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Is Crosby the best player in the world?


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#81 eva unit zero

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 11:31 AM

QUOTE (GordieSid&Ted @ March 5, 2008 - 11:12AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, I'm not saying that at all. Obviously by my response, one could assume I took your list to be a ranking with Zetterberg being in the top slot.

Hence why I responded as such.

If you aren't claiming Zetterberg is the #1 forward then I don't have any issue.


And to answer your question, yup. I'd have him in my top 12 I believe.

PS: I think if you read the bolded text of your post you can see how somebody might think that is a ranking you are putting forth there.

I think the spot for top forward is close between all six guys I listed. Z, Dats, and Alfie aren't quite on the level of Crosby, Ovechkin, and Lecavalier but play a much more complete game with top level defense.
If players were rated from 1-100, with 80 being a first line forward and 90 being an elite player, with 100 being the best player in the world, all six of those guys would be ranked close to 95.

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#82 dallas27

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 11:32 AM

Hockey was invented IN Canada BY the British while they were stationed there for whatever war it was, at least to my knowledge. Guess I'm heading to wikipedia


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#83 eva unit zero

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 11:34 AM

QUOTE (dallas27 @ March 5, 2008 - 11:32AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hockey was invented IN Canada BY the British while they were stationed there for whatever war it was, at least to my knowledge. Guess I'm heading to wikipedia

Hockey was invented in Europe hundreds of years before Canada existed.
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#84 dallas27

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 11:45 AM

QUOTE
Another interesting story says that ice hockey was first played in 1885 by British soldiers stationed in Canada. Guards who were guarding the Parliament building in Canada used to sneak off to a nearby field and play ice hockey. Some say they started by whacking rocks with a stick to stay warm.

That is just one story.

http://wiki.answers....n_where_and_why


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#85 edicius

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 11:47 AM

QUOTE (FinRedWing @ March 5, 2008 - 11:21AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Is Crosby the best player in the world?
Does Tom Selleck have moustache?




I'm such an ass... tongue.gif

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#86 FinRedWing

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 11:57 AM

QUOTE (edicius @ March 5, 2008 - 06:47PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm such an ass... tongue.gif


laugh.gif
So he's known to be the best player in the world,but there are times when he isn't.

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#87 eva unit zero

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 12:16 PM

QUOTE (dallas27 @ March 5, 2008 - 11:45AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Read this: http://www.sihrhocke...port.cfm#europe

Try googling Hendrick Avercamp. He's a Dutch painter. He painted images of winter sports, including games that are very similar to hockey. He lived from the late 1500s to the mid 1600s. But yeah, he was just psychic and really painting images of colonial Canada.

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"I once devoured a monk's soul. It tasted like chocolate."

#88 dallas27

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 12:17 PM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ March 5, 2008 - 01:16PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Read this: http://www.sihrhocke...port.cfm#europe

Try googling Hendrick Avercamp. He's a Dutch painter. He painted images of winter sports, including games that are very similar to hockey. He lived from the late 1500s to the mid 1600s. But yeah, he was just psychic and really painting images of colonial Canada.

LOL, take it easy there keyboard warrior. I'm just posting what I found. But feel free to feed your ego some more by being a smart ass.

Edited by dallas27, 05 March 2008 - 12:18 PM.



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#89 Never_Retire_Steve

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 12:22 PM

QUOTE (Yzerfan1999 @ March 4, 2008 - 07:43PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
No, not really - then you would be contradicting your own statement because you are saying Lidstrom WAS replaced if we remained first in every defensive category....even though it is clear he wasn't because they Wings continued to lose and those stats are more likely a reflection of earlier season success.

I was just claiming that Malkin is not a huge drop off in talent compared to Crosby, whereas Rafalski is a good defenseman, but he is no Nick Lidstrom, and in the Wings case he injured as well, leaving Chelios and eventually Lebda and Lilja as our top D-pairings.

My point was that just because Pittsburgh continued its success with Malkin after Crosby was injured does not mean that Crosby is not one of the best, if not the best in the league - it just means the team was able to rally around Malkin and secondary scoring to keep winning.


I was more referring to how much Lidstrom impacts the team as we were WAY ahead in all defensive categories before his injury, since he has been out, our shots against and goals against have definitely fallen back closer to the rest of the league. I am aware of how you could've been confused with regards to my point as I didn't make it clearly (although in the first paragraph you are well aware of this). You're absolutely right that when Crosby is injured the drop off isn't as severe and it is for this exact reason as to why I say that he is the best (or possibly more accurate "Most Valuable") in the league.

This discussion was also on Drive this hardcore radio station and Lidstrom didn't even get mentioned. I think I will phone today and try to address my point. The question is it the best player in the league who wins MVP or the most valuable, because to me there are different winners to those awards.


#90 Spongewingredpants

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 12:28 PM

QUOTE (GordieSid&Ted @ March 5, 2008 - 02:52PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Jesus Christ Eva. You are the biggest freaking Zetterberg slappy i've ever seen. There isn't a team in the league that wouldnt' take Crosby or Ovechkin over Zetterberg.

ZETTERBERG IS NOT THE #1 RORWARD IN THE LEAGUE. HE ISN"T EVEN THE #1 PLAYER ON THE WINGS.

2+ months ago I said Datsyuk would lead the Wings in points by the end of the year. And that was when Z had a multi digit lead on him. Dats is going to lead the team in points again and probably win another Selke. More points, best defensive forward = DATSYUK > ZETTERBERG.

That statement of yours is one of the most ridiculous i've seen in years.


Ovechkin!

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#91 GordieSid&Ted

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 12:50 PM

QUOTE (Spongewingredpants @ March 5, 2008 - 12:28PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ovechkin!



From the I love the guy but I gotta admit thread in January


"I still think Datsyuk is going to put up more points than Hank this year. Sticking to it."


I'm still trying to find my earlier post regarding this.

And yes, I am doing so only to show off my spectacular prognosticating abilities and to inflate my already immense ego. tongue.gif


Remember, Zetterberg once had a multi-digit point lead on Datsyuk and everybody was chiming in with whether or not he could keep up the pace and win a scoring title and if he was the best forward in the league. Blah, blah....

Only the MIGHTY GS&T had the foresight, the wisdom, the sheer GENIUS to know what was really going to happen. rolleyes.gif


now don't f*** it up and make me look stupid Dats!
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#92 GordieSid&Ted

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 01:10 PM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ March 5, 2008 - 11:31AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the spot for top forward is close between all six guys I listed. Z, Dats, and Alfie aren't quite on the level of Crosby, Ovechkin, and Lecavalier but play a much more complete game with top level defense.
If players were rated from 1-100, with 80 being a first line forward and 90 being an elite player, with 100 being the best player in the world, all six of those guys would be ranked close to 95.



Interesting stat I just looked up.

Ovechkin has played 20 more games than Crosby this year and 23 more total during their 3 years careers.

AO has 90 points this year to Sid's 63.

Sounds like a whopping lead now for AO, huh?

Nope!

AO now has 288 career points to Crosby's 286 career points despite playing nearly 1/4 less of a season.

SID IS 'DA MAN!

HANDS DOWN BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME. Much like Gretzky he wasn't the fastest, not the strongest, not the best defensively, not the best sniper. But you put everything together and Sid is the overall best player.

There, I said it. No need to discuss any further.
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#93 eva unit zero

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 01:39 PM

QUOTE (GordieSid&Ted @ March 5, 2008 - 01:10PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Interesting stat I just looked up.

Ovechkin has played 20 more games than Crosby this year and 23 more total during their 3 years careers.

AO has 90 points this year to Sid's 63.

Sounds like a whopping lead now for AO, huh?

Nope!

AO now has 288 career points to Crosby's 286 career points despite playing nearly 1/4 less of a season.

SID IS 'DA MAN!

HANDS DOWN BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME. Much like Gretzky he wasn't the fastest, not the strongest, not the best defensively, not the best sniper. But you put everything together and Sid is the overall best player.

There, I said it. No need to discuss any further.


The best player in the NHL is not a forward.

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#94 Deke

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 01:44 PM

QUOTE (GordieSid&Ted @ March 5, 2008 - 02:10PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Interesting stat I just looked up.

Ovechkin has played 20 more games than Crosby this year and 23 more total during their 3 years careers.

AO has 90 points this year to Sid's 63.

Sounds like a whopping lead now for AO, huh?

Nope!

AO now has 288 career points to Crosby's 286 career points despite playing nearly 1/4 less of a season.

SID IS 'DA MAN!

HANDS DOWN BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME. Much like Gretzky he wasn't the fastest, not the strongest, not the best defensively, not the best sniper. But you put everything together and Sid is the overall best player.

There, I said it. No need to discuss any further.


Wow way to fail at 3rd grade math. Go back to your hockey arm chair where you read websites and don't actually watch hockey.

Crosby's Goals Per game: .45 (95 Goals/ 207 games played)

Ovechkin's Goals Per game: .65 (150 Goals / 230 games played)

So here is a nice fact that you can't refute: Game for game Ovechkin produces 30% more goals than Crosby.

Crosby has more assists than Ovechkin because he actually has team mates that can put the puck in the back of the net. Put Ovechkin with better team mates and he'd house him there.

I don't know what game of hockey you watch where you can put points and assists ahead of goals. Ask any hockey player a goal is three times as hard to get than an assist. You can get a secondary assist just passing up blue line that happens to turn into a play. Yea, that's equal to beating a goalie, riiiight.

Ovechkin has more goals scored because he's better at scoring goals. He's better at finishing checks. He's better at power play goals (55 to 33). He's better at PK, he's better at short handed goals. Oh and he has less PIMs than Crosby.

Oh and Ovechkin is a helluva lot more fun to watch than Crosby. Ovechkin skates around and plays hockey. Crosby skates in squares and triangles waiting for someone to give him the puck because he's Sidneyf****** Crosby.

How can anyone argue that Crosby is the best player in the world when while he's been out the Penguins have been doing better. Case closed, go back to watching reebok commercials.

Besides, the best player in the league is Lidstrom anyway.

Edited by Deke, 05 March 2008 - 01:50 PM.


#95 Deke

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 01:48 PM

QUOTE (eva unit zero @ March 5, 2008 - 02:39PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The best player in the NHL is not a forward.


I'd have to agree 100% on that.



#96 Inultus

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 02:24 PM

QUOTE (GordieSid&Ted @ March 5, 2008 - 08:52AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
2+ months ago I said Datsyuk would lead the Wings in points by the end of the year. And that was when Z had a multi digit lead on him. Dats is going to lead the team in points again and probably win another Selke. More points, best defensive forward = DATSYUK > ZETTERBERG.


We'll see. Personally I don't think that you can say which one is better. Z is more of a pure scorer and plays better defense but Datsyuk is an amazing passer and stickhandler. PPG Z is still ahead, but not by a ton...
"It's been six years since we won the Cup. That's too long." -Nick Lidstrom

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#97 BeeRYCE

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 02:33 PM

QUOTE (GordieSid&Ted @ March 5, 2008 - 01:10PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Interesting stat I just looked up.

Ovechkin has played 20 more games than Crosby this year and 23 more total during their 3 years careers.

AO has 90 points this year to Sid's 63.

Sounds like a whopping lead now for AO, huh?

Nope!

AO now has 288 career points to Crosby's 286 career points despite playing nearly 1/4 less of a season.

SID IS 'DA MAN!

HANDS DOWN BEST PLAYER IN THE GAME. Much like Gretzky he wasn't the fastest, not the strongest, not the best defensively, not the best sniper. But you put everything together and Sid is the overall best player.

There, I said it. No need to discuss any further.


I don't know... Crosby is actually one of the fastest, probably the strongest feet, probably the best backhand, one of the quickest releases, has good defensive skills as well. Crosby is good at everything really.

#98 Deke

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 02:46 PM

QUOTE (Inultus @ March 5, 2008 - 03:24PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
We'll see. Personally I don't think that you can say which one is better. Z is more of a pure scorer and plays better defense but Datsyuk is an amazing passer and stickhandler. PPG Z is still ahead, but not by a ton...


I don't know about that. Datsyuk steals the puck more than Zetterberg. I trust both of them to chase down a breakaway and lift the stick, but I think Datsyuk probably the better of the pair at defense.

Datsyuk probably has the best footing and balance of any player out there. He's not a big dude, but he knocks people down just by moving is torso and shouldering them with his big ole no neck shoulders.

The way I call it is that Zetterberg is the better forechecker, and Dats is the better neutral zone defense. D is always batting away passes, lifting sticks, stealing pucks and generally forcing the fowards to make bad decisions.



#99 toby91_ca

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 02:48 PM

QUOTE (Deke @ March 5, 2008 - 01:44PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow way to fail at 3rd grade math. Go back to your hockey arm chair where you read websites and don't actually watch hockey.

Crosby's Goals Per game: .45 (95 Goals/ 207 games played)

Ovechkin's Goals Per game: .65 (150 Goals / 230 games played)

So here is a nice fact that you can't refute: Game for game Ovechkin produces 30% more goals than Crosby.

Crosby has more assists than Ovechkin because he actually has team mates that can put the puck in the back of the net. Put Ovechkin with better team mates and he'd house him there.

I don't know what game of hockey you watch where you can put points and assists ahead of goals. Ask any hockey player a goal is three times as hard to get than an assist. You can get a secondary assist just passing up blue line that happens to turn into a play. Yea, that's equal to beating a goalie, riiiight.

Ovechkin has more goals scored because he's better at scoring goals. He's better at finishing checks. He's better at power play goals (55 to 33). He's better at PK, he's better at short handed goals. Oh and he has less PIMs than Crosby.

Oh and Ovechkin is a helluva lot more fun to watch than Crosby. Ovechkin skates around and plays hockey. Crosby skates in squares and triangles waiting for someone to give him the puck because he's Sidneyf****** Crosby.

How can anyone argue that Crosby is the best player in the world when while he's been out the Penguins have been doing better. Case closed, go back to watching reebok commercials.

Besides, the best player in the league is Lidstrom anyway.

So, to sum it all up, Ovechkin is better because he scores more goals? If you look through history, the best goal scorer year after year is rarely, rarely the best player.

Rather than try to counter everything you said, since I don't have time, I'll just pick on a couple things that you just seemed to throw out there without thinking, which bugs me since many people read things and take it as fact.

I think it is tough for Ovechkin to be a better PK player when he only plays about 9 seconds per game on the PK.

The Penguins were NOT doing better without Crosby, they were doing well due to some hot streaks from Malkin, Malone, Sykora and Conklin, but their overall winning percentage when Crosby was out was lower than before he was injured.

You know, you can really rip up any player if you really wanted to, but why bother? I like a good discussion of who is the better player (wich is difficult to do since their games are so different), but I find myself simply having to defend a player because the arguments being made are so off base and simply insulting certain players in an attempt to build up another rather than looking at what each player actually brings to the table.

If I wanted to bash Ovechkin, I'd probaby say something like this:

- In looking at his hattrick the other night, the 1st goal was a combination of a great pass to put him in on a breakaway and
the fact that he was floating (however, no one is a better floater than Lecavalier) - hey, 2 bashes in one!
- His 2nd and 3rd goals were the result of him simply getting near the net, receiving a pass and redirecting it in the net...
wow, excitement!!

That's what I would say if I wanted to bash someone, but in reality, I would look at it and say, great game by Ovechkin, highlight reel goal by breakaway from the defenders and the other 2 were the result of his great ability to skate around and get in a great position to receive a pass and score.

#100 GordieSid&Ted

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Posted 05 March 2008 - 02:51 PM

QUOTE (Deke @ March 5, 2008 - 01:44PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow way to fail at 3rd grade math. Go back to your hockey arm chair where you read websites and don't actually watch hockey.

Crosby's Goals Per game: .45 (95 Goals/ 207 games played)

Ovechkin's Goals Per game: .65 (150 Goals / 230 games played)

So here is a nice fact that you can't refute: Game for game Ovechkin produces 30% more goals than Crosby.

Crosby has more assists than Ovechkin because he actually has team mates that can put the puck in the back of the net. Put Ovechkin with better team mates and he'd house him there.

I don't know what game of hockey you watch where you can put points and assists ahead of goals. Ask any hockey player a goal is three times as hard to get than an assist. You can get a secondary assist just passing up blue line that happens to turn into a play. Yea, that's equal to beating a goalie, riiiight.

Ovechkin has more goals scored because he's better at scoring goals. He's better at finishing checks. He's better at power play goals (55 to 33). He's better at PK, he's better at short handed goals. Oh and he has less PIMs than Crosby.

Oh and Ovechkin is a helluva lot more fun to watch than Crosby. Ovechkin skates around and plays hockey. Crosby skates in squares and triangles waiting for someone to give him the puck because he's Sidneyf****** Crosby.

How can anyone argue that Crosby is the best player in the world when while he's been out the Penguins have been doing better. Case closed, go back to watching reebok commercials.

Besides, the best player in the league is Lidstrom anyway.



You don't want to f*** with me newbie.

Scoring titles aren't awarded for most goals. It's most points junior. So you've got a hard on for AO, wow. So do I and so does everyone else on the planet.

Sid has a superior points per game output to Ovechkin. Sid has an Art Ross and a Pearson. So even the players in the National Hockey League voted him the best in the game last year. His team has made it to the playoffs. AO's has not.

Everyone knows they are 2 of the best players in the game today. Calling one of them better than the other should be taken with a grain of salt as they are totally different types of players, playing different positions. The same goes for Lidstrom, the best defender in the game.


How exactly did I fail at math? Did I not add correctly or something?

And yet another newb who tosses out the "you don't watch hockey" crap. What are you, like 14 years old or something?

If you want to come at me with that much emphasis. At least bring your A game.

But like I said already, don't get on my bad side. I'll pound the dog snot out of you so fast you'll be logging in under a different user name before you know it.

Got that junior.


PS: Deke, you want to adress Toby's comment about AO playing only 9 seconds/game of PK time. You are the one who said he's a better PKer. Can you answer that for us you twit?


Edited by GordieSid&Ted, 05 March 2008 - 02:55 PM.

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