The Pens next year

[eva unit zero 271]

Eva, you've clearly demonstrated you don't know anything about Staal and his role in Pittsburgh. You should quit while you're beind but I know you won't.

Jordan Staal this season was always matched against oppoents top lines. Therrien is good with young players and I think he is being developed well. Jordan Staal will become an elite defensive forward. Perhaps not like Bob Gainey or Guy Carbonneau but I wouldn't be surprised if he did get that good. I've been very impressed by the defensive responsibility and smart decision-making displayed for a 19-year old.

Jordan Staal is a great asset for the Pens. He'll get much more than $2m. Comparing him to Sammy is crazy, man.

You clearly missed the bulk of what I was saying. I said that right now, they are comparable players. I didn't say Sammy will have a better FUTURE than Staal. The fact that Staal was matched up with top opposing forwards has more to do with the fact that he plays on a team that has a lot of one-dimensional forwards who don't play defense well than it does with any advantage over Samuelsson's defense.

But right now, both are solid defensive players who throw some hits and have decent size, to go with an ability to score 20 goals that hasn't been consistently displayed. Saying "Staal is only 19, he'll be a beast in a few years" does NOTHING to change that fact. If anything, this consensus that Staal is worth 3-4m for a 3 year deal only reinforces that anyone on this board who bashes Samuelsson is an ignorant fool who is talking out of their ass; because Sammy makes barely more than a million and he's producing at the same level as Staal is.

[Dabura 12,206]

I may be in the minority on this, but I don't think the Pens are "in trouble," as many people are claiming. True, they're at risk of losing a lot of players. But the thing is, a lot of those players are expendable. Management knows this, I'm sure, and I expect they're going to do exactly what they need to do, which is begin building the principle foundation for what they hope will be a dynasty. To that end, they'll look to cut off dead weight and become an increasingly leaner, hungrier, tighter unit over the coming seasons. I expect them to shop Malkin and get a huge return, tapping Hossa as his replacement. Sid may be the heart and soul of the team, but Hossa is pound-for-pound their best player right now and almost singlehandedly took the Wings to seven games. His defensive game will surely begin to rub off on Sid, and that will infect the whole team.

Staal will be there for the long haul, Orpik will almost certainly be back, Fleury's a franchise guy -- the Pens will be fine.

[Opie 308]

While players may be expendable skill wise or salary wise that does not mean they are replaceable chemistry wise.

A veteran player who has joined Pit in the off season for a run at the cup may not be as content to back check and bust his balls defensively while Malkin is cherry picking at center ice.

All Players, including Lids, are replaceable for one reason or another, but there are reasons why you don't see teams that go through a total revamping have the same success the following year.

Losing players, especially young ones who are playing and competing for a job, and then replacing them is easy as far as skill set, but not so easy if they are a leader on the ice, or play a role that another player isn't willing to do.

I wouldn't be surprised if Pit missed the playoffs or finished 1st in the east next year, it all depends on how/what they do this off season.

Where as a team like Det, SJ, Dal, Mon should be relatively in the same boat next year as they were this year.

[Guest CaliWingsNut]

I'm really curious to see how both colorado's and SJ's teams end up like after the offseason.

[Cern 0]

If Fleury doesnt buttcheek that 3rd goal into the net...is it a 7 game series...is it as close as it seems then?

Now we're getting into chaos-theory/quantum physics-esque speculation. If the third goal isn't scored, what's to say that the rest of the game would progress exactly the same way? Maybe Detroit would play a tighter defensive game, avoid that last-minute penalty, and win 2-1. Even if, for the sake of argument, they didn't and the Penguins do score, that's a tie game, not a Penguins win. Saying that that scenario would effectively result in a 7-game series is erroneous - Detroit could just as plausibly score the overtime GWG.

I could just as easily say "if the Penguins didn't score that third goal in Game 5, the series wouldn't have even had the illusion of being close in the first place". Ultimately it means jack.

Edited June 8, 2008 by Cern

[Anomalously 0]

You clearly missed the bulk of what I was saying. I said that right now, they are comparable players. I didn't say Sammy will have a better FUTURE than Staal. The fact that Staal was matched up with top opposing forwards has more to do with the fact that he plays on a team that has a lot of one-dimensional forwards who don't play defense well than it does with any advantage over Samuelsson's defense.

But right now, both are solid defensive players who throw some hits and have decent size, to go with an ability to score 20 goals that hasn't been consistently displayed. Saying "Staal is only 19, he'll be a beast in a few years" does NOTHING to change that fact. If anything, this consensus that Staal is worth 3-4m for a 3 year deal only reinforces that anyone on this board who bashes Samuelsson is an ignorant fool who is talking out of their ass; because Sammy makes barely more than a million and he's producing at the same level as Staal is.

eva, please refer to my previous post where I talk about the differences between the roles Samuelsson and Staal play. They have different roles and at 19 you get 5-year deals based on potential, not on past performance. That is how it works -- welcome to how the hockey world works. Cleary and Samuelsson have a similar number of points over the last two seasons! -- let's pay Samuelsson $14 million over 5 @ $2.8/year, since it's such an indication of how each plays.

Staal will be offered Cleary numbers and then his agent will say, "Jordan's 20 as an RFA July 1, 2009," and the numbers will go up from $3M to $5M.

[Glubki 17]

I may be in the minority on this, but I don't think the Pens are "in trouble," as many people are claiming. True, they're at risk of losing a lot of players. But the thing is, a lot of those players are expendable. Management knows this, I'm sure, and I expect they're going to do exactly what they need to do, which is begin building the principle foundation for what they hope will be a dynasty. To that end, they'll look to cut off dead weight and become an increasingly leaner, hungrier, tighter unit over the coming seasons. I expect them to shop Malkin and get a huge return, tapping Hossa as his replacement. Sid may be the heart and soul of the team, but Hossa is pound-for-pound their best player right now and almost singlehandedly took the Wings to seven games. His defensive game will surely begin to rub off on Sid, and that will infect the whole team.

Staal will be there for the long haul, Orpik will almost certainly be back, Fleury's a franchise guy -- the Pens will be fine.

If the Penguins overhaul their defense by adding some guys that can move the puck up the ice they will continue to be a contender. Eaton is injured too much, Sydor is past his prime, Gill is not a transitional defenseman and neither is Orpik. If they had a couple of more defensemen capable of making a quick first pass than they would be deadly 5 on 5.

[Doggy 130]

You clearly missed the bulk of what I was saying. I said that right now, they are comparable players. I didn't say Sammy will have a better FUTURE than Staal.

Eva, contracts are about where a player is going, not about where he's been. Past performance is an indicator used to determine this. How can you not understand this?

Samuelsson is not comparable.

The fact that Staal was matched up with top opposing forwards has more to do with the fact that he plays on a team that has a lot of one-dimensional forwards who don't play defense well than it does with any advantage over Samuelsson's defense.

Again... clueless.

[eva unit zero 271]

Eva, contracts are about where a player is going, not about where he's been. Past performance is an indicator used to determine this. How can you not understand this?

Samuelsson is not comparable.

Again... clueless.

Ok...do you anticipate Staal being worth $5m on average over the next 3-4 seasons?

Because I don't. Just for reference, centers whose cap hit was between 4.5m and 5.5m this past season are listed below:

Mats Sundin

Olli Jokinen

Peter Forsberg

Marc Savard

Michael Nylander

Patrice Bergeron

Saku Koivu

Jason Spezza

Jason Arnott

Now tell me, honestly...do you see Staal's AVERAGE season over the next few years fitting in properly with that group? From the third line?

Defensive specialists don't get paid the big money if they don't ALSO score. If Staal doesn't score, he doesn't get paid anywhere near that. If he stays on the third line as a defensive specialist, he probably is closer to 12 goals than 29 next year. If he moves to a scoring line, he's not helping the team as much unless it's as the second line center with Malkin converted to play the wing.

You're right. Contracts are about the future...which is why I valued Staal at nearly double what Samuelsson makes despite the fact that right now they are comparable level of players. Because Staal is likely to improve, while Sammy is not.

Look at it this way; if Samuelsson were 19, and Staal were 32...how much would they be worth?

And finally...

Samuelsson would have been on the first PK unit and would have been used primarily for his defense had he played for the Pens this season. He wasn't in Detroit because Detroit has a team full (literally) of defensively capable forwards. Sammy is probably one of the 120 best defensive forwards in the NHL, yet he plays very little PK time because his team is so deep with top penalty killers.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Eva, Sammy isnt even close to being a great defensive forward in the NHL. He is barely a good defensive player on Detroit.

Based on defence..

Zetterberg

Datsyuk

Draper

Cleary

Filpula

Maltby

Franzen

Drake

Holmstrom

Helm

All better then Samuelson, so he's better defensively then McCarty, Downey and Hartigan. Do you really think Samuelson is the kind of player who would be sucessful on a PK? I dont really know what to say to that, only this, if people think the Sammy bashers are bad, the Sammy extremists are worse.

[2probert4 8]

Thats bullcrap...Orpik debunked that bulls*** rumor yesterday

I read somewhere that the Rangers may offer Orpik a deal

[2probert4 8]

God...this is getting tiresome too....

What do you expect, its a Wings board....Theres more of the same on every teams board.

[Copenhagen848 58]

the pens won't be that good next year i don't think because some of the players won't come back b/c of the coach and they have to many UFA's its just a mess for them right now

I agree....the Pens had their shot this year. I don't think they'll be major Cup contenders again any time soon.

[egroen 384]

If the Penguins overhaul their defense by adding some guys that can move the puck up the ice they will continue to be a contender. Eaton is injured too much, Sydor is past his prime, Gill is not a transitional defenseman and neither is Orpik. If they had a couple of more defensemen capable of making a quick first pass than they would be deadly 5 on 5.

I agree... it will be interesting which direction Shero goes.

He could go in the direction stated above... letting Hossa and Malone go, possibly retaining Orpik and signing more for the blue line.

-Or-

He could sign Hossa, and possibly even Malone... let Orpik go and make further sacrifices on D to ensure Malkin, Hossa and Crosby can all be retained (that's approximately $25 million for three forwards).

I personally hope they move mountains to keep Hossa. This would ensure approximately half their team is AHL calibre players for years to come.

[ThreeRiversFan 0]

I read somewhere that the Rangers may offer Orpik a deal

Rangers have cap issues of their own

[ThreeRiversFan 0]

I agree....the Pens had their shot this year. I don't think they'll be major Cup contenders again any time soon.

You keep believing that.....

[Reds4Life 51]

Pens are gonna be fine, they will be a contender for years to come.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Eva, Sammy isnt even close to being a great defensive forward in the NHL. He is barely a good defensive player on Detroit.

Based on defence..

Zetterberg

Datsyuk

Draper

Cleary

Filpula

Maltby

Franzen

Drake

Holmstrom

Helm

All better then Samuelson, so he's better defensively then McCarty, Downey and Hartigan. Do you really think Samuelson is the kind of player who would be sucessful on a PK? I dont really know what to say to that, only this, if people think the Sammy bashers are bad, the Sammy extremists are worse.

How do you figure that? I would assume this is just your opinion because I can't see any solid reasoning as to why all these players are better defensively than Sammy.

No one in their right mind would argue that Sammy is better defensively than Z or Dats (because he isn't), but amongst forwards in the +/- category Sammy was 3rd in the regular season (behind Z and Dats) and 4th in the playoffs (behind Z, Dats and Franzen). Don't get me wrong, a guy like Draper is way better defensively than Sammy, but the point Eva was making is that guys like Sammy will pitch in the more frequent goal while playing solid defensively on a consistent basis.

The point is, Sammy is one of the best defensive forwards the Wings have and the numbers more than prove it. If people make the claim that he isn't good defensively, I would challenge them to show me concrete evidence of it, because the numbers absolutely say otherwise.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Never Forget Mac #25

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Rangers have cap issues of their own

Not after the conclusion of this season, they don't. The Rangers have 4 guys up front that were pulling in over $16 million who are now UFA's. There's plenty of wiggle room there to find some new guys, and there's no evidence to show that the Rangers will bring back Shanny for the type of contract he originally signed.

[Dabura 12,206]

While players may be expendable skill wise or salary wise that does not mean they are replaceable chemistry wise.

I don't get the sense this Pens team is tremendously tight, so I don't think cutting some guys loose will wreak havoc on team chemistry. Who knows, Malkin may even be bad for the locker room.

If the Penguins overhaul their defense by adding some guys that can move the puck up the ice they will continue to be a contender. Eaton is injured too much, Sydor is past his prime, Gill is not a transitional defenseman and neither is Orpik. If they had a couple of more defensemen capable of making a quick first pass than they would be deadly 5 on 5.

Agreed.

Edited June 9, 2008 by Dabura

[Doggy 130]

How do you figure that? I would assume this is just your opinion because I can't see any solid reasoning as to why all these players are better defensively than Sammy.

No one in their right mind would argue that Sammy is better defensively than Z or Dats (because he isn't), but amongst forwards in the +/- category Sammy was 3rd in the regular season (behind Z and Dats) and 4th in the playoffs (behind Z, Dats and Franzen). Don't get me wrong, a guy like Draper is way better defensively than Sammy, but the point Eva was making is that guys like Sammy will pitch in the more frequent goal while playing solid defensively on a consistent basis.

The point is, Sammy is one of the best defensive forwards the Wings have and the numbers more than prove it. If people make the claim that he isn't good defensively, I would challenge them to show me concrete evidence of it, because the numbers absolutely say otherwise.

I gotta say, the only ones you could argue that are worse than Sammy defensively are Helm and Holmstrom. But I don't think it really is an issue.

Anyway more on topic, the Pens will be a good team next season. Watch it happen.

[Graybeard 0]

I don't understand why Orpik doesn't get more love. Gonchar got all the hype coming into the series and played good, but not great hockey for the series. Orpik was like an uncaged animal back there. I think there were times that he hit every single one of our players on the ice, on the same shift. I don't have a clue how he played in the regular season but I was impressed from what I saw in the playoffs. As far as not making great passes to get the puck up ice, I would lay that on the forwards more than the D-men. They got almost zero support from their forwards who were constantly racing up ice hoping to get the long stretch pass. Orpik (or any Pens D-man for that matter) would do better if he had forwards like ours who are always supporting the D. For that matter Gonchar might actually have Norris potential if he got a little help from his forwards.

There are a lot of teams in the East who would improve with this guy on their blueline.

[Copenhagen848 58]

You keep believing that.....

Yes I will, thank you very much

[Opie 308]

I don't get the sense this Pens team is tremendously tight, so I don't think cutting some guys loose will wreak havoc on team chemistry. Who knows, Malkin may even be bad for the locker room.

A point which was probably emphasized by either Malkin's tear he went on when Sid was out of the lineup or by the fact he didn't show up for the finals until it was too late!

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I gotta say, the only ones you could argue that are worse than Sammy defensively are Helm and Holmstrom. But I don't think it really is an issue.

Anyway more on topic, the Pens will be a good team next season. Watch it happen.

Once again...Based on what?!?!

There is absolutely no concrete or numerical reasoning to support this claim. Once again, if people are going to rip Sammy for his defensive ability, I again challenge you to give a reason other than, "I gotta say, the only ones you could argue that are worse than Sammy defensively are Helm and Holmstrom."