Penguins franchise deserves no credit

[betterREDthandead 58]

Here comes all the crying Pens fans.

Forum rules:

· Members are not allowed to dicate vocally whether or not fans of an opposing team should post here. Members that attempt to discourage fans from opposing teams from posting here will have their Hockey Discussion posting privileges suspended.

Let's not get into that territory, OK? I don't see any of them "crying".

[Pens66 0]

Forum rules:

Let's not get into that territory, OK? I don't see any of them "crying".

Agreed. I just put up a post, supported by facts, that contributes in a productive manner and tries to turn a rather uninformed statement into a fair-minded discussion of the issues that the original poster brought up.

Throughout my post, I gave credit to the Wings for drafting well and being a sound organization.

I've yet to see more than one or two malicious posts from Pens fans.

All we want is a fair-sighted view of the series through Detroit goggles, so we can get a feel for how things might go, maybe pick up some insights we didn't see (we don't get to watch the Wings for 82 games, maybe 10-15 tops)...

Nobody is crying, we're talking hockey and having a good time.

[Pensfan 0]

The Penguins are proof that the way the draft works is really not fair, especially in the salary cap era. I say all 30 picks in the 1st round of the draft should be randomly selected, each team gets a 1/30 chance of getting the top pick. The Penguins suck for 5 years, get all those picks and now are suddenly one of the best, doesn't seem fair for all those other teams that were actually trying to win. The fact that there is a cap now means teams getting those high picks benefit even more because for the first couple of years they have those players for a relatively low salary. The fact that there is a cap now has taken away the excuse that a small market team can only build through the draft. I hate the Penguins.

Stay off the Rangers boards.

[betterREDthandead 58]

I'm not taking away from the fact that they have found some real diamonds in the rough. Having good hockey minds in your organization can take you a long, long way.

The problem is, the entire team isn't built through the draft.

If they were playing with nothing but some of the excellent late-round draft picks on the team, you'd be spot on.

Well, no, it's not. But without taking like an hour or two to figure this out, I'd be willing to bet the following:

- The Wings have as high a percentage of self-drafted players on the team as anyone in the league.

- Of those self-drafted players, their average draft position is lower than any team in the league.

Remember, judicious use of draft resources includes trading picks for quality players as well as drafting them.

Look at the Game 6 lineup:

Drafted: Datsyuk, Draper, Filppula, Helm, Holmstrom, Hudler, Kronwall, Lidstrom, McCarty, Zetterberg, Osgood.

Additionally, Lebda was signed as an undrafted FA.....pretty much the same thing.

I consider Ozzie and McCarty our draft picks....they were Wings forever and simply went on hiatus. Drake hasn't been a Wing for a long time, so he's different.

That's 5 of 6 on the top two lines, the goalie, and half the defense including two of the top three.

Chelios, Stuart, and Maltby were acquired in trades involving our draft picks - again, judicious use of resources as they've been steady contributors.

I think it's fair to say the Wings have made far and away the best use of draft resources of any team in the league. Year in and year out the worst draft standing, and yet here they are, Western Conference Champions.

[Pens66 0]

Well, no, it's not. But without taking like an hour or two to figure this out, I'd be willing to bet the following:

- The Wings have as high a percentage of self-drafted players on the team as anyone in the league.

- Of those self-drafted players, their average draft position is lower than any team in the league.

Remember, judicious use of draft resources includes trading picks for quality players as well as drafting them.

Look at the Game 6 lineup:

Drafted: Datsyuk, Draper, Filppula, Helm, Holmstrom, Hudler, Kronwall, Lidstrom, McCarty, Zetterberg, Osgood.

Additionally, Lebda was signed as an undrafted FA.....pretty much the same thing.

I consider Ozzie and McCarty our draft picks....they were Wings forever and simply went on hiatus. Drake hasn't been a Wing for a long time, so he's different.

That's 5 of 6 on the top two lines, the goalie, and half the defense including two of the top three.

Chelios, Stuart, and Maltby were acquired in trades involving our draft picks - again, judicious use of resources as they've been steady contributors.

I think it's fair to say the Wings have made far and away the best use of draft resources of any team in the league. Year in and year out the worst draft standing, and yet here they are, Western Conference Champions.

Thank you for a much more well-thought out post than the person to whom I was originally replying.

That poster didn't seem to be taking into account the concept of picks or prospects as a resource. I never once argued against the Wings being very effective at that, and in fact have made statements to support that idea.

My point, originally, was that if you give a team low picks year in and year out, and that is all that their team is built on, they will be losers. You even acknowledge that vicariously in your spot-on assertation that it's not just about who you draft, but about how you use your draft picks (trades, etc) as a team resource. The poster I was responding to, and the hypothetical situation which I was addressing to the OP of the thread to a greater extent, seemed to be stating that the Wings were built solely on their draft picks.

If they meant otherwise, I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Again, my original point was that in a random draft, even with a salary cap, eventually some teams would be left in the dust. The current system prevents anyone from getting too good or too bad, and that the Pens built their team fair and square just like the Wings, albeit through different avenues. OP seems to forget that every team had a chance at Crosby in that particular lottery. They did it in the fairest way possible.

Not to mention that the Pens were on top of the world for 10-11 years as well, just like the Wings have been. At some point, Detroit will inevitably hit some downtime, and will have to build the way the Pens have, just as those 90's Pens teams built in a somewhat similar manner to the Wings of today.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Pens66

[StevieY9802 6]

They had bad years and they totally deserve it because of it. If they had those bad years and didn't get compensated with high picks they would sitll be bad and probably not be in Pitt, which wouldn't be fair. And your argument about the salary cap is dumb. Wait a couple years when all of those high picks are up for big contracts. Its gonna be tough for the Pens to keep all of them and they will face some tough choices I would think. Malone I think is an UFA this year and Malkin is making under 1mil and is up for RFA next summer.

[Pens66 0]

They had bad years and they totally deserve it because of it. If they had those bad years and didn't get compensated with high picks they would sitll be bad and probably not be in Pitt, which wouldn't be fair. And your argument about the salary cap is dumb. Wait a couple years when all of those high picks are up for big contracts. Its gonna be tough for the Pens to keep all of them and they will face some tough choices I would think. Malone I think is an UFA this year and Malkin is making under 1mil and is up for RFA next summer.

Same point I've been trying to drive home since the OP.

It keeps teams from getting too high or too low. It has created parity in the league, nothing could be more fair.

[Jwo 7]

dude, I'm no pens fan by any mean but they sucked for five long years. Can you imagine watching a team play that bad year after year after year? They earned those high picks by sucking balls. There's a lottery now and they won Crosby fair and square in the lottery so I don't see anything wrong with what they've done. They just don't have a god like scouting department like the wings to find gems in the 5th and 7th round of thed raft.

We already do. The Detroit Lions and its crappy owner who needs to leave, William Clay Ford.

[edicius 3,269]

Just wait until we see the Leafs in about five years.

Oh wait...they're probably still going to suck then too.

[FireCaptain 563]

I second this.

Ugh, it is almost physically painful to read this board some days.

Maybe thats how Franzen got his headaches.

Pens fans, I'm sure you understand that the preceeding OP does not reflect the opinions of the rational posters on this board. You can see many of our own calling out the ridiculousness of this post. As we don't want the Pen trolls, so too should you not have to suffer ours.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

...said the fan of the team who won the President's Cup. Dude, what do have to whine about other than not having an easier team to play in the finals?

Well hell- I'll whine about the fact that the Penguins will be a difficult team to knock off!

I wanted the Wings to play the Bruins... but noooooo- the Malkin show had to win the east.

Seriously- the Pens recieved HUGE boosts by getting some luck from the Draft. BUT- they've managed their team very, very well in terms of making smart drafts, retaining the right players and staying on a specific course even through hard times. Obviously Crosby was a no-brainer of a draft but trading up for Flury looked like a terrible idea for the last few years- he didn't really earn his draft position until the playoffs this year. Many, many journalists and even Pens fans were lampooning Flurry for his poor play over the last few years. The Pens were seriously trying to replace him last summer, no? Well someone decided to stick with the kid and it's paid off well for them. Personally, I think Flurry would've been well served to stay in the minors until he was maturer (something I feel is necessary 99.9% of the time for a goalie), but he's come up big for the Pens at just the right time.

Look at Staal- this year he had a horrible time putting up time. Did the Pens move him? No- they were smart enough to know he's a gem of a player (and would look really good in a Wings uniform ) and they stood by him.

I am bitter that the Pens have lucked out with the draft in the past decade but the Islanders, Panthers and other bottem-feeders during that time seemed to have bad luck with, mismanage or poorly choose their picks. In the end, though, the Pens have managed to convert their lottery luck into a great team. Yes they got their picks by being a horrible, horrible team, but they certainly haven't squandered them like so many other teams have.

Regardless, the fact that the Pens can ice an insanely large number of high picks doesn't detract from the fact that they've assembled them into a great team. The fact remains that picks don't manage and coach themselves. And a group of good players doesn't magically assemble into a eastern conference champion team.

I may not be a Pens fan, but I do respect our opponent this round. The Wings are going to have to work hard to win the cup and I truly believe they'll kick some ass this year!

[Misty Belle 0]

Even a team like Detroit who was a bigger spender than the Pens, eventually with nothing but low picks they'd be putting a garbage team out there year after year,

please go and do some research on how many original draft choices we've had on our team the last 15 years.

After that go and research how many players we've acquired through trades for original draft choices (Maltby from Edm for org. draft choice D. Dan McGillis) and how many players we've acquired for cheap that weren't wanted by other teams (Kris Draper for $1 Winnepeg). Even when we acquired Brendan Shanahan we gave up an original drafted player (Ray Shepard and a draft pick).

Then go and research how many other teams could've drafted Lidstrom, Federov, Osgood, McCarty, Slava Kozlov, Niklas Kronvall, Mathieu Dandenault, Yzerman, Zetterburg and Datsyuk among the many others. Hell, we drafted Vladamir Konstantinov in the 11th round, 221st overall, anybody could've had him!

Then go talk to a Rangers fan and ask them what are the benefits of having a high payroll when you miss the playoffs. It's not as easy as it seems.

[Pens66 0]

please go and do some research on how many original draft choices we've had on our team the last 15 years.

After that go and research how many players we've acquired through trades for original draft choices (Maltby from Edm for org. draft choice D. Dan McGillis) and how many players we've acquired for cheap that weren't wanted by other teams (Kris Draper for $1 Winnepeg). Even when we acquired Brendan Shanahan we gave up an original drafted player (Ray Shepard and a draft pick).

Then go and research how many other teams could've drafted Lidstrom, Federov, Osgood, McCarty, Slava Kozlov, Niklas Kronvall, Mathieu Dandenault, Yzerman, Zetterburg and Datsyuk among the many others. Hell, we drafted Vladamir Konstantinov in the 11th round, 221st overall, anybody could've had him!

Then go talk to a Rangers fan and ask them what are the benefits of having a high payroll when you miss the playoffs. It's not as easy as it seems.

You obviously haven't read the entire thread, throughout which I've repeated almost exactly what you're saying here. I pointed out how many players you've acquired through the draft and trades for draft choices in my exchange with betterredthandead.

I'm well aware of the fact that the Wings draft well and use their draft picks wisely. The argument was not that. The argument was that if you don't augment it through trades/free agency, it's all for naught. The OP seems to think that Crosby and Malkin alone win games for the Pens. The basis of my arguments is that neither team is built entirely through the draft, but through a series of well-thought-out moves using their resources.

Please, before you retort in a manner that comes across in a negative way, read the rest of the thread. 99% of what you posted here is just echoing what I've been saying all along.

[DraperFan MN 0]

LOL...its OK...they're everywhere.....

You ain't kidding. This happens every playoff year, a bunch a new registrations....please look at the join date if you see moronic posts.

[Misty Belle 0]

You obviously haven't read the entire thread, throughout which I've repeated almost exactly what you're saying here. I pointed out how many players you've acquired through the draft and trades for draft choices in my exchange with betterredthandead.

I'm well aware of the fact that the Wings draft well and use their draft picks wisely. The argument was not that. The argument was that if you don't augment it through trades/free agency, it's all for naught. The OP seems to think that Crosby and Malkin alone win games for the Pens. The basis of my arguments is that neither team is built entirely through the draft, but through a series of well-thought-out moves using their resources.

Please, before you retort in a manner that comes across in a negative way, read the rest of the thread. 99% of what you posted here is just echoing what I've been saying all along.

yes I have read the entire thread I don't think you've read my post. We have augmented our team through trades/free agency (See Maltby, Draper, Shanahan in MY post) So what is your point? We've done it. You need to go back and re-read my post.

Don't come on a red wings board and insinuate we bought the cup or haven't singed good players either by drafting or FA.

How long has there been a salary cap in the NHL? How many times since then have the Detroit Red Wings won the President's trophy? Please don't insinuate we would be nowhere without any high draft choices, we haven't pick higher than about 28 for as long as I can remember and we're going for 4 cups since 1997. Thanks for playing.

[Dr Rosenrosen 0]

Don't come on a red wings board and insinuate we bought the cup or haven't singed good players either by drafting or FA.

I guess there's reading, then there's reading comprehension. Pens66: We also have a few people on our boards that like to create an argument when there is none, no?

[betterREDthandead 58]

Here's some more food for thought, for those who think the Pens situation is a no-brainer because of so many high draft picks: The Columbus Blue Jackets have been through 8 drafts and been in the top 10 every time. In fact in their entire history they've never picked lower than 8th. That doesn't change this year.

[ThreeRiversFan 0]

Here's some more food for thought, for those who think the Pens situation is a no-brainer because of so many high draft picks: The Columbus Blue Jackets have been through 8 drafts and been in the top 10 every time. In fact in their entire history they've never picked lower than 8th. That doesn't change this year.

Quoted for truth....good call

[pghkid 0]

The Penguins are proof that the way the draft works is really not fair, especially in the salary cap era. I say all 30 picks in the 1st round of the draft should be randomly selected, each team gets a 1/30 chance of getting the top pick. The Penguins suck for 5 years, get all those picks and now are suddenly one of the best, doesn't seem fair for all those other teams that were actually trying to win. The fact that there is a cap now means teams getting those high picks benefit even more because for the first couple of years they have those players for a relatively low salary. The fact that there is a cap now has taken away the excuse that a small market team can only build through the draft. I hate the Penguins.

this is by far the most uneducated thing i have seen on this forum. every sport in america does it the exact same way w/ the exception of the lottery, which actually makes it more fair. the pens made the playoffs for 12 straight years from 89 to 01, and won 2 cups in that span.

they lost alot of great players to last minute trades and bankruptcy issues after 01. jagr, lang, straka, kovolev, etc... and it took them only 4 years to rebuild the team back to playoff contention. and only 1 year to go from a first round playoff stomping to the finals.

you have no idea what your talking about. im sorry, i am not on here to pick fights but you are embarrasing your friends and those on this message board that actually know something about hockey.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

As a fan of hockey, I am offended by the stupidity of this thread.

You are a fool if you think the Pens don't deserve any credit for where they are today.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

The Penguins are proof that the way the draft works is really not fair, especially in the salary cap era. I say all 30 picks in the 1st round of the draft should be randomly selected, each team gets a 1/30 chance of getting the top pick. The Penguins suck for 5 years, get all those picks and now are suddenly one of the best, doesn't seem fair for all those other teams that were actually trying to win. The fact that there is a cap now means teams getting those high picks benefit even more because for the first couple of years they have those players for a relatively low salary. The fact that there is a cap now has taken away the excuse that a small market team can only build through the draft. I hate the Penguins.

You play within the rules set by a league and play with the cards that have been dealt to you. The Penguins have capitalized on those chances that have been given to them over the past few years, more than being fair and well within the rules.

As others with much more detailed posts have proven, you are acting bitter and are pretty off-base.

[imisssergei 0]

please go and do some research on how many original draft choices we've had on our team the last 15 years.

After that go and research how many players we've acquired through trades for original draft choices (Maltby from Edm for org. draft choice D. Dan McGillis) and how many players we've acquired for cheap that weren't wanted by other teams (Kris Draper for $1 Winnepeg). Even when we acquired Brendan Shanahan we gave up an original drafted player (Ray Shepard and a draft pick).

Then go and research how many other teams could've drafted Lidstrom, Federov, Osgood, McCarty, Slava Kozlov, Niklas Kronvall, Mathieu Dandenault, Yzerman, Zetterburg and Datsyuk among the many others. Hell, we drafted Vladamir Konstantinov in the 11th round, 221st overall, anybody could've had him!

Then go talk to a Rangers fan and ask them what are the benefits of having a high payroll when you miss the playoffs. It's not as easy as it seems.

If you want to call someone out on not doing research, you sure as hell better get your own examples right.

Detroit Red Wings traded Paul Coffey, Keith Primeau and 1st round selection (Nikos Tselios) in 1997 to the Hartford Whalers for Brendan Shanahan and Brian Glynn.

In the 1995-1996 campaign the Detroit Red Wings sent Ray Sheppard to the San Jose Sharks for Igor Larionov.

And not to sound too much like an ******* here, but it might help if you could spell the players names correctly:

Sheppard not Shepard

Fedorov not Federov

Zetterberg not Zettburg

In a few years the Pens will feel the constraints of the cap. Hell, they might feel it this summer if they can't find a way to retain Hossa. The Pens have drafted well, by no means have they done as much with their late round picks as Detroit, and Crosby fell into their lap.

Edited May 21, 2008 by imisssergei

[Manoir 70]

Can someone explain to me how the Penguins franchise deserves any credit? They had money issues so they couldn't field a competitive team. They get a bunch of top 5 picks and now they are a good team. How does that take any skill? I have much more respect for a team like Philly that signed free agents and made trades to get better and made some great late round picks and went form last place to the final four in 1 year.

[C-Dub 0]

The Penguins are proof that the way the draft works is really not fair, especially in the salary cap era. I say all 30 picks in the 1st round of the draft should be randomly selected, each team gets a 1/30 chance of getting the top pick. The Penguins suck for 5 years, get all those picks and now are suddenly one of the best, doesn't seem fair for all those other teams that were actually trying to win. The fact that there is a cap now means teams getting those high picks benefit even more because for the first couple of years they have those players for a relatively low salary. The fact that there is a cap now has taken away the excuse that a small market team can only build through the draft. I hate the Penguins.

Uhm, buddy? I am not sure if someone told you this before, but the point of the draft is to give those teams at the bottom of the barrel a chance to improve...for cheap...and a chance to keep the talent for at least a few years.

Yeah, that's why they have it in the NFL and NBA in the same way, cause, well, the franchises that were bad when you grew up want to win at least at some point in their lives, ya know? Like remember how pitiful the Indy Colts used to be? Or the Bengals? Of course, there are teams like the retard-Lions that could be given 20 picks in the first round and they'd still end up with 20 receivers that are probably worth a look late in the 2nd round (exaggeration!)

I was reading your post to the very end, convinced you must be straying in some sarcasm eventually, but man, that's what the draft is designed to do.

[imisssergei 0]

Can someone explain to me how the Penguins franchise deserves any credit? They had money issues so they couldn't field a competitive team. They get a bunch of top 5 picks and now they are a good team. How does that take any skill? I have much more respect for a team like Philly that signed free agents and made trades to get better and made some great late round picks and went form last place to the final four in 1 year.

Credit is due because Pittsburgh drafted well. Look at the Blue Jackets. Someone else pointed out they haven't drafted lower than 8th, EVER!! What do they have to show for it? Nash and Zherdev. Zherdev isn't even a PPG player. The Pens have made great use of their picks, while not trading away their future for a quick. They can't be 'blamed' for drafting Crosby, remember the Wings had just as much of an opportunity to get Crosby as the Pens did. Literally the ball just didn't drop in Detroit's favor.

So tell me this, how does Pittsburgh not deserve any credit, but Detroit does? They are one in the same when you look at the success stories, since the cap. Good drafting, smart trading, and the right UFA signings.