132 replies to this topic

[GordieSid&Ted]

The best player in the NHL is not a forward.

You're right. He's a goalie, right?

[Never_Retire_Steve]

As much as I love these debates, sometimes they get out of hand. We should just appreciate the fact that these two superstars will be around for a while, which is a great thing for hockey.

[GordieSid&Ted]

As much as I love these debates, sometimes they get out of hand. We should just appreciate the fact that these two superstars will be around for a while, which is a great thing for hockey.

I agree.

Except when some newbie starts hurling insults from left field I sort of have to put him in his place. I guess I could use the ignore button but that's no fun.

[34Legace34]

best player yes

best goal scorer no

[RedArmy]

I wonder though if there is a rational way to analyze all aspects of the game and see, which players exceeds the most on average, thus taking the crown as the best. the problem with articles like the one tsn posted as they are subjective. What are the factors that make a player the best?

Ok so Crosby is talented, young, plays well and Canadian? That is too subjective, they should list facts and prove why... Maybe do at least top 10 players in the world, so there is a comparison rather than Crosby Canada Crosby Canada canada crosby and etc... As far as I am concerned it is awesome that NHL is #1 in Canada, but most teams are in US and NHL has international rosters and ultimately its about hockey and not about a specific country, which is why NHL is the best league...

Edited by RedArmy, 05 March 2008 - 03:27 PM.

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile]

As much as I love these debates, sometimes they get out of hand. We should just appreciate the fact that these two superstars will be around for a while, which is a great thing for hockey.

I did pick up the term Keyboard Warrior though. That cracked me up, haha.

[Deke]

You don't want to f*** with me newbie.

I don't want to f*** with you? Taking it a bit personal? Here and all this time I thought I was ragging on Sid the Kid and it hurt your feelings. Ok there keyboard tough guy. What are you going to do? Just because I'm a newb to the forum doesn't mean I'm a hockey newb.

Scoring titles aren't awarded for most goals. It's most points junior. So you've got a hard on for AO, wow. So do I and so does everyone else on the planet.

We weren't talking about scoring titles, we were talking about AO vs SC and who is better. Who even mentioned scoring titles? Nice try to change the subject and take the focus off your inability to do math.

Sid has a superior points per game output to Ovechkin. Sid has an Art Ross and a Pearson. So even the players in the National Hockey League voted him the best in the game last year. His team has made it to the playoffs. AO's has not.

Wow so he has better team mates. We already established that. The penguins did better without Crosby than they did with Crosby. That means SC has better team mates who he can pass to. Most of his points are from assists, which means someone else, if not two other people, did the hard work. You can rack up an assist just by clearing your zone, big deal.

If Sid was so amazing, why did the penguins do better without crosby?

How exactly did I fail at math? Did I not add correctly or something?

First off you can't do fractions very well, and secondly you need to look at production per game as an average not career stats. It's clear that AO produces more per game than SC.

And yet another newb who tosses out the "you don't watch hockey" crap. What are you, like 14 years old or something?

If you want to come at me with that much emphasis. At least bring your A game.

Yet another forum guy who's defense is "What are you, like 14 years old or something?". Wow man, you must be a vetran of hundreds of EPIC FORUM BATTLES.

You flatter yourself by thinking I was even trying to bring an "A game" on an internet forum. I was merely posting math and statistics to show you that you were incorrect by trying to show that Sids production was better than AOs. Last I checked that was called A LEGITIMATE POINT BACKED UP BY FACTS. You can talk A games and all this stupid basketball trash talk and meanwhile I'll continue to provide insightful analysis of hockey backed by facts and numbers.

But like I said already, don't get on my bad side. I'll pound the dog snot out of you so fast you'll be logging in under a different user name before you know it.

Got that junior.

Pound the dog snot out of me? That doesn't even make sense. If you're going to throw insults out over the internet, where you are nice and safe, you might want to make an effort to sound a little less like someone who let a forum post hurt his feelings so much.

PS: Deke, you want to adress Toby's comment about AO playing only 9 seconds/game of PK time. You are the one who said he's a better PKer. Can you answer that for us you twit?

Yea, he has 3 short handed goals. Crosby has.... Zero. Despite logging more pk time. Next question?

It's pretty pathetic when the amount of time you've been registered on a internet forum equates to your "internet tough guy status" and knowledge about hockey.

Edited by Deke, 05 March 2008 - 03:39 PM.

[GordieSid&Ted]

I wonder though if there is a rational way to analyze all aspects of the game and see, which players exceeds the most on average, thus taking the crown as the best. the problem with articles like the one tsn posted as they are subjective. What are the factors that make a player the best?

Ok so Crosby is talented, young, plays well and Canadian? That is too subjective, they should list facts and prove why... Maybe do at least top 10 players in the world, so there is a comparison rather than Crosby Canada Crosby Canada canada crosby and etc... As far as I am concerned it is awesome that NHL is #1 in Canada, but most teams are in US and NHL has international rosters and ultimately its about hockey and not about a specific country, which is why NHL is the best league...

I think Harold has posted Sid's NHL records plenty of times for people to have got on the bus by now.

You are right about "the best" talk being subjective. So you've got to look at stats and accomlishments.

Thus far, AO's only accomplishments are scoring more goals per game, delivering more hits and winning the Calder Trophy.

Sid's accomplishments far outweigh AO's thus far in their young careers.

Hence why I put Sid at #1 in the league and AO at #2. I have a hard time putting the best dman (Lidstrom) at #3 because I've just never ranked dmen that high up when there are so many elite forwards and goaltenders.

[GordieSid&Ted]

I don't want to f*** you with? Taking it a bit personal? Here and all this time I thought I was ragging on Sid the Kid and it hurt your feelings. Ok there keyboard tough guy. What are you going to do? Just because I'm a newb to the forum doesn't mean I'm a hockey newb.



We weren't talking about scoring titles, we were talking about AO vs SC and who is better. Who even mentioned scoring titles? Nice try to change the subject and take the focus off your inability to do math.



Wow so he has better team mates. We already established that. The penguins did better without Crosby than they did with Crosby. That means SC has better team mates who he can pass to. Most of his points are from assists, which means someone else, if not two other people, did the hard work. You can rack up an assist just by clearing your zone, big deal.




First off you can't do fractions very well, and secondly you need to look at production per game as an average not career stats. It's clear that AO produces more per game than SC.



Yet another forum guy who's defense is "What are you, like 14 years old or something?". Wow man, you must be a vetran of hundreds of EPIC FORUM BATTLES.

You flatter yourself by thinking I was even trying to bring an "A game" on an internet forum. I was merely posting math and statistics to show you that you were incorrect by trying to show that Sids production was better than AOs. Last I checked that was called A LEGITIMATE POINT BACKED UP BY FACTS. You can talk A games and all this stupid basketball trash talk and meanwhile I'll continue to provide insightful analysis of hockey backed by facts and numbers.



Pound the dog snot out of me? That doesn't even make sense. If you're going to throw insults out over the internet, where you are nice and safe, you might want to make an effort to sound a little less like someone who let a forum post hurt his feelings so much.




Yea, he has 3 short handed goals. Next?

It's pretty pathetic when the amount of time you've been registered on a internet forum equates to your "internet tough guy status" and knowledge about hockey.

Get your s*** straight junior.

Take it personally? Yeah, when your first post accuses me of failing 3rd grade math and that I don't watch hockey, I take that personally. Sort of like me calling you af****** idiot for not grasping that simplistic concept. See, you should take that personally. Duh!

As for the math? What fractions am I bad at? And how does AO produce more than Crosby? Oh, I know, because YOU SAY a goal is worth 3 times as much as an assist. Did I miss when the NHL started awarding the Art Ross that way? Hence, why I brought up the scoring title issue to begin with retard.

Production per game as an average, not career statistics??? WTF??? Is anybody else confused by what this guy is saying? I don't give a hell how your screwed up mind is trying to work the kinks out but Sid's PPG is higher than AO's. You speaka chinese or somethin?

SHOW ME WHERE AO PRODUCES MORE THAN SID. IT'S A SIMPLE EQUATION. POINTS DIVIDED BY GAMES PLAYED. Who is higher? Who is the math retard now.

The Pens did better without Crosby? DID YOU NOT READ TOBY's post at all? Again, FACTS escape you.

He has 3 shorthanded goals. So what. So he averages 1 shorthanded goal per year so that makes him a better penalty killer. Why don't you address Toby's FACTUAL STATISTIC about his ice time on the PK? Wouldn't that be an indicator of his ability defensively? If he was a great PKer why the f*** wouldn't he be out there more.

You're really going to go with the argument that he has 3 shorties? I worry for you getting through life if that's the case.



You can try to cover your tracks all you want. The bottom line is you are nobody. And you came in here and your first post you attack me personally (hence me taking it personally stupid). Maybe try to be civil and you'll get civil in return.

But act like a ****** bag and see how long you last.

[toby91_ca]

I don't want to f*** with you? Taking it a bit personal? Here and all this time I thought I was ragging on Sid the Kid and it hurt your feelings. Ok there keyboard tough guy. What are you going to do? Just because I'm a newb to the forum doesn't mean I'm a hockey newb.



We weren't talking about scoring titles, we were talking about AO vs SC and who is better. Who even mentioned scoring titles? Nice try to change the subject and take the focus off your inability to do math.



Wow so he has better team mates. We already established that. The penguins did better without Crosby than they did with Crosby. That means SC has better team mates who he can pass to. Most of his points are from assists, which means someone else, if not two other people, did the hard work. You can rack up an assist just by clearing your zone, big deal.

If Sid was so amazing, why did the penguins do better without crosby?



First off you can't do fractions very well, and secondly you need to look at production per game as an average not career stats. It's clear that AO produces more per game than SC.



Yet another forum guy who's defense is "What are you, like 14 years old or something?". Wow man, you must be a vetran of hundreds of EPIC FORUM BATTLES.

You flatter yourself by thinking I was even trying to bring an "A game" on an internet forum. I was merely posting math and statistics to show you that you were incorrect by trying to show that Sids production was better than AOs. Last I checked that was called A LEGITIMATE POINT BACKED UP BY FACTS. You can talk A games and all this stupid basketball trash talk and meanwhile I'll continue to provide insightful analysis of hockey backed by facts and numbers.



Pound the dog snot out of me? That doesn't even make sense. If you're going to throw insults out over the internet, where you are nice and safe, you might want to make an effort to sound a little less like someone who let a forum post hurt his feelings so much.




Yea, he has 3 short handed goals. Crosby has.... Zero. Despite logging more pk time. Next question?

It's pretty pathetic when the amount of time you've been registered on a internet forum equates to your "internet tough guy status" and knowledge about hockey.

Ovechkin scored 3 goals short handed 2 years ago, so what? He has barely played on the PK since, while Crosby has been getting increasingly more PK time with experience, especially this year.

Please do me a favour and answer to very simple questions, which you have seemed to ignore:

- Okay, no one was talking about scoring titles, but can you explain how more goals = better player and total points should
be ignored?
- Could you please provide the stats that back up your claim that the Pens did better without Crosby?

[dallas27]

[GordieSid&Ted]

HA! Nice!

[dallas27]

Yea, I laughed a little when I thought of that hah

[toby91_ca]

To save time:

Record without Crosby = 11-7-4 (.591 win%)
Record with Crosby = 27-16-3 (.620 win%)

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile]

haha. perfect.

[Deke]

Ovechkin scored 3 goals short handed 2 years ago, so what? He has barely played on the PK since, while Crosby has been getting increasingly more PK time with experience, especially this year.

Please do me a favour and answer to very simple questions, which you have seemed to ignore:

- Okay, no one was talking about scoring titles, but can you explain how more goals = better player and total points should
be ignored?
- Could you please provide the stats that back up your claim that the Pens did better without Crosby?

Because points are a bulls*** statistic. Let's say I run up the neutral zone and dump the puck in, just like I would do 10 times a game to either get the puck deep or make a line change. Not trying to make a play happen, just moving the puck. So the puck gets dumped in, my team mate comes out of no where grabs the puck and scores.

I get a point, he get's a point, and the defensemen who just happened to pass ME the puck, gets a point. All we did was touch the puck. The guy who scored the goal had to beat the goalie.

My opinion is that when trying to determine if a player is better than another player a goal is worth more than a pass.

- Could you please provide the stats that back up your claim that the Pens did better without Crosby?

Sure thing:

Sid played from Start of the season to jan 18th and returned 3-3

CODE

    sid    no sid
games    46    26
Wins    26    16
Losses    20    10
Loss %    0.434    0.384
Win %      0.565    0.615

Last time I checked my 3rd grade mathbook, 61% win percentage was not only statistically significant, but a better average.

Look, Crosby is a good player, if you read my previous posts before this INTRAGALATIC INTRAWEB FLAME WAR started and dude's feelings got hurt, you'll see I even said so and compared him to a young Steve Yzerman. I don't know about you guys, but in my book that's a damned good thing to say about someone.

But to say he's the best player in the world? No. If he was so good, the Penguins would have fallen apart in his absense. Look at Detroit. Great team, but a few key injuries and the whole team goes down.

No if anything, Crosby has been racking up points by feeding Malkin and getting all the credit for it. Crosby can score points, but apparently he can't score goals and win games. Malkin can. Malkin finally got out of Crosby's shadow and now the penguins are the better for it.

I'll concede the point about Short handed goals. Short handed goals do not make a great PKer, but I was just trying to rub it in because dude was crying over the internet. It's funny, laugh.

Edited by Deke, 05 March 2008 - 04:09 PM.

[GordieSid&Ted]

To save time:

Record without Crosby = 11-7-4 (.591 win%)
Record with Crosby = 27-16-3 (.620 win%)

Toby, I don't think your stats are going to resonate with deke.

Remember, this is the guy who says goals are worth 3 times as much as assists and that you have to look at averages and not career stats to determine who has more production per game.


HUH?

[RedArmy]

I think Harold has posted Sid's NHL records plenty of times for people to have got on the bus by now.

You are right about "the best" talk being subjective. So you've got to look at stats and accomlishments.

Thus far, AO's only accomplishments are scoring more goals per game, delivering more hits and winning the Calder Trophy.

Sid's accomplishments far outweigh AO's thus far in their young careers.

Hence why I put Sid at #1 in the league and AO at #2. I have a hard time putting the best dman (Lidstrom) at #3 because I've just never ranked dmen that high up when there are so many elite forwards and goaltenders.

So maybe over a period of time Sid is the one, but let's say this season there is a big if factor. what if he didn't get hurt, that we don't know as far as his performance goes. Say Ovechkin drags his team into playoffs and scores well over 100 points, wouldn't he be the one this season? There is another lingering question because there is so much hype about him perhaps his team mates are forced to pass to him and have him be the scoring machine? Say if everyone had this level of hype around Malkin wouldn't he produce the same results? It seems he is with Sid being injured. There is no doubt about the fact that Pens are way better with Sid & Malkin healthy, but if the team is built around Sid he is the one getting the most ice time and the most chances... It is probably the same in washington though lol I bet Semin would get more chances if the team was built around him... tough tough question to answer...

[GordieSid&Ted]

It's funny, laugh.
[/quote]


No deke. You are funny. Believe me, I, along with everyone else here with an IQ over 65 are getting a big laugh at your expense. So yes, it is very funny.


By the way, please attack all board members here by insulting them and accusing them of not watching hockey or having no knowlege of the game as you are insinuating and see if anybody else has an adverse reaction to you.

Making a good first impression isn't your strong suit huh?

[GordieSid&Ted]

So maybe over a period of time Sid is the one, but let's say this season there is a big if factor. what if he didn't get hurt, that we don't know as far as his performance goes. Say Ovechkin drags his team into playoffs and scores well over 100 points, wouldn't he be the one this season? There is another lingering question because there is so much hype about him perhaps his team mates are forced to pass to him and have him be the scoring machine? Say if everyone had this level of hype around Malkin wouldn't he produce the same results? It seems he is with Sid being injured. There is no doubt about the fact that Pens are way better with Sid & Malkin healthy, but if the team is built around Sid he is the one getting the most ice time and the most chances... It is probably the same in washington though lol I bet Semin would get more chances if the team was built around him... tough tough question to answer...

Yeah, things change seasonally, even daily.

That's why I think you have to look at their accomplishments over the past 3 seasons. They entered the league together. Which guy has gotten his team to the playoffs, has broken the most NHL records of the two and has the higher PPG output?

If that changes over the next 2 years then maybe AO is the #1. But for now I see it as Sid since he has accomplished more during the same time frame.