Pens fan here...first post. NO SMACK!

[Dr Rosenrosen 0]

Are you saying that Gonchar has been paired with complete stiffs his whole time as a Penguin?

If so, then the debate is moot - it doesn't matter if Gonchar is better than Rafalski or not, because if the other five really are pylons, then they're going to be steamrolled.

I saw that coming. Who isn't a stiff compared to Lidstrom?

There's no doubt your top 4 are better and it's your biggest edge against most teams. I was making the point that the Rafalski/Gonchar +/- comparison is not a great argument for who's team is better. I think each guy/team is best in the current situation. I wouldn't trade if given the chance, though I'd take Rafalski to pair with Gonch in a heartbeat.

Gill is our only pylon, but he's a very big pylon with a long reach and long stick to go with great hands. He also gets the needed help when he actually has to skate somewhere, dragging the Zamboni chained to his waist.

Bottom line: Our team D is better than most people think because it only happened fairly recently.

[reggiedunlop 0]

Are you saying that Gonchar has been paired with complete stiffs his whole time as a Penguin?

If so, then the debate is moot - it doesn't matter if Gonchar is better than Rafalski or not, because if the other five really are pylons, then they're going to be steamrolled.

pylons that have the best team g.a.a in the playoffs

but keep underestimating them........ we love that

[David 2]

pylons that have the best team g.a.a in the playoffs

but keep underestimating them........ we love that

Yea, I'm sure you're used to people underestimating the Pens.

[DraperFan MN 0]

Come on. Gonchar Detroit's number 4 defenseman? Please. Take off the red blinders. Rafalski is good. Kronwall is decent too. But neither were talked about in connection with the Norris trophy this year. Gonchar wasn't plus 14 for no reason this year. Ask anyone in the league who, age and salary aside, whether they'd rather have Gonchar, Rafalski or Kronwall and all would choose Gonchar.

Speak for yourself. Honestly and objectively, I don't take Gonchar over Rafalski or Kronwall. I do take him over Stuart.

[DraperFan MN 0]

I was making the point that the Rafalski/Gonchar +/- comparison is not a great argument for who's team is better.

I don't care who you are a fan of, bringing in +/- into the argument is somewhat pointless. Even when it is really, really good or really, really bad it takes further analysis to reveal anything about the number itself.

[Dr Rosenrosen 0]

I don't care who you are a fan of, bringing in +/- into the argument is somewhat pointless. Even when it is really, really good or really, really bad it takes further analysis to reveal anything about the number itself.

Why do so many of you Detroit fans have to make SO MUCH SENSE!

[deker 0]

Speak for yourself. Honestly and objectively, I don't take Gonchar over Rafalski or Kronwall. I do take him over Stuart.

At face value, absolutely. I agree wholeheartedly. But many of these arguments are just saying "mine's better than yours." In our system, in the context of how the Detroit Red Wings are built, I would take Stuart over Gonchar because we've already got a number of defenseman that can move the puck and provide offense. If Gonchar were somehow available in this year's trade deadline, I would still take Stuart because he provides something we didn't have much of on the blueline. But yeah, if I were staffing an expansion team, I'd pick Gonchar over Stuart and maybe...just maybe, Rafalski.

Edited May 20, 2008 by deker

[Dr Rosenrosen 0]

At face value, absolutely. I agree wholeheartedly. But many of these arguments are just saying "mine's better than yours." In our system, in the context of how the Detroit Red Wings are built, I would take Stuart over Gonchar because we've already got a number of defenseman that can move the puck and provide offense. If Gonchar were somehow available in this year's trade deadline, I would still take Stuart because he provides something we didn't have much of on the blueline. But yeah, if I were staffing an expansion team, I'd pick Gonchar over Stuart and maybe...just maybe, Rafalski.

...depending on your needs. Again, too much sense being made here.

Must...

return...

to...

Cryers board!

[DraperFan MN 0]

Why do so many of you Detroit fans have to make SO MUCH SENSE!

Basically, we fans of the Winged Wheel are God's gift to hockey. You didn't know that?

[timothy1997 0]

Hello Everyone,

I decided to post after reading some posts on here and I must compliment all of you on your insight and knowledge of the game. I must admit that the Red Wings are my second favorite team in all 4 sports. I really found a new appreciation for Detroit after the Super Bowl a couple years back where Detroit felt like "home."

That being said, I am a die hard Pens fan as you are die hard Wings fans. With both teams us 3-0, I think it's a given that we will meet in the finals. Without being bias I think the series breaks down like this:

Offense: EVEN- I think that the Crosby-Hossa-Dupuis and the Malkin-Malone-Sykora line are 2 of the best in the NHL with as much firepower as anyone in the league. That being said Zetterberg-Datsyuk-Cleary and Holmstrom-Draper-Samuelsson are just as explosive. I see a very even series on offense. I may have to give a slight advantage to Detroit because of their experience. Jordan Stall is 19, Evgeni Malkin is 20, Sidney is 21.

Defense: DETROIT- Even though this is close as well, advantage because of Lidstrom. He is clearly the best offensive d-man in the league. I am not really familiar with the rest of the guys but with the way you guys play, I think they are a solid bunch. I am going to say now though...Gonchar, Whitney, Orpik and Gill may surpise you. The Rangers and Flyers had star power and were totally shut down by us. The conception among most is that Pittsburgh is weak on defense but, that is not fair.

Goaltending: EVEN- This may not be popular. However, Flurey is 11-1 in the playoffs and playing his best hockey right now. He is finally living up to his billing as the number 1 overall pick a couple years back! Osgood is a fantastic goalie as well and so I think this is even.

Special Teams: PENGUINS- On the PP, the Pens are flat out deadly. Crosby-Malkin-Hossa-Malone-Gonchar are on the firstline and they make teams pay on the PP. The Pens PK isn't bad either. They are killing close to 90% of the opponents PP in the playoffs.

Overall, this will be a series for the ages. I hope for everyones sake it goes 7 games. I thank you all for allowing me to put in my 2 cents on this board. Good day to you all.

hard to believe this was posted just a week ago. my how pens have had an eye opening.

[timothy1997 0]

School starts next week for your young Penguins.

[Xitium 272]

That was the exact post I was coming back to quote. Good job.

[eva unit zero 271]

1-Gonchar realized the "D" stands for Defenseman and not "Dude That Scores Goals."

2-Fleury found a mentor in Ty Conklin and confidence.

3-Letang and Kennedy became solid NHLers very quickly.

4-Ryan Malone finally figured it all out.

5-The team bought into a D-first mentalilty even without the greatest individual D-men in the league.

6-Shero found 2 wingers for Sid that play his style, one being a top scorer and the best back checking forward I've seen since a guy who wore #66 awhile back.

7-Our Big 2 are underrated defensively because they haven't built the league-wide reputation yet.

8-19 year-old Jordan Staal became one of the best shut-down centers in the league in his 2nd year.

9-And yes, Malkin became a beast when he got to be "The Man" for awhile.

1- Gonchar has looked better defensively this series than I can remember seeing him play. I'd still take Detroit's top three over him.

2- Fleury's found a mentor in Conklin. That's wonderful; who's Conklin's mentor? Because he's neither experienced nor very good.

3- Letang is a mediocre 2nd pairing defenseman who has some good puck skills and not much else. Kennedy is a dime a dozen checking line winger who doesn't bring any major advantage. I wouldn't call either 'solid' NHLers just as I wouldn't use that term on Lebda, Lilja, or McCarty.

4- Malone has done pretty well playing with Malkin on the second line. But then..so could I.

5- The Pens' team D is good enough to get them the puck against teams that aren't really very good at keeping it. That doesn't make it good team D.

6- Hossa is the best backchecker you've seen sinc Mario Lemieux? Given that at their best, neither was ever an elite defensive forward...you might be rethinking that statement after seeing much of the Wings team.

7- Malkin is the worst defensive forward in this series. Seriously. If I had to pick my shutdown center from Yashin, Gretzky, Janney, and Malkin he's the only guy on that list who wouldn't get consideration.

8- So Staal is one of the best shut-down centers in the league, even though Hossa is a better backchecker? If Hossa is really better defensively...then Staal is the fifth best defensive forward playing center this series.

9- Malkin needs to get with Roberts and work on his conditioning then, because he has been completely invisible save for pulling a couple Liljas.

[Xitium 272]

EPIC.

They have the guts to create a thread called "When will the Wings fans whine about the reffing?" then fire off this golden beauty.

EPIC FAIL.

To this, I laugh.

Ha.

[Opie 308]

EPIC.

They have the guts to create a thread called "When will the Wings fans whine about the reffing?" then fire off this golden beauty.

EPIC FAIL.

To this, I laugh.

Ha.

Best reply:

look, you have to be realistic here.....the Wings are playing like the '77 Canadiens out there & we are the equivalent of an AHL team right now.....their execution is flawless.....there is no shame in admitting who the better team is.....

[redwingfan19 293]

wow some guy actually made some massive list of the wings supposed "Non Calls" in games one and two. I guess the Pens and there fans are a lot a like, can't just seem to get over it and move on.

[McCartyFanForLife 17]

wow some guy actually made some massive list of the wings supposed "Non Calls" in games one and two. I guess the Pens and there fans are a lot a like, can't just seem to get over it and move on.

yeah, and they want a Wings fan to write a "reasonable response". Oh Please, I'm gonna answer every ticky tac penalty they think should or should not be called. Who cares if they go on another power play? They weren't gonna score.

[hillbillywingsfan 792]

i just want to know what happened to all of our pens fans that were posting on here? where did they all go? hahaha

[Graybeard 0]

i just want to know what happened to all of our pens fans that were posting on here? where did they all go? hahaha

Well I don't know about you but I'm not sure be back if I was them either. The way the first two games have broken down they have been proven wrong on every point.

Their two top stars are better than ours: FAIL

Their overwhelming offensive talent can't be stopped by ANY defense: FAIL

Their PP is the bomb: FAIL

Their depth in secondary scoring is better than ours: FAIL

Their team defense is the best in the league, underestimated by us, and will shut us down: FAIL Taken to school by Lidstrom and company on what real defense looks like.

Their goalie is better than ours: FAIL FAIL FAIL - Osgood will enter the HOF leaving a trail of smashed NHL records

They have the "best back checking forwad in the league": FAIL

Their youth will overcome our experience: FAIL

Our old guys will be sucking wind trying to keep up with their speedy kids: FAIL - It's Malkin who is whining about being tired. Tired from doing what I don't know. Stands around most of the game. Boy better get himself a conditioning coach in the off season.

They will steal a game at the Joe and win home ice advantage: FAIL

If they lose they always bounce back to win the next one: FAIL

Michel is coach of the year material: FAIL

They are unstoppable at Mellon Arena: Soon to be disproven

That's a lot of crow to be eating after coming here and talking smack. Ten bucks says they'll come flooding back if they win game three at the Mellon.

[Vladimir316 28]

EPIC.

They have the guts to create a thread called "When will the Wings fans whine about the reffing?" then fire off this golden beauty.

EPIC FAIL.

To this, I laugh.

Ha.

Haha great one.. I laughed my ass off...

[hallelujahlogic 1]

i just want to know what happened to all of our pens fans that were posting on here? where did they all go? hahaha

haha..i have a friend who lives in pittsburgh and is a big pens fan (a bandwagon pens fan, but really..who isn't?). we had a lot of healthy smack talking going on just before this series, and even after game 1 she said that it wasn't a big deal and that her guys would come back and win and blah blah blah. after last night...she is no longer returning my calls. or texts. or emails.

i imagine it's the same sort of situation w/all the pens fans that were posting here. they're just too darned embarassed to show their faces. and can you blame them?

[scotvm 0]

haha, the guy who made the massive list of non calls is clearly on some sort of narcotics. he states later in his post that, "The Detroit Red Wings are a fraud. Nicklas Lidstrom plays defense worse than Sergei Gonchar". but it seems like most of the other people posting in that thread have a lot more common sense and more of a realistic attitude toward each teams performance

[PaVel DaTsYuK fan13 0]

WOW that Pens thread was just too funny. It's as if they just expected Gary Betman to win the cup for them. Listening to their guys call Lidstrom a joke makes me want to puke out my ears.

This thread is embarassing. Almost as embarassing as the play of the penguins.

by far the best response by a Pens fan

[Matt 1,048]

Reviewing this thread and what I posted almost two weeks ago and I realize I scare myself sometimes, lol.

It does look like they've forgotten their notebooks, though. Shucks.

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

wow some guy actually made some massive list of the wings supposed "Non Calls" in games one and two. I guess the Pens and there fans are a lot a like, can't just seem to get over it and move on.

The real irony is the Sens, Rangers, and Flyers ALL whined and complained about the Pens not getting called for penalties - and the bad reffing in favor of the Pens. Now that the Pens are in the exact same situation - it's like they stole the playbooks for those teams - and are now the whiners and cryers themselves.

And if they don't like it now, wait to see how it feels when you have goals taken away from you by the refs (well one guy really).