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NHL GM's Declare War on Goalies


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#101 haroldsnepsts

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 08:05 PM

Who needs bigger pads when you have eyes in the back of your head?



#102 CaliWingsNut

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 08:40 PM

QUOTE (Hank @ February 21, 2008 - 08:41AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So you're saying that a puck would hurt worse than a bullet only because it's bigger? I've spoken to cops that have taken a shot while wearing a bullet proof vest. They said it's like getting hit with a mack truck.

You can absolutely make the same comparison. The idea is that there are materials available that allow cops to protect themselves against a freakin' bullet (that can crack an engine block) while still wearing a T-shirt.
If that's possible then so is shrinking the goalie equipment so it's of reasonable size.

Look at Lidstrom's skates. They're made of the same material as the composite sticks. I've heard Lidstrom say a dozen times that he can take a 100MPH slapshot off the toe of his skate and he barely feels it.
If you can mold this material to a SKATE, how come it can't be done for something like chest and arm protectors???

Please people, stop defending goalies. It's already been shown that technology has helped streamline every single thing in life while goalies continue to grow. It's not for physical safety, but rather job security. Take up more net, see less goals. It's that simple.
True, goalies are far more conditioned and agile than from previous era's, but it I don't think they've gotten that good to the point where a 2.50 GAA is considered horrible. Especially when you think how Grant Fuhr won the Vezina with a 3.70 GAA and .877 save % only 20 years ago.

Goalies take up 30% more of the net than from years past. And while some goalies are much bigger, Ken Dryden would still be a monster in today's age and he was half the size of Giggy or Luongo. And he played in an era where he had to stop blasts from players such as Bobby Hull.

Seriously, whoever thinks the goalies need to be this big needs serious psychological help.


You misunderstood my point, mostly because I'm guessing I was too vague. I was basically making the point that comparing a bullet to a puck is a useless arguement. I agree that hockey pads need to be decreased.

However, since you went that route... try a slapshot on a bullet... see how much it hurts compared to a puck. Sounds funny when you put it that way, doesn't it? It would be the same result as shooting a puck at the same speed as a bullet (without taking wind resistance slowing the puck into account).

While you may be able to steal some of the technology from bulletproof gear, most of it is useless since they have two different goals. The number one goal of bulletproof gear is to prevent penetration. People getting up after a gunshot is something from the movies, most people shot break bones from the impact. Now take this into hockey... do you want a goalie wearing something that's going to stop the puck from entering his body? or something designed so he doesn't get phased by the pain of the shot in part of a second and respond to the next?

That's a bit drastic of an example, and I'm mostly trying to agree with you. I'm just saying that bullets and bulletproof gear are not something to be compared with goalie equipment.

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#103 chiefness

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Posted 21 February 2008 - 09:13 PM

The nhl does not need more goals. It may need alot of things but more goals isnt one of them. Stop trying to change the game. Goalie pads are fine the way they are and the same with the nets. Unless there is 40 shot shutouts going on everynight then it doesnt need to be fixed. Really there is no logic in changing the pads at all.

#104 Jocu

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 01:18 AM

QUOTE (chiefness @ February 21, 2008 - 10:13PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The nhl does not need more goals. It may need alot of things but more goals isnt one of them. Stop trying to change the game. Goalie pads are fine the way they are and the same with the nets. Unless there is 40 shot shutouts going on everynight then it doesnt need to be fixed. Really there is no logic in changing the pads at all.


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Luongo made 49 saves tonight; but his big ass gear must of made like 48 of them.

Edited by Jocu, 22 February 2008 - 01:37 AM.


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#105 Osgood=WIN!

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 03:57 AM

I'm all for smaller goalie gear. I remember watching the Devils play one night and seeing how drastically different Brodeur looked compared to the goalie across the ice from him (I forget who it was) in regards to equipment size. His pads come to the top of his knees, while others come up to their waist almost. That's stupid. You can obviously do just fine, and be safe in your goal with gear that actually fits you.

The only reason for bigger gear is to stop more shots without actually having the skill. It has NOTHING to do with safety.

Whenever I see a picture of Giguere, or watch him play, I can't help but laugh..hard. He looks ridiculous. They should make him tone down his equipment just for the fact he's making a joke out of the game and the position he plays by coming out geared up like that.

Edited by Osgood=WIN!, 22 February 2008 - 04:02 AM.

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#106 Defenseman13

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 07:20 AM

How come they just don't make the pucks smaller?

Or only hire smaller goalies, like this guy?

http://ca.youtube.co...h?v=2ywv_JCyolU
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#107 Wing Across The Pond

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 07:52 AM

can i just say... im probably not an expert on the matter.. in fact not even close.... but didnt goalies used to play without masks if i remember rightly? ok that was dangerous and all but a mask was developed and it was crap... geez i'd love to see some of the goalies now try to wear something like that!

A second point.... what about other skaters, not just goalies, who block shots... i dont see many D-men complaining when they get hit with a puck or worse hit by a 200+ pound man skating at them. Just because a goalie's decisions can maybe change a game they want the biggest advantage possible.

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#108 Hank

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 08:46 AM

QUOTE (CaliWingsNut @ February 21, 2008 - 08:40PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You misunderstood my point, mostly because I'm guessing I was too vague. I was basically making the point that comparing a bullet to a puck is a useless arguement. I agree that hockey pads need to be decreased.

However, since you went that route... try a slapshot on a bullet... see how much it hurts compared to a puck. Sounds funny when you put it that way, doesn't it? It would be the same result as shooting a puck at the same speed as a bullet (without taking wind resistance slowing the puck into account).

While you may be able to steal some of the technology from bulletproof gear, most of it is useless since they have two different goals. The number one goal of bulletproof gear is to prevent penetration. People getting up after a gunshot is something from the movies, most people shot break bones from the impact. Now take this into hockey... do you want a goalie wearing something that's going to stop the puck from entering his body? or something designed so he doesn't get phased by the pain of the shot in part of a second and respond to the next?

That's a bit drastic of an example, and I'm mostly trying to agree with you. I'm just saying that bullets and bulletproof gear are not something to be compared with goalie equipment.


First, I don't understand your reasoning behind a puck vs a bullet. You're still not making much sense.

Secondly, when did goalies turn into giant p*ssies? "I don't want to feel any pain?" WAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!
That's what goalies did for years and years. Suddenly this new crop of goalies wants every game to be sunshine and lolipops.
The equipment is there to prevent breaking bones or lacerations. Goalies SHOULD feel pucks hitting them. It's not like we're telling them to wear a T-shirt out there, but if this is every goalies argument then you're all a bunch of cry babies.
I've played hockey and had my share of bones broken, cuts, bruises etc. And so have many skaters out there. But you don't see them wearing 8 foot wide shoulder pads. Or wearing helmets that would dwarf the sun.

I remember seeing Grant Fuhr after games and he'd have welts and bruises all over his body - hardly anything life threatening. But I've seen players such as Ryan Miller (who's a super skinny SOB) and Dipietro after games and it looks like they've spent the year playing tennis.
Suck it up and wear smaller gear. The technology is there to make it smaller and just as safe - even more so.

Edited by Hank, 22 February 2008 - 08:47 AM.


#109 Hank

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 08:50 AM

QUOTE (Osgood=WIN! @ February 22, 2008 - 03:57AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm all for smaller goalie gear. I remember watching the Devils play one night and seeing how drastically different Brodeur looked compared to the goalie across the ice from him (I forget who it was) in regards to equipment size. His pads come to the top of his knees, while others come up to their waist almost. That's stupid. You can obviously do just fine, and be safe in your goal with gear that actually fits you.

The only reason for bigger gear is to stop more shots without actually having the skill. It has NOTHING to do with safety.

Whenever I see a picture of Giguere, or watch him play, I can't help but laugh..hard. He looks ridiculous. They should make him tone down his equipment just for the fact he's making a joke out of the game and the position he plays by coming out geared up like that.


Excellent points.
Watch some replays of the 2003 final when Brodeur and Giggy shook hands. Brodeur is 1" taller and 20lbs heavier and yet Giggy looked twice his size. Brodeur seems to think his smaller gear is safe enough. If it wasn't he would be using bigger stuff. Is Giggy a giant panzy or is he just smart enough to know that he has no talent and he needs HUGE equipment to keep a job in the NHL?

#110 eva unit zero

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 09:08 AM

QUOTE (haroldsnepsts @ February 21, 2008 - 08:05PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Who needs bigger pads when you have eyes in the back of your head?



It's saves like that which highlight the reason Brodeur is possibly the best ever. The reason is even referenced in the clip. Because he has taken the positive traits of the standard butterfly style and incorporated them into a hybrid style which gives him better reaction speed on high shots coming at him, because he's rarely down in a full butterfly.
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#111 russianswede919293

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 10:08 AM

Nope. I am biased though. As a goalie I am tired of seeing all the leagues changes be to make things worse for goaltenders. I would be angry but accept smaller equipment, but if the league ever makes nets bigger I will be so fed up with what a freak show Bettman wants the league to be.

There is nothing wrong with a 1-0 win in overtime...it is quite fun to watch actually. I love to see great goaltending and magnificent saves. And all Bettman wants is ridiculously high scores.

Lower scoring has nothing to do with equipment or s*** like that, that is why I believe its come down again since equipment got smaller toi begin with. It is that the training for goaltenders is so intense now that the goalies in the league are ridiculously talented.

#112 Hank

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 10:12 AM

QUOTE (russianswede919293 @ February 22, 2008 - 10:08AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Nope. I am biased though. As a goalie I am tired of seeing all the leagues changes be to make things worse for goaltenders. I would be angry but accept smaller equipment, but if the league ever makes nets bigger I will be so fed up with what a freak show Bettman wants the league to be.

There is nothing wrong with a 1-0 win in overtime...it is quite fun to watch actually. I love to see great goaltending and magnificent saves. And all Bettman wants is ridiculously high scores.

Lower scoring has nothing to do with equipment or s*** like that, that is why I believe its come down again since equipment got smaller toi begin with. It is that the training for goaltenders is so intense now that the goalies in the league are ridiculously talented.


So do I. That's why I want the equipment reduced. I'm sick of seeing 30 belly saves a night. Smaller gear will mean the return of more acrobatic, exciting goaltending.

And yes Bettman wants more goals - so does 95% of the paying public, including me.
9 times out of 10, a 1-0 game is dog-ass boring. And while some high-scoring games can be sloppy, a majority of the time a high scoring game is almost always far more entertaining than a low scoring game.

It's this kind of thinking that always makes me laugh. I've heard so many fans say "I love 1-0" games and then in the next breath complain that the NHL isn't on ESPN or has a better national TV deal. You get better TV deals when casual fans tune in. And casual fans do not want to see boring defensive systems and overblown goalies. Heck, most diehard NHL fans don't want to see that.

Edited by Hank, 22 February 2008 - 10:12 AM.


#113 drwscc

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 10:14 AM

But a goalie just standing there and letting pucks hit his giant shoulder pads or the matresses strapped to his legs without moving isn't a great save. It's just the fact that the goalie blocks a large portion of the net.
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#114 russianswede919293

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 10:14 AM

QUOTE (Hank @ February 22, 2008 - 10:12AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So do I. That's why I want the equipment reduced. I'm sick of seeing 30 belly saves a night. Smaller gear will mean the return of more acrobatic, exciting goaltending.

And yes Bettman wants more goals - so does 95% of the paying public, including me.
9 times out of 10, a 1-0 game is dog-ass boring. And while some high-scoring games can be sloppy, a majority of the time a high scoring game is almost always far more entertaining than a low scoring game.

It's this kind of thinking that always makes me laugh. I've heard so many fans say "I love 1-0" games and then in the next breath complain that the NHL isn't on ESPN or has a better national TV deal. You get better TV deals when casual fans tune in. And casual fans do not want to see boring defensive systems and overblown goalies. Heck, most diehard NHL fans don't want to see that.

I see your arguement, thats why I put my bias up top. I've almost broken fingers with equipment I have and making it smaller isn't helping my cause any...

#115 Opie

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 10:35 AM

I agree with EJ Hrdek and Melrose ( I can not believe I just typed those words) the pads are not designed for protection otherwise they would be rounded as most human bodies are round. They are square and protrude well beyond the legs, arms, and body of the goalie. No one is saying make the padding thinner and less protective. People are asking for narrower pads, which is similar to smaller pads. But smaller is more of a general term that could describe the thickness or the height of the pads.

Plus the Chest protectors that are 3 inches above the shoulders and 3 inches wider than the ribcage are ridiculous. I am not saying that Goalies rely on their padding to make the saves, I think they use bigger pads to make the net harder to shoot at. And seriously if it is legal why not do it, it is not like they are breaking the rules of the game or cheating, well unless the stories of guys putting cardboard under them to make the flaps stand up higher are true.

Plus this rule will not impact all goaltenders, sure guys like Luongo and Jiggy will be impacted, but this changes nothing about Broduer's game, and I would venture Vokoun's pads wouldn't be changed much either.

This is a typical discussion board debate, one extreme to the other.

If they were to take 4 inches of the max pad width it would go from 38 to 34 inches which I believe Broduer wears currently. And you know what if the best goalie in the world wears smaller pads and is still that much better (and we are talking about one of the most durable goalies in the league) why would anyone else need bigger pads.

When was the last time Broduer was hurt after getting hit with a shot, he has smaller pads than Jiggy, Luongo, Snow, etc. but he still plays 50+ games a year and has gawdy stats.

Anyone who argues that smaller pads will be an injury issue needs look no further than Broduer to say that is untrue!

Edited by Opie, 22 February 2008 - 10:36 AM.

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#116 Hank

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 10:48 AM

QUOTE (russianswede919293 @ February 22, 2008 - 10:14AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I see your arguement, thats why I put my bias up top. I've almost broken fingers with equipment I have and making it smaller isn't helping my cause any...


I have no problem with equpiment being better for smaller parts such as hands and feet. I can only imagine breaking digits.
I just don't see the need for shoulder pads to protrude 12" from the shoulders. When equipment extends beyond body parts, then it's not for physical protection but rather covering more net.

And like Opie said, those analysts make great points. The equipment today is not streamlined - it's gotten bulkier and more square. Kind of like the same shape as a hockey net.

#117 russianswede919293

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 10:52 AM

QUOTE (Hank @ February 22, 2008 - 10:48AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I have no problem with equpiment being better for smaller parts such as hands and feet. I can only imagine breaking digits.
I just don't see the need for shoulder pads to protrude 12" from the shoulders. When equipment extends beyond body parts, then it's not for physical protection but rather covering more net.

And like Opie said, those analysts make great points. The equipment today is not streamlined - it's gotten bulkier and more square. Kind of like the same shape as a hockey net.

I do agree with that. I just don't think it should be taken to the extreme where goaltenders are put at risk for injury just to increase scoring.

#118 Opie

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 10:57 AM

QUOTE (russianswede919293 @ February 22, 2008 - 03:52PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I do agree with that. I just don't think it should be taken to the extreme where goaltenders are put at risk for injury just to increase scoring.


The technology is the same, the padding will be the same, The helmet will still be the same size, chest protectors will still cover the whole chest, that will not change therefore the risk of goalie injury is not in question here. What is in question is the amount (think sq footage) of space that the pads will cover.
The goalies have used "Safety" or "Injury" issues as a reason (I wanted to say excuse but that made me sound like an asshat) before, I think it backfired on them when the trapezoid came in to play. I have no proof, but if the goalies were arguing against it the league could have said well this prevents you from going into danger areas.
But either way I still think safety is a moot point in this discussion, the equipment will still be the same materials and some goalies are currently playing with equipment the size they are talking about shrinking them to, and they do not get hurt.

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#119 MonkeyGoalie

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 11:16 AM

QUOTE (russianswede919293 @ February 22, 2008 - 10:52AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I do agree with that. I just don't think it should be taken to the extreme where goaltenders are put at risk for injury just to increase scoring.


I'm wondering how streamlining the goalies equipment would put the goalies at risk of injury. They wouldn't be taking any padding that is protecting a part of the goalie body only taking away the padding that is used to protect the space around the goalies body.

#120 Lidsyukerberg

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Posted 22 February 2008 - 11:27 AM

QUOTE (Defenseman13 @ February 22, 2008 - 07:20AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How come they just don't make the pucks smaller?

Or only hire smaller goalies, like this guy?

http://ca.youtube.co...h?v=2ywv_JCyolU


That was hilarious. I wonder if we can pick him up? Make it happen Kenny!

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