Lidstrom and Osgood, do they get their numbers retired?

[Probert 5 For Fighting 0]

Osgood with Detroit already has one of the highest single-team wins records ever. After a full season next year, he will pass Mike Richter (NYR), Patrick Roy (Mtl), Turk Broda (Tor). That will leave only Jacques Plante (Mtl), Martin Brodeur (NJ), Terry Sawchuk (Det) and Tony Esposito (Chi) as guys who have won more games in a single uniform. Brodeur is the only one that could be considered out of reach for Osgood. If he finishes as the all-time wins leader on the Wings, and second only to Brodeur among single-team wins...how can he NOT get his number retired? For all the talk about 'Osgood played on a great team' there is no talk comparing the 90s/00s Wings to the 80s Oilers or Islanders, the 70s Canadiens, or any of the other 'best teams of all-time' that many of the other goaltenders on that list played behind. So it's unreasonable to say his numbers came from great teams when other "better " goaltenders who played on better teams didn't post Ozzie's numbers, isn't it?

HHOF lock...and if he keeps up his play (which is likely) then he should have his jersey hanging from the rafters.

Wins are a poor barometer of a guys HOF worthiness. I'm not naive enough to cut and paste a guys W-L record and determine his case based on such cut-and-dry numbers. The bottom line is this: The best coach in NHL history didn't have enough confidence in him to make him a bonafide #1 goaltender at any point in his career. His career save percentage is a barely-above average .907 - and this was during the deadpuck era, when save percentages were routinely above .915. His career GAA is also average for a deadpuck goalie, at 2.43. If you do enough research, I think you'd find that 99% of goalies who post similar career GAA/S% numbers average nowhere near as many wins as Ozzie per season - making the point that he's the product of a great system fairly obvious.

Wins are not personal numbers. Playing them off as such is foolish - it's like bragging about a pitcher who wins 18 games but posts an ERA over 4 and a WHIP over 1.3. Roberto Luongo's W-L record might have sucked in Florida, but he was better than Ozzie at any point in his career during any of his seasons there from 2001-2006.

Call him a HOF lock all you want. Thankfully, nobody that matters in HOF voting will think that way. Guaranteed. It's not a knock on Ozzie, just a defense of what the HOF is truly supposed to be about.

[redwings1914 18]

Yes for Lidstrom, Yes for Osgood if he gets the Wings all time wins record or if he were to win another Cup.

[redwings1914 18]

IIRC, no numbers were hung until after the team moved to the Joe.

IIRC the only number to be up in the Joe was Gordie's until either Able and Sawchuk (there's was the same night or a couple a nights apart) or Delvecchio.

[HenryMalredo 2]

Osgood with Detroit already has one of the highest single-team wins records ever. After a full season next year, he will pass Mike Richter (NYR), Patrick Roy (Mtl), Turk Broda (Tor). That will leave only Jacques Plante (Mtl), Martin Brodeur (NJ), Terry Sawchuk (Det) and Tony Esposito (Chi) as guys who have won more games in a single uniform. Brodeur is the only one that could be considered out of reach for Osgood. If he finishes as the all-time wins leader on the Wings, and second only to Brodeur among single-team wins...how can he NOT get his number retired?

How are single teams wins records even this important? By this arguement he's better than Gump Worsley, Glenn Hall, and Dominik Hasek. Osgood is number 2 on the Wings list because of consistency and longevity on a great team, and the fact that the Wings have had crap in goal since Sawchuck left.

[Hank Dats 'N Homer 81]

I think Lidstrom will have his number retired. But right now he's the only one that probably will

Osgood. I think he's a great goaltender, but is he the caliber of player as Yzerman, Sawchuk, Delvecchio, Lindsay, Abel, and Howe.... No. If you retire Ozzie, you might as well retire Tim Cheveldae.... Not gonna happen.

At one time I would have considered Marty Lapointe and maybe Sergei Fedorov. I remember that some people thought that Marty LaPointe could have been the next captain after Yzerman.

Im not trying to start a fight or anything and this is nothing personal but how can you even compare Ozzie and Cheveldae? he only played what 3 seasons for the wings? Yeah he was a good goalie and played alot of games for us, and even make 1 or 2 allstar games, but i dont remember him ever taking us past the first round in the playoffs(correct me if im wrong please, im not sure, basing this off memory). I just dont think this is a fiar comparrisons seeing as Ozzie has taken us to Two stanley cups. He may not have played as many regualr season games as Tim but he Quality of play in my book out played a guy like Cheveldae, not to mention he has doubled his amount of years with the team.

[redwinger4747 6]

Of the current Wings, Lidstrom only as of now. IF, and I mean IF, we happen to win a couple more cups in the next few years behind Osgood and he makes an All Star game or 2, we could be having a different conversation about him. TEN years from now, we MIGHT say something about Datsyuk and/or Zetterberg. But Jersey retirement is a very, VERY serious thing. As of now, Lidstrom, period.

[Hank Dats 'N Homer 81]

Wins are a poor barometer of a guys HOF worthiness. I'm not naive enough to cut and paste a guys W-L record and determine his case based on such cut-and-dry numbers. The bottom line is this: The best coach in NHL history didn't have enough confidence in him to make him a bonafide #1 goaltender at any point in his career. His career save percentage is a barely-above average .907 - and this was during the deadpuck era, when save percentages were routinely above .915. His career GAA is also average for a deadpuck goalie, at 2.43. If you do enough research, I think you'd find that 99% of goalies who post similar career GAA/S% numbers average nowhere near as many wins as Ozzie per season - making the point that he's the product of a great system fairly obvious.

Wins are not personal numbers. Playing them off as such is foolish - it's like bragging about a pitcher who wins 18 games but posts an ERA over 4 and a WHIP over 1.3. Roberto Luongo's W-L record might have sucked in Florida, but he was better than Ozzie at any point in his career during any of his seasons there from 2001-2006.

Call him a HOF lock all you want. Thankfully, nobody that matters in HOF voting will think that way. Guaranteed. It's not a knock on Ozzie, just a defense of what the HOF is truly supposed to be about.

I think your whole Deadpuck era thing is a relavent argument, however, Ozzie has restructured his whole stlye of hockey. I dont have the stats and numbers like you do to back it up or anyhting, but this year his Numbers in GAA went way down and his Save % went way up and this was during a season that saw a reduction is goalie equiptment and a rise in goals. I think that if you are going to add the factor of the Deadpuck era you have to add the era (2007/08 season) as well. And after Ozzie restructured his style and still post numbers that out did goalies throughout the league, well i think it speaks wonders for his abilities as a goaltender. Am i saying hes worthy because of one season? No, but if you factor in what he has done in the past, and factor in what he will hopefully do in the future, i think he is a shoe in. But thats just me.

[RockyMountainWingGal 108]

Obviously Lidstrom. But I would prefer to not discuss Nick retiring and jersey hangings until that sad, sad moment comes to fruition.

[Hank Dats 'N Homer 81]

Obviously Lidstrom. But I would prefer to not discuss Nick retiring and jersey hangings until that sad, sad moment comes to fruition.

Haha this is a post i can fully respect. Amen!

[91to-the-rafters 0]

It's tough to compare the players whose numbers were retired in the '50's to the recent Cup winners. Besides the no-brainer (Lidstrom), the next group to be looked at are Fedorov, Shanahan, Osgood, and Draper. Feds may have been the best player from the mid nineties through the 2002 Cup run. He played for 14 seasons with the club, has HOF credentials, and any or all of the Stanley Cup's may have been in doubt without his presence. Had he not left a sour taste in fans mouths, he would be as in as Lids.

Draper may not have the stats, but he was/is part of the heart and soul of the franchise since his face got re-arranged by the wall on the Lemieux hit. He has a lot of x factors and should be considered when the time comes.

Ozzie has some work to do. Another Cup run would cement his spot in the rafters, but he's almost in the ball park.

Shanny had good longetivity with the club, HOF stats, and was a central core figure of three championship teams. He is my least likely candidate, but I wouldn't complain if his number was retired.

These four do not have perfect resumes for ceiling consideration, but it also isn't right to have five members from the previous generation of cup winners and only two on the '97-2002 version. Get two or three more numbers up there when the time comes!

[eva unit zero 271]

How are single teams wins records even this important? By this arguement he's better than Gump Worsley, Glenn Hall, and Dominik Hasek. Osgood is number 2 on the Wings list because of consistency and longevity on a great team, and the fact that the Wings have had crap in goal since Sawchuck left.

Because it shows how long a guy has played well with one team.

If a guy wins a lot of games in one team's jersey, then he was good enough to be a starting goaltender on a good team for a long time. It doesn't say whether a guy is a better All-Time player..but does give one indication of whether that player is worthy of jersey retirement with one particular team.

Oh, and btw...Osgood is the only goalie to truly contend for the title of 'best goalie in the NHL' in a Wings uniform since Terry Sawchuk. Just for those of you throwing out (or getting ready to) things like "Ozzie=Cheveldae" and "Hasek is the second best Wings goalie in everz!!!"

Fact: Chris Osgood is first or second in every important goaltending category in Red Wings history. The fact that he is challenging or beating pretty much every Wings goaltending record is a pretty strong indication of the fact that he has been the best Wings goaltender after Sawchuk. Ultimately, if Ozzie hadn't been stuck with the undeserved 'average goalie on a great team' tag early in his career, he would have at least one Vezina by now. And he might have won three Cups instead of two.

[The Noodle 39 14]

Osgood with Detroit already has one of the highest single-team wins records ever. After a full season next year, he will pass Mike Richter (NYR), Patrick Roy (Mtl), Turk Broda (Tor). That will leave only Jacques Plante (Mtl), Martin Brodeur (NJ), Terry Sawchuk (Det) and Tony Esposito (Chi) as guys who have won more games in a single uniform. Brodeur is the only one that could be considered out of reach for Osgood. If he finishes as the all-time wins leader on the Wings, and second only to Brodeur among single-team wins...how can he NOT get his number retired? For all the talk about 'Osgood played on a great team' there is no talk comparing the 90s/00s Wings to the 80s Oilers or Islanders, the 70s Canadiens, or any of the other 'best teams of all-time' that many of the other goaltenders on that list played behind. So it's unreasonable to say his numbers came from great teams when other "better " goaltenders who played on better teams didn't post Ozzie's numbers, isn't it?

HHOF lock...and if he keeps up his play (which is likely) then he should have his jersey hanging from the rafters.

Lidstrom definitly but Ozzie is just not and never has been an elite goalie. Yes he has all those wins and cups with Detroit but lets get serious folks. Is Osgood one of the best goalies of all time? No. Ozzie has acomplished a lot of team oriented accolades but his name should not be up there with Sawchuk!!

Now with that said Osgood has some work ahead of him and with this season and hopefully many more great seasons it could be a possibility because he is not the Osgood of old and has re tooled himself as a goalie.

[eva unit zero 271]

It's tough to compare the players whose numbers were retired in the '50's

No players' numbers were retired in the 50s. Of numbers hanging from the JLA rafters, only Howe and Delvecchio were retired before 1990. Howe's in 1971 when he left the Wings. Shortly thereafter, Delvecchio's was retired and then later unretired, and then retired again in 1991. Lindsay, Abel, and Sawchuk were all retired in the 90s.

to the recent Cup winners. Besides the no-brainer (Lidstrom), the next group to be looked at are Fedorov, Shanahan, Osgood, and Draper. Feds may have been the best player from the mid nineties through the 2002 Cup run. He played for 14 seasons with the club, has HOF credentials, and any or all of the Stanley Cup's may have been in doubt without his presence. Had he not left a sour taste in fans mouths, he would be as in as Lids.

Draper may not have the stats, but he was/is part of the heart and soul of the franchise since his face got re-arranged by the wall on the Lemieux hit. He has a lot of x factors and should be considered when the time comes.

Ozzie has some work to do. Another Cup run would cement his spot in the rafters, but he's almost in the ball park.

Shanny had good longetivity with the club, HOF stats, and was a central core figure of three championship teams. He is my least likely candidate, but I wouldn't complain if his number was retired.

These four do not have perfect resumes for ceiling consideration, but it also isn't right to have five members from the previous generation of cup winners and only two on the '97-2002 version. Get two or three more numbers up there when the time comes!

The only two players after Lidstrom who even get a look are Fedorov and Osgood. Shanahan left the club in the same fashion as Fedorov did, but wasn't villianized for it because he wasn't the team's best forward at the time. Fedorov had HOF stats when he left Detroit, and would be a lock had he stayed. The popular sentiment regarding him is enough to keep it from happening, but if he comes back that may change.

Osgood is the only player who has been important enough in the regular season and playoffs long-term AND is currently in good standing with the organization.

Draper is a career third liner who has had a couple notable seasons but has basically been a support player. If you hang Draper's number, you have to do the same for the following guys that he played with who played on the top two forward lines or defensive pairs, or were the starting goalie during a Cup season:

Larionov, Kozlov, Fedorov, Shanahan, Sandstrom, McCarty, Datsyuk, Zetterberg,

Holmstrom, Devereaux, Hull, Filppula, Franzen, Samuelsson, Konstantinov, Lidstrom, Fetisov, Murphy, Eriksson, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Vernon, Osgood, Hasek.

In other words...please NEVER bring up Draper's name in the context of seriously suggesting jersey retirement. He's not that good or important to the team, never has been, and never will be.

[Majsheppard 203]

I think Osgood gets another cup, and breaks the top 10 all time wins. He will have to have his number retired by us after that.

I think it may be contingent on winning another one, but its hard to say.

Remember this was a guy that got ran out of town. Becoming a born-again Wing and cup hero has given him grace, but has it given him 30 for all time?

I am just happy this bull about him being the "worst goaltender to ever win the cup," is over. He still has the moniker of most underated goaltender in my book.

[eva unit zero 271]

Wins are a poor barometer of a guys HOF worthiness. I'm not naive enough to cut and paste a guys W-L record and determine his case based on such cut-and-dry numbers. The bottom line is this: The best coach in NHL history didn't have enough confidence in him to make him a bonafide #1 goaltender at any point in his career. His career save percentage is a barely-above average .907 - and this was during the deadpuck era, when save percentages were routinely above .915. His career GAA is also average for a deadpuck goalie, at 2.43. If you do enough research, I think you'd find that 99% of goalies who post similar career GAA/S% numbers average nowhere near as many wins as Ozzie per season - making the point that he's the product of a great system fairly obvious.

Wins are not personal numbers. Playing them off as such is foolish - it's like bragging about a pitcher who wins 18 games but posts an ERA over 4 and a WHIP over 1.3. Roberto Luongo's W-L record might have sucked in Florida, but he was better than Ozzie at any point in his career during any of his seasons there from 2001-2006.

Call him a HOF lock all you want. Thankfully, nobody that matters in HOF voting will think that way. Guaranteed. It's not a knock on Ozzie, just a defense of what the HOF is truly supposed to be about.

He is a HOF lock. You don't win 400 games (which will happen either next year or the year after) in the NHL, as well as start for two Cups, and NOT make the Hall. Brodeur was considered a HOF lock when he had 324 wins, two Cups, and no Vezinas. Why doesn't 363 wins, two Cups, and no Vezinas put Ozzie in the same seat? Brodeur's team has been just as good as Osgood's; better defensively, in fact.

How come Osgood with comparable career accomplishments is a 'maybe if he wins another Cup' yet Brodeur was an absolute lock?

And as far as Ozzie's GAA, in many seasons he has either lead the league or been among the league leaders in GAA. Say what you want about 'dead puck' era...but his GAA is still better than most guys to play in the same period of time.

[Vladiator 116]

Obviously agreed that Lid's number will be retired

Ozzie ... If he can lead to a repeat this year, then yes.

Feds ... Um if he finishes out his career with the Wings and gets the CS then maybe.

Shanny .. see Feds

Drapes ... Man I think that he is the hardest and easiest at times to consider. Only time will tell.

[Hank Dats 'N Homer 81]

Obviously agreed that Lid's number will be retired

Ozzie ... If he can lead to a repeat this year, then yes.

Feds ... Um if he finishes out his career with the Wings and gets the CS then maybe.

Shanny .. see Feds

Drapes ... Man I think that he is the hardest and easiest at times to consider. Only time will tell.

I love Drapes but i dunno if he is worthy or not. He plays his best day in and day out, that is not debatable, i just dont think his best is worth jersey retirement. You really have to have that Extra umph, and for forwards that means a great offenseive standout or great contribution to a team success that i dont think he really has. Dont get me wrong, hes a great player, just not jersey retirement great.

[91to-the-rafters 0]

No players' numbers were retired in the 50s. Of numbers hanging from the JLA rafters, only Howe and Delvecchio were retired before 1990. Howe's in 1971 when he left the Wings. Shortly thereafter, Delvecchio's was retired and then later unretired, and then retired again in 1991. Lindsay, Abel, and Sawchuk were all retired in the 90s.

Whether the numbers were retired in '57, '71, 91, or '01, the fact is five players numbers were retired from that era.

The only two players after Lidstrom who even get a look are Fedorov and Osgood. Shanahan left the club in the same fashion as Fedorov did, but wasn't villianized for it because he wasn't the team's best forward at the time. Fedorov had HOF stats when he left Detroit, and would be a lock had he stayed. The popular sentiment regarding him is enough to keep it from happening, but if he comes back that may change.

Osgood is the only player who has been important enough in the regular season and playoffs long-term AND is currently in good standing with the organization.

Draper is a career third liner who has had a couple notable seasons but has basically been a support player. If you hang Draper's number, you have to do the same for the following guys that he played with who played on the top two forward lines or defensive pairs, or were the starting goalie during a Cup season:

Larionov, Kozlov, Fedorov, Shanahan, Sandstrom, McCarty, Datsyuk, Zetterberg,

Holmstrom, Devereaux, Hull, Filppula, Franzen, Samuelsson, Konstantinov, Lidstrom, Fetisov, Murphy, Eriksson, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, Vernon, Osgood, Hasek.

In other words...please NEVER bring up Draper's name in the context of seriously suggesting jersey retirement. He's not that good or important to the team, never has been, and never will be.

I bring up Draper, as I said, not because of stats.... he just happens to represent the spirit of the team and organization for the past 12 seasons. Something all others that were mentioned only had a hand in, if that. Multiple Cups aren't won without a "career third liner" who brings a sense of purpose to the rest of the team. Draper has been that guy for more than a decade! People who don't think Draper is not that "good or important to the team" have seriously missed the picture of what has gone on for the past 12 years!

[C-TownWing 0]

Osgood with Detroit already has one of the highest single-team wins records ever. After a full season next year, he will pass Mike Richter (NYR), Patrick Roy (Mtl), Turk Broda (Tor). That will leave only Jacques Plante (Mtl), Martin Brodeur (NJ), Terry Sawchuk (Det) and Tony Esposito (Chi) as guys who have won more games in a single uniform. Brodeur is the only one that could be considered out of reach for Osgood. If he finishes as the all-time wins leader on the Wings, and second only to Brodeur among single-team wins...how can he NOT get his number retired? For all the talk about 'Osgood played on a great team' there is no talk comparing the 90s/00s Wings to the 80s Oilers or Islanders, the 70s Canadiens, or any of the other 'best teams of all-time' that many of the other goaltenders on that list played behind. So it's unreasonable to say his numbers came from great teams when other "better " goaltenders who played on better teams didn't post Ozzie's numbers, isn't it?

HHOF lock...and if he keeps up his play (which is likely) then he should have his jersey hanging from the rafters.

I ABSOLUTELY HATE the "he's on a good team, therefore he's not that good" logic. It's beyond stupid, so it's nice to see someone else tear it down. Did Sawchuk not play for good teams at the peak of his career with the 50s Wings? The Habs guys like Dryden and Plante must REALLY suck, all those teams did was win Cup after Cup! Brodeur? He's garbage too, the Devils have been too good during his career. Bower, Roy, Parent...nope. Hasek was really good until he joined the Wings and started winning Cups. I guess that leaves Roberto Luongo is the best goalie ever. Gilles Meloche is a close 2nd.

In all seriousness, Chris Osgood is, at worst, the 2nd best goaltender in Wings history by any objective measure out there. He deserves consideration for sure.

Slightly different way to look at things: the early 50s Wings won 4 Cups, and the retirements of every number besides Yzerman (1, 7, 9, 10, 12--5 players) came about at least in part because of that run. Why is it then so unreasonable to take four players from the run of the last 15 years? In my perfect world, that's Yzerman, Lidstrom, Osgood, Fedorov.

[VM1138 1,921]

Retiring numbers is supposed to be a hugely special event. I do think that this generation is the best since the 50s. And since the 50s generation is draped all over the roof of the Joe, it's understandable that this generation will be equally represented (what....4 retired numbers)?

I was thinking of this earlier. The 90s-00s is more of a "Glory Days" than the 1950s, except for in number of Cups won. We're witnessing amazing history.

I think Lids gets retired, which would put this generation up to two retired numbers. I expect Datsyuk and Zetterberg to be retired IF they keep up their play and play their entire careers with Detroit. That would make 4. Seems about right.

I love Ozzie, too, but he hasn't been the most amazing player on the Wings the past 15 years.

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

ozzie's number should at the very least be discontinued for a couple of decades if not retired

he's been a big part of every cup besides '02 and a big part of some of the earlier runs in the 90's

[Guest redwingsfan04]

i say retire Ozzy and draper and LIDS!!! the caps represent the most important!

[Reilly 24]

Fedorov is among the all-time leading Red Wings in total points. Numerous trophies and, as of now, the best Russian to ever play in the NHL. His number is going up. His career was basically over when he signed with Anaheim.

Lidstrom, yes.

Osgood, No. Not right now anyway. He needs like a Vezina trophy and/or another Cup.

Shanahan, No. His best seasons were before Detroit. Plus he "always wanted to play for New York." Bye Shanny.

Edited June 10, 2008 by Reilly

[Shaman 713]

As I said, Ozzie needs atleast another cup, maybe 2. If he can get us 2 more cups in 3 years, 30 will be his forever and ever... If he gets one and a CS, than its his. Other than that i dont see it happening.

[Kira 451]

Nick - this is a no-brainer. If he doesn't get his number retired, something is seriously wrong.

Ozzie - I don't know about retiring his number, but I can see him having a legit argument for the HOF.