situation.

I know a lot of people consider scenario 3 and a lot of people, including Burke have shot that scenario down, but I'm not so sure. I understand those that would argue against it since it would be a huge gamble keeping out 2 stars for much of the year (i.e. maybe you miss the playoffs), but I also can't figure it out. A little strange that 2 players on the same team? Also, whose willing to bet that this type of thing wouldn't have happened a few years ago? Cap manipulation? I'm not sure what the correct scenario is, but I'm not completely convinced it's not #3.

Very insightful. Much moreso than the BS that plagued the first 7 pages of the other thread.

For me, all 3 scenarios seem plausible. I cannot deny 100% than any one of them is beyond the realm of possibility.

So for me, it boils down to the choice between believing what I want to believe to make the other guy look bad and myself feel better or giving benefit of the doubt and not calling into question people's ethics, character, etc....

I wouldn't want to have my character questioned under these circumstances so the least I can do is afford them the same respect.

In the end, people believe what they want. But where I come from, if you're going to believe the other guy is bad, you better damned well be able to prove it. It's innocent until proven guilty, not I think it sucks and it pisses me off so #3 fits nicely into my mindset and therefore that has to be the truth.

Too many people on this forum picked #3 from day one and did no critical thinking about it as you have done here. People want to question Teemu and Scott's work ethic? s***, the lack of critical thinking here is the epitome of laziness and poor work ethic if you ask me.

If somebody can prove they colluded and conspired to do all this. Then i'll jump on the bandwagon. Until then its nothing more than theories and pissing in the wind.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

First off I love how laid out this is but the argument against scenario three is the moves Burke had to make in order to allow Selanne and Niedermayer to play a game. He had to trade an all star in Andy McDonald for washed up Doug Weight.

True Dat(s)! Just another piece of the puzzle that makes any collusion seem like a ridiculous way to go if you're the Ducks.

[up2here 41]

ahhh....

Let me ask you this though. Let's say it can be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that these guys just could not make up their minds if they wanted to stop doing the only they they've ever done.

Let's say they woke up one day and bam, they knew they wanted to come back. And all this can be proven beyond any doubt whatsoever.

Would they be selfish for merely being human? Deciding the rest of your life, ending what has been your entire life, I just can't point my finger at somebody and say you should've been able to decide quicker. I can't do it.

I think both players owed it to their GM,Coach and teammates to make up their minds much sooner so while I agree that this is very plausible it doesnt excuse them in my mind.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I think both players owed it to their GM,Coach and teammates to make up their minds much sooner so while I agree that this is very plausible it doesnt excuse them in my mind.

cool