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ShanahanMan

If we lose this series, will Holland be fired?

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There's no chance Holland gets fired. Is his idea of how to build a roster responsible for a team that struggles to get out of round one? Absolutely, to my mind. But nobody will fire a GM whose team is at the top of the standings every year.

Without reading the first page of the thread, I'm positive that this is the smartest post.

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I give Devellano the credit there.

As for Holland...

2 more years before I'll say if he can handle being a GM in the salary cap era. That's enough time to adjust and tell who can and cannot work the cap.

That said I wouldn't be surprised to see minor changes coming this offseason to the staff.

Also, all those players we got in the 90's were from Hakan Andersson.

And even today, Holland lets Jim Nill and his team perform the drafting.

Holland's responsible for retaining or obtaining playes from the current roster.

This season he hasn't done a great job in this regard. His inability to even entertain dealing away some of our younger prospects is holding this team back.

In the offseason Filpulla and Hudler need to be dealt for bigger, stronger wingers capable of scoring 20+ goals.

Then he needs to sign Huet.

Let Stuart and Sammuelson walk.

In fact, I believe Quincey played better last spring than Stuart is now.

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He should be fired if we lose this series.

That would give us a first round loss every other year since 2000. Yeah, I know we always make the playoffs, but what's the point if you're only going to be that much more disappointed being ousted in the first round.

This team has no hunger to win the Cup. You don't need hunger to win regular season games when skill can carry you out there every night. But winning a 7 game series takes something extra, and this team right now doesn't have that something extra. He put this team together, and I'm tired of him taking credit for Scotty Bowman's Stanley Cups and Mike Ilitch's money.

Holland is a good GM, but far from the god he's made out to be here on LGW, and I don't see why he should have immunity.

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Without reading the first page of the thread, I'm positive that this is the smartestpost.

It gets my vote too.

But like monk said, Holland should go. How can Illitch not see that the President's Trophy is as useful as passing the puck to Sammy.

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Watch as all the fair-weathered fans jump off the bandwagon. Will Holland get fired if the Wings lose to the Preds? Very unlikely. Will there be some changes? Sure, but their not gonna have a fire sale and start over. Instead the management will address key issues to make the team more playoff ready.

Personally, I think the Wings problem has always been that they find a way to play down to the level of the competition.

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Watch as all the fair-weathered fans jump off the bandwagon. Will Holland get fired if the Wings lose to the Preds? Very unlikely. Will there be some changes? Sure, but their not gonna have a fire sale and start over. Instead the management will address key issues to make the team more playoff ready.

Personally, I think the Wings problem has always been that they find a way to play down to the level of the competition.

Like Holland did this year?

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Overall, he's a good GM. Don't get me wrong. This team has pretty much completely changed from the time he took over and they're still great. But I feel like to some extent he's lost his balls in the cap era, and that's not a good quality. I can appreciate looking toward the future, but not at the expense of the present when the window is open NOW. And that's kind of what he's done...

I don't agree really. He made that Bertuzzi move which was a little ballsy and I think he learned a lesson and wasn't about to pull the same thing this year unless it was all perfectly gift-wrapped and pretty. It may be hard to watch as a fan in the short run but it makes a lot more sense in the long run. I think next year or two years from now it'll become more evident how well he's working in the cap system. Like I said, this is still the learning curve and there are going to be mistakes and things that seemingly don't make sense, but he's made a lot of great moves too along the way. This summer will be an interesting one to watch...

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I won't flame you because I agree with you.

Holland failed to replace Lang and Bertuzzi. In their wake we have a completely invisible Filpulla.

He also let Markov walk and we replaced him with Stuart. Markov is far more physical while Stuart has at least one brain fart on every shift.

Goaltending has always been the Wings achilles heel and this years playoff run is no exception. And what has Holland done to address that? Nothing. Even when Christobal Huet could have been had FOR NOTHING.

Once again we headed into the playoffs without enough size and scoring along the wings along with having suspect goaltending.

When Dats and Zetts aren't on the ice, it's shocking how inffective our offense is. Sammy is completely and utterly useless. Filpulla is non-existant. Franzen hasn't been seen in two games. Hudler is only competent during the man-advantage. Cleary is obviously still not 100%. And Hasek? He continues to struggle and gives up at least one bad goal a game. I know he played well last year but if you go over old game tapes, even though we went to the Conference finals, he still let in a bad goal nearly every game.

While Holland continues to overpay to retain this soft puck-possession team, he's failed to load up in areas that win Cups.

Ellis is being made to look far better than he really is. Look at all the giant, juicy rebounds he's giving up from 40-foot shots. And yet, where is the 2nd chance shot? It's never, ever there. Why? Because so few of our forwards are able to outmuscle the Predators for those bounces or rebounds. How many times have we seen our players get manhandled along the boards, losing puck battle after puck battle?

What's really, really frustrating for me is that I have no idea where the team showed up against Calgary last spring has gone to. This team looks exactly like the one that got swept by Anaheim in 03, doused in 04 by the Flames and humiliated by the Oilers in 05.

In the playoffs, things are so tight that only a very select group of players can continue to create chances they way they can in the regular season. Guys like Malkin, Datsyuk, Crosby, etc. But for the rest of the players like Sammuelsson, Filpulla, Hudler, Cleary and Franzen they HAVE to find a 2nd gear and another level to score. It's twice as hard to light the lamp in the playoffs than it is in November. A higher price needs to be paid to score. You need to take punches and sticks to the face. And so far, I'm not seeing that willingness from many of our guys.

Regardless if we make it through this round, I don't see this team coming close to winning it all.

If we do lose this round or the next, we need to change philosphy's on this team. I'm tired of winning President's Trophy's. All it does is remind me and everyone else how we can dominate for 6 months of meaningless hockey but fail to show up with our balls in a lunchpail when the games matter.

We can start by jettisoning Filpulla, Samuelsson, Hudler and Lebda. Lets get some big surly meatheads - one of which can at least score.

And for crying out loud! Can we get a true #1 goalie???? Huet is a UFA this spring. Enough with loading up on guys who can play ticky-tacky puck possession hockey. It's been proven that all you need is a top goalie and a few heartbeats in front of him to advance deep into the playoffs. But maybe that's where the issue lies. Too many bodies, not enough hearts.

And Lidstrom? How about you or any of the leaders on the team like Draper or Chelios start calling players out like Regher did on the Flames? It's obviouis some of your boys aren't doing what's necessary to win. What's even more troubleling is that so many of these guys have been to the top but forget to remind everyone else what's needed.

Ugh. That's my tainted, Wings-fan rant of the day.

But I'm sure Holland will go out and sign some more sweethearts from across the pond. Guys that will see their junk shrivle up in their abdomens when facing a team complete with players who come to the rink with balls and a hard hat.

EDIT: Wanted to add that I'm tired of watching the Wings lose when they don't put in a complete 60 minute effort. Meanwhile our opponent only needs to play hard for 8 minutes and they beat us.

F**K!!!! WHERE IS THE TEAM FROM LAST SPRING?????? LET'S SEE SOME F**CKING DESPERATION!!!

Remember how the Wings came flying out of the game last year? How they immediately started hammering the bigger and stronger Flames around? I think it was because the Wings players were tired of losing early and were embrassed about what was written about them in the papers. Everyone was picking the Flames to upset them. So they took care of business. Well I guess after going to the semi-finals means you can take a couple more springs off.

What a joke! I hope Illitch is forced to drop ticket prices to $8 a seat just to get people to come to that dump of an arena so we can all listen to "Whats going on?" and "Open Up Your Eyes" everytime the Wings get a penalty.

F**K you DJ!

Just wow...wow...I couldn't disagree more with just about everything you said and it's one of those instances where it's just not even worth arguing. I think most people are logical enough to not pay this senseless array of thought much mind.

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There's no chance Holland gets fired. Is his idea of how to build a roster responsible for a team that struggles to get out of round one? Absolutely, to my mind. But nobody will fire a GM whose team is at the top of the standings every year.

but coaches might roll

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Just wow...wow...I couldn't disagree more with just about everything you said and it's one of those instances where it's just not even worth arguing. I think most people are logical enough to not pay this senseless array of thought much mind.

So Filp hasn't been invisble?

The loss of Bertuzzi, Lang and Markov was addressed?

Hasek's been playing well?

The team is playing with as much fire and grit as they did against Calgary last spring?

I guess if you disagree with all of that then you're posts should be ignored as well.

At least I can agree with your last point.

Edited by Hank

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two words

MATT MILLEN

Hahahaha. I don't know if I would go that far.

But Holland does need to be made accountable for constantly having a terrific regular season team that falls flat on it's face far too many times in the regular season.

It's one thing to lose from being outplayed. I could live with last years loss to the Ducks because the Wings put it all on the table. They had injuries but that was the only reason they lost. Not from lack of effort or determination.

The same could not be said for 05 or, so far, this series.

We have way too many forwards that have yet to step up and contribute anything to this team.

Edited by Hank

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what the hell do you know about being a NHL GM? get real

Let me break it down for you so you can wrap your brain around it.

2002 Holland takes over the GM position and a team that I could have lead to the Cup.

Let's look at his track record since then.

He is now the GM of the Red Wings, a team that has won 3 Cups in 6 years. He has inherited a winning franchise and has an owner who simply put, will spend anything for anyone not named Fedorov.

Players want to come to Detroit to win. It makes signing UFA's a lot easier than say if he were in Montreal or Florida.

Let's fast forward to the NHL after the lockout. What has Holland done to make this team better? He doesn't draft players, he signs UFA's and decides who will stay and who will go.

Since the lockout Holland hasn't made one big signing (not knocking him for it), he hasn't made on signing of an impact player unless it was to offset the loss of another (all Matty and Raffy). Holland hasn't worked out any great deals to retain any of his own, Lidstrom would have been signed for whatever he asked, Datsyuk was signed at market value, and so will Hank. Re-signing Ozzie this season was the best deal he has made.

And look at the Hasek re-signing the first time. He went out and basically stabbed Cujo in the back for a guy who, regardless of your personal opinion, wasn't any better. Kenny was forced into resigning Hasek this past offseason because there weren't any available goaltenders who were better via UFA.

So I say again, Holland has it pretty easy as a NHL GM. The Wings have terrific scouting and drafting.

Let me ask you this. What has he done that makes him such a great GM?

I know I'll get hammered for this, but it's the truth, so I don't really care. If you want to take a look at an outstanding GM, look toward Anaheim. Burke is amazing. He wins everywhere he goes, he builds teams up from scratch and turns them into contenders. He is that good.

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You're insane. Just.....insane.

What the hell is happening around here?

Word... Granted our team has played a s***ty two games, in no uncertain terms...

But Like so many hundreds of people have said for so many years ITS NOT THE END OF THE WORLD,

Stand by your team and stop bitching.

Its ok to be upset and be critical about how your team has preformed but we get waaaay to carried away.

Someone else has already said this, I cant imagine what preds fans who are browsing this site are thinking, What a bunch of little crybabies or something to that effect.

In a word... we're spoiled.

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If we don't get to the Cup Finals my opinion is both Holland and Babcock should be sent packing.

I still like Babcock. I just don't think he's been given the right ingrediants to win is all.

If people can look at it objectively (not a strong point of mine BTW), this team is actually worse than last years team.

Markov, Bertuzzi and Lang are gone.

Markov was a very physical presence for us. I can only imagine how good we'd look with both him and Kronner on the blueline. Stuart's physical too, but not as much and he's more prone to mistakes. Basically, he's Lilja with better skating and hands.

Bertuzzi was hurt but he was still fairly effective. He scored some goals and at times threw his weight around. And other teams were weary of his presence on the ice.

Lang is lazy and he sucks. We all know that. But as much as he was despised the man was large and he could control the puck along the boards and win a lot of puck battles.

And lastly, Hasek was better last spring as well.

So basically we downgraded in four positions. In some cases drastically. Substituting Filpulla for Lang is a MASSIVE downgrade.

Franzen fills some of Bert's shoes but he's not as intimidating or has as much experience.

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The team is playing with as much fire and grit as they did against Calgary last spring?

This is the biggest thing, and our main problem (if we even have a problem, that has yet to be seen... the series is tied). I don't know how much of this you can pin on Ken Holland.

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I see the blame game and panic mode are already starting =/

Why exactly would Ken be fired if the team loses? Is he down there playing D or making the Coaching decisions?

And I really don't care if the dynasty fell into his lap or not, he's kept it going, which is more than can be said about a lot of GMs in any sport.

Somehow I knew that the forum would be like this when I logged in today.

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It gets my vote too.

But like monk said, Holland should go. How can Illitch not see that the President's Trophy is as useful as passing the puck to Sammy.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!

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I see the blame game and panic mode are already starting =/

Why exactly would Ken be fired if the team loses? Is he down there playing D or making the Coaching decisions?

And I really don't care if the dynasty fell into his lap or not, he's kept it going, which is more than can be said about a lot of GMs in any sport.

Somehow I knew that the forum would be like this when I logged in today.

He should be blamed for not addressing needs that everyone could see on the first day of training camp.

We needed to get grittier and deeper in the wings position.

Holland promised that there would be changes but then changed his tune saying he'd save money for the trade deadline. But then again he did nothing to address these glaring needs.

He let certain players walk (who were intracle to getting to the Conference Finals last year) and didn't fill their holes.

In my mind, with a half empty Joe most nights and a failure to win a Cup after winning the Presidents Trophy three years in a row*, Holland should be held responsible for not getting the right peices to win it all.

It's one thing to protect some of your future players if you're on the bubble for winning the Cup - say a Minnesota or Dallas. But when you get as close as the Wings were last season, you need to take a chance and grab the last peice of the puzzle. Filpulla and Hudler could have fetched some of those peices.

Yes, Filp might have a shot in becoming an 80 point center. But when? And will Lidstrom be around then? How about Rafalski? And will all our money still be tied up in 4 guys so we'd have to trade him anyway?

Being an NHL GM means taking risks at times. Holland has a track record of never taking them. Even more so now that there's a CAP.

I'm sure everyone on these boards wouldn't think twice in dealing anyone on this roster if it meant a Cup win. Even if it meant some down years afterwards.

* I know that Buffalo technically won the PT last season. But the Wings tied them in points.

Edited by Hank

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